Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Draka]

How about this: That the most important points about the story of Jesus would be retained and that perhaps a few of the details may have been lost

What does that have to do with your life story? Word for word statements you made? I am asking about how you feel your life and words would be represented if they were only transmitted my word of mouth until someone you never knew decided to write them down decades after your death.

 

[waitasec]

How about this: That the most important points about the story of Jesus would be retained and that perhaps a few of the details may have been lost

you mean points like this?
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
matthew 10:5,6.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

What does that have to do with your life story? Word for word statements you made? I am asking about how you feel your life and words would be represented if they were only transmitted my word of mouth until someone you never knew decided to write them down decades after your death.

My life story isn't important enough to get right. If life and death hung on the foundations of what my life was all about. Or, if at the very least, people believed that life and death hung on it's foundation plus those people were EXPERTS at transmitting oral stories I think they'd get the most important parts right. They might not get right what my favorite food was or my favorite color however. They might say I did something great in the town of Phoenix Arizona when in reality I did that same deed in Las Vegas.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

When do you date the death of Jesus?

Earlychristianwritings.com gives 50 - 60 as the date range for 1 Corinthians. Are you saying that the creed within it is dated to a different time than the rest of the letter?

If so, then what do you think this implies about the authorship of the letter?

That Paul thought the early creed was the word of God.

 

[Draka]

My life story isn't important enough to get right. If life and death hung on the foundations of what my life was all about. Or, if at the very least, people believed that life and death hung on it's foundation plus those people were EXPERTS at transmitting oral stories I think they'd get the most important parts right. They might not get right what my favorite food was or my favorite color however. They might say I did something great in the town of Phoenix Arizona when in reality I did that same deed in Las Vegas.

Your opinion of yourself and your life notwithstanding, do you honestly think that, overall, your story would be accurate? Would your words be right? Do you think that your words could be even slightly misquoted through the years? Or the meanings taken out of context or just flat out interpreted wrongly? Do you think it would upset you if you meant one thing and everyone took it to mean something else? Do you think that it is possible to skew the meaning of one statement by the mere switching of a couple words? ...Would your story, your words, be accurate?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Your opinion of yourself and your life notwithstanding, do you honestly think that, overall, your story would be accurate? Would your words be right? Do you think that your words could be even slightly misquoted through the years? Or the meanings taken out of context or just flat out interpreted wrongly? Do you think it would upset you if you meant one thing and everyone took it to mean something else? Do you think that it is possible to skew the meaning of one statement by the mere switching of a couple words? ...Would your story, your words, be accurate?

Since I'm Joe Blow and no one outside my mother cares what the details of my life are much less if they transmit the details of it properly, my guess is that most of my life story would be lost in about 10 minutes. After about a day all that would be left is :there once was a guy named j something.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

you mean points like this?
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
matthew 10:5,6.

Christians believe that God's plan was to start his redemptive work with the Jews but that the end result is that all the nations of the world would be reached and blessed by what he started. These are Jesus's words:

"Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matt 24:12-14

 

[Draka]

Well, I'm sort of impressed. You finally kind of answered the question I asked from 4 pages back. I take that as "it would not be accurate".

Now, what makes you think that everyone who came into contact with the story of Jesus actually held it at the same level of importance? How confident can you be that everyone involved got his words right? I mean, the biggest and most important thing about Jesus was supposed to be his words right? His "message". If anyone didn't quote his words exactly as he spoke them then do they really carry the same meaning? Can it really be said that he said them at all? Stories and myths like this have a tendency to be embellished. Exaggerated. And sometimes they are communicated by someone who did not truly understand what was originally meant, so they try to explain them as they understood it. Which might not be what was intended at all. Not to even mention the clear and great possibility that the man referred to did not exist or was not what he was taken to be or may have claimed to be. As legends and tales are passed on they seem to grow. The boulder moved becomes bigger and heavier. The enemies become greater in number. The acts become more fantastic and the claims become more phenomenal. When all is said and done, the whole story could be referring to some random carpenter who told people to be nice to each other or his dad would get mad and punish them. Or, much more likely, the bible is a book of mythologies and legends, much the same as any other collection of mythologies, that are meant to communicate and speak to the human condition and our place in this physical and spiritual world and how they interact.

All this said, it becomes quite clear that there are many possibilities to consider when it comes to the story of Christianity and the vast majority of them do not support it actually being based on real fact. This being the case, it is presumptuous and wrong to try to claim that it holds the only "truth" there is and to tell people that they should believe it. If someone believes it because their own experiences bring them to that path, then that is fine. But to insinuate that it is the only possible truth and that it is substantiated by fact is dishonest at best.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The good news is that he didn't go into some cave and hear a "revelation" from an angel, then come out and tell everyone they had to take his word for it. He was a preacher and a public figure with a lot of followers. TONS of people would've heard his words, witness his life, and would be there to confirm the accuracy.

 

[McBell]

TONS of people would've heard his words, witness his life, and would be there to confirm the accuracy.

And yet they didn't...

 

[waitasec]

Christians believe that God's plan was to start his redemptive work with the Jews but that the end result is that all the nations of the world would be reached and blessed by what he started. These are Jesus's words:

"Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matt 24:12-14

you failed to mention
vs 11 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

hmmm, 33% of the human population is christian
19.6% muslim
13.4% hindu
12.7% non religious
.2% jewish
http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

seems as though the christian agenda is to contradict what jesus predicted would happen...

 

[-Peacemaker-]

you failed to mention
vs 11 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

hmmm, 33% of the human population is christian
19.6% muslim
13.4% hindu
12.7% non religious
.2% jewish

seems as though the christian agenda is to contradict what jesus predicted would happen...

I contend that theologically it's both/and not either/or. People from all nations will be blessed when the Gospel reaches them and many believe it's message. At the end times temptation will increase and many will fall into idolatry. Those people will persecute those who's faith has remained steadfast. So one nation of believers will be formed from members of every nation on Earth, a blessed nation. The one nation that came from many will be persecuted.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yup, the message is getting out...The Decline Of Christianity In America

about time I say

 

[waitasec]

I contend that theologically it's both/and not either/or. People from all nations will be blessed when the Gospel reaches them and many believe it's message.

is this scripturally supported?

 

[Draka]

The good news is that he didn't go into some cave and hear a "revelation" from an angel, then come out and tell everyone they had to take his word for it. He was a preacher and a public figure with a lot of followers. TONS of people would've heard his words, witness his life, and would be there to confirm the accuracy.

Was this supposed to be in response to my last post or was this just out of nowhere random thinking?

 

[waitasec]

Yup, the message is getting out...The Decline Of Christianity In America

about time I say

from your link...

According to a stunning new survey by America's Research Group, 95 percent of 20 to 29 year old evangelicals attended church regularly during their elementary and middle school years. However, only 55 percent of them attended church regularly during high school, and only 11 percent of them were still regularly attending church when in college.

Those numbers have got to be incredibly sobering to the evangelical Christian leadership in the United States.

The reality is that young Americans are deserting the Church in America in droves.

The other day we came across an article in Advertising Age that blew us away. The article was discussing marketing and religion, but what impacted us so profoundly were some figures from the American Religious Identification Survey by the Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society & Culture at Trinity College.

According to that survey, 15% of Americans now say they have "no religion" which is up from 8% in 1990.

That would be bad enough news for evangelical Christianity.

But there is some more news from that survey that is much worse.

why say it's worse...isn't this supposedly the way it was prophesied?
why act surprised....i don't get it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

is this scripturally supported?

Of course it is. Listen, anybody that wants to hear and believe something can find himself a teacher that preaches what he wants to hear. However, this is "standard" Christian theology, accepted as truthful by the vast majority of theologians who are trying to interpret it faithfully. Check out some Bible commentaries like the Zondervan series, or commentaries by people like John Stott. There's literally hunderds of commentaries on the subject, those are just a few of many trusted names that write commentaries.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Was this supposed to be in response to my last post or was this just out of nowhere random thinking?

Think of it as a game of "team telephone". If alot of people are telling the same story, usually there is less discrepancy among the more important details than among the "small details".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Think of it as a game of "team telephone". If alot of people are telling the same story, usually there is less discrepancy among the more important details than among the "small details".

So... are the gospels not telling the same story, or is the resurrection and appearance of Christ to the disciples a "small detail"?

 

[waitasec]

I contend that theologically it's both/and not either/or. People from all nations will be blessed when the Gospel reaches them and many believe it's message.

Of course it is. Listen, anybody that wants to hear and believe something can find himself a teacher that preaches what he wants to hear. However, this is "standard" Christian theology, accepted as truthful by the vast majority of theologians who are trying to interpret it faithfully. Check out some Bible commentaries like the Zondervan series, or commentaries by people like John Stott. There's literally hunderds of commentaries on the subject, those are just a few of many trusted names that write commentaries.

can you provide a passage that supports this?