Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As this thread has seemed to take a turn to discussing moments of silence/reflection I really think that one post inparticular has gone woefully unnoticed and bypassed.

You're right - UV has a good point: praying in a "moment of reflection" goes against the purpose of the "moment"... if its purpose really is reflection.

Honestly, where is the harm in a "moment of reflection"? What possible inconvenience could it actually cause someone? How does it possibly offend someone that some people take a few moments to really think and reflect on a great moment at hand like a graduation? So what if some people use that time to pray? Some people use it to remember what brought them to that point and really bring themselves to focus on their, or their children's, accomplishment. There are many different types of people, many different mindsets and stances on belief. I can't see why theists and non-theists alike can't take a moment to slow down and take in the importance of the event. For some that may include prayer, yes, but it doesn't for everyone and those people can use the exact same time however they wish to use it. Whichever way it is used individually, it is used as a whole to bring everyone into the moment at hand. Now how is that a bad thing? I honestly think some people just want to be offended over something. This would be absolutely nothing to get offended over and yet some will still find something to gripe about.

Here's my thought process about this:

Say I was starting with a blank slate and wanted to introduce a certain sentiment (reflectiveness, happiness, righteous anger... anything, really) into a public event. How would I do it?

The exact method would probably depend on the specific feeling that I wanted to evoke, but it would probably be some sort of active method: maybe a speech or performance that evokes what I'm after... something like that. What I probably wouldn't do is just tell the audience what sentiment I wanted them to have and then tell them to evoke it for themselves.

I don't think a "moment of reflection" makes sense as a method to actually create reflection. I also don't think that you can ignore the history of the church-state separation battle that caused these sorts of things to show up in event programs. It really is a "prayer hole". Except for memorial events, where a moment of silence has been used all along to commemorate the dead, "moments of reflection" are only there because prayer was there before.

IMO, to pretend that they have nothing to do with public prayer is to ignore their history.

 

[Draka]

I'm not saying it isn't a nice thing to do, even if it's unnecessary. And it's not that "some feel it is unnecessary". It IS unnecessary. Nobody -needs- to pray at the beginning of a graduation ceremony, but sure, for those who are religious, it's a nice thing.

Why does the event need to stop for whatever amount of time to accomodate it? If you feel prayer is important, by all means pray to yourself. Nobody is stopping you.

But I'm not talking about prayer. I'm not the one who started this tangent. I rarely ever, if at all, pray at functions like this. I was just trying to put out the option of a "moment of reflection" so that ALL people would be included. How a person chooses to use that little bit of time is up to them. I thought this was explained. Also, the event in question IS a RITUAL. It is considered a rite of passage. None of it has to be done except giving the students their diplomas and they can just as easily, in fact more easily, be mailed out. All of it is technically "unnecessary". No one "needs" to have a cap and gown or have speeches or even shake anyone's hand. Speakers aren't necessary. None of it is necessary. So my point was, if none of it is necessary then why does it even matter if an "unnecessary" moment of reflection is included in the ritual?

 

[blackout]

I am not trying to hurt anybody with my witnessing, just the opposite, I am trying to help people, perhaps if I read the Bible more and memorized it, prayed asked for God's help, the guidance of the Holy Spirit to give me the right words.

But honey, nobody is in need of your "help".

including your god.
After all, he is God, no?

I do have compassion for you though.
I also used to be a "true, out of church" christian.
It's alienating, depressing, isolating, frustrating, hurting
and yes even angering.
It's a heavy load,
always going around
with the need to judge everything/everyone around you.
Living as the "God Police".
It's exhausting always being the one with "the truth"
that no one else seems to want.
Compelled to save the gotham world
as the Invisible Hero's unappreciated side kick.
It's lonely.
It's also a great sadness,
to not live for the simple love of living.

You really can't see the prison you're in
until you get out.
I hope you do. really.

I know you can't HELP but insult and judge me,
but I do understand,
given your mindset
you really have no choice in the matter.

No hard feelings.


PS,
("live and let live" is pretty similar to "love your neighbor as yourself".
Just something to consider.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Second, my Christian faith is not a religion. True Christian faith is not a religion it is a relationship with God.

Call it what you want, but it's still included when people talk about "religion".

God loves you and so do I, that is why we Christian spread the gospel, so that none will perish. I tell people god and his son Jesus loves them because I don't want anyone to go to hell. We are all sinners, there is darkness, sin and evil in all human hearts but many deny it and refuse to repent of their sins.

And who created hell?

God loves us so much he wants to save us from himself?

I don't understand why so many of you witchcraft people have rejected Christianity and you are against Christians. You act like Christians are bad guys for some reason.

No, not Christians in general; only people who would impose their religion on me. Unfortunately, there's a bit of overlap between these two categories.

When my family goes out to eat at a restaraunt, we pray before eating the food. It doesn't matter if other people stare at us or whisper at us or if the waiter or waitress doesn't like it, we still do it. When I'm a home I pray before eating to bless the food and thank God for my food too. Without God we would not have food.

And it's fine for you to do that. What wouldn't be okay is if you demanded that I, sitting at another table, had to pray before eating too, or if you demanded that I not start eating until you had finished praying. Believe what you want and express those beliefs how you want, but don't make me share in your beliefs and practices if I don't want to.

 

[Draka]

FIrst off, your quote about "religion being like a penis," is incredibly disgusting and perverted, no, religion is not like a penis, that is sick. There is nothing wrong with people being public with their faith. Jesus told us not to show off in public by acting pious and religious, but there's nothing wrong with witnessing in public, Jeus did this all the time, and he healed people and prayed in public.

If you take my sig line as perverted and disgusting that says more about you and your issues than anything else. A man's penis is his personal belonging. It is quite literally a part of him, just like whatever his religion may be. However, it is considered rude to take it out of his pants just to wave it around and show people to basically say "hey look at what I got! Isn't it great?". No one needs or wants to see that kind of behaviour. It is VERY much like religion. It does not need flaunting, or pushed on anyone else against their will.

Second, my Christian faith is not a religion. True Christian faith is not a religion it is a relationship with God. And no it is not a sexual relationship, so don't come up with any sick perverrted jokes you understand? It is a father-child relationship, I am a bit weird so I think God can be both mother and father, in the Bible in Proverbs it speaks of wisdom as "she" and Isaiah compares god's love and longing for His lost people to a woman's love for her nursing baby. Just like a mother cannot forget or abandon the child she is nursing, neither can God forget about his human children. We are all God's children.

I wouldn't even consider going all perverted with the whole "relationship" thing. You really do have some sex issues don't you? I do, however, think the whole rewording and trying to separate yourself from your religion by calling it not a religion and a "relationship" instead is extremely lame. It is a religion. You have a set of beliefs do you not? A religion is a set of beliefs. You pray right? That is practice of your beliefs. Sorry to tell you...you have a religion. Deal with it.

God loves you and so do I, that is why we Christian spread the gospel, so that none will perish. I tell people god and his son Jesus loves them because I don't want anyone to go to hell. We are all sinners, there is darkness, sin and evil in all human hearts but many deny it and refuse to repent of their sins.

I have been angry when people refuse to listen to me and have gotten frustrated and have thought, "to hell with them" but that is worng, it is evil, the spirit of Satan tempting me to be mean, cruel and selfish, hateful and evil, i must fight against that dark demonic spairit and send Jesus in me to fight agaisnt Satan that tempts me through my emotions. I get angry, the Bible says "Be angry and do not sin." So there is nothing wrong with being angry, but if you sin while you are angry, that is wrong.

I am not trying to hurt anybody with my witnessing, just the opposite, I am trying to help people, perhaps if I read the Bible more and memorized it, prayed asked for God's help, the guidance of the Holy Spirit to give me the right words.

You assume so much here. And assume it wrongly. You assume you are right, right enough to inflict your beliefs and ideals on others. You assume we need it. You assume that you are helping. We don't. You aren't.

I don't understand why so many of you witchcraft people have rejected Christianity and you are against Christians. You act like Christians are bad guys for some reason.

"You witchcraft people"? :areyoucra I do not accept Christianity for the same reason you do not accept Wicca. How does that work for you? And I don't act like Christians are "bad guys" nor am I against Christians. Victim complex much? Most of my friends and family are Christians. We have some wonderful Christians on this board. I don't have issue with Christians in general. I have issues with proselytizing. Proselytizing isn't just a Christian thing. Shoot, it isn't even just a theist thing. There are atheists who are guilty of it as well. I find it all rude.

Most of the Christians I know in the churches I've been to, and I've been to a lot of churches, are very nice. I have met some crazy religious fanatics, I have them in the family. I've met some mean Christian bullies as well, and their are always the bully preachers, the corrupt liberal con artists preachers that cheat people out of their money. I would not trust the preachers and Christians on TV and be wary of megachurches and charismatic cult leaders, not everyone calling themselves "Christian" matches up with the true spirit of Christ.

While on one hand it is nice that you recognize when others are rude and crazy proselytizers, however on the other hand, it seems okay if you do it.

When my family goes out to eat at a restaraunt, we pray before eating the food. It doesn't matter if other people stare at us or whisper at us or if the waiter or waitress doesn't like it, we still do it. When I'm a home I pray before eating to bless the food and thank God for my food too. Without God we would not have food.

Ok, that's nice for you. I don't care if you pray before you eat, no matter where you are. I don't have issues with individually praying in public areas. Have at it. As long as you aren't hopping up on your chair in the middle of a restaurant calling on all people there to pray with you because they have some "need" to get "right with god". As long as you aren't going table to table preaching to people you don't even know and telling them that they should believe what you believe and pray with you before they eat their food. There is a difference , no?

 

[McBell]

I didn't take any sort of poll, but I didn't get the feeling that anyone was emotionally scarred by either prayer.

By the way, an aside note - personally I thought the Muslim prayer was beautiful (it was some sort of formal reading of what I took to be a traditional prayer - sort of like there are traditional prayers in Christianity like the Lord's Prayer). I was very glad to see a large group of Baptists (the largest group of Christians in East Texas) subjected to it!

I didn't hear or notice any sort of discomfort, or hear any murmurings from the crowd when the Muslim prayer was read - and I thought it was quite appropriate considering our valedictorian and another Top Ten student are practicing Muslims who are very open about their faith - and quite popular and respected by their peers too, for that matter.

But I digress.

We so need a 'sarcasm' smiley...

 

[Vinayaka]

So the prime minister of Canada wants to create a 'religious freedoms' protection bureau to 'protect' minority religions from persecution in other countries. Of course, fully knowing he's a closet evangelical, what does this say? He wants my government and my taxes to be spent lobbying other countries to allow the people of his faith to go out and spread the word via proseletysing, and not get 'persecuted' for it. If they didn't proseeletyse, they wouldn't get 'persecuted'. I'd like my money spent on that instead. But now we're really gonna take it from King Steve.

 

[Kathryn]

We so need a 'sarcasm' smiley...

Yes, we do - and we need one which embodies the strange emotion I felt as I realised that a stadium full of Baptists was being subjected to a Muslim prayer!

 

[Draka]

Here's my thought process about this:

Say I was starting with a blank slate and wanted to introduce a certain sentiment (reflectiveness, happiness, righteous anger... anything, really) into a public event. How would I do it?

The exact method would probably depend on the specific feeling that I wanted to evoke, but it would probably be some sort of active method: maybe a speech or performance that evokes what I'm after... something like that. What I probably wouldn't do is just tell the audience what sentiment I wanted them to have and then tell them to evoke it for themselves.

I don't think a "moment of reflection" makes sense as a method to actually create reflection. I also don't think that you can ignore the history of the church-state separation battle that caused these sorts of things to show up in event programs. It really is a "prayer hole". Except for memorial events, where a moment of silence has been used all along to commemorate the dead, "moments of reflection" are only there because prayer was there before.

IMO, to pretend that they have nothing to do with public prayer is to ignore their history.

You're seeing it only how you want to see it with obviously the intent to be offended. Giving a little opening speech about what this day symbolizes and how hard the students have worked to get there and then simply saying "let's take a moment to reflect on what has led up to and brought us here today" and then just being quiet for a few seconds sets the mood enough for people to reminisce. If people pray then, so be it. It sets a moods and atmosphere and brings people "into the moment" as it were. Also, by giving that little bit of time it lets people run through their minds by themselves before anything else starts happening in the RITUAL so that it is out of the way and they can pay full attention to the rest of it.

Look, the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people who happen to be religious and want to pray or thank god or whatever. You and I may not be the types to bow our heads and send up a prayer at a graduation, but does it really bother you all that much if others want to? Are you really that offended that you can't forsake 30 seconds out of your life to just sit quietly and let people pray or reflect or stroll down memory lane just a little bit? Are you that bitter? I don't care if I'm surrounded by a bunch of devout Christians all with their heads bowed and quietly praying to themselves thanking their god for their kid graduating or whatever. They're not insisting I do the same. I could be silently reciting the alphabet backwards or trying to invoke Satan or what-have-you. We're talking a few seconds of sitting and being quiet. Whoopty-doo.

 

[Kathryn]

You're seeing it only how you want to see it with obviously the intent to be offended. Giving a little opening speech about what this day symbolizes and how hard the students have worked to get there and then simply saying "let's take a moment to reflect on what has led up to and brought us here today" and then just being quiet for a few seconds sets the mood enough for people to reminisce. If people pray then, so be it. It sets a moods and atmosphere and brings people "into the moment" as it were. Also, by giving that little bit of time it lets people run through their minds by themselves before anything else starts happening in the RITUAL so that it is out of the way and they can pay full attention to the rest of it.

Look, the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people who happen to be religious and want to pray or thank god or whatever. You and I may not be the types to bow our heads and send up a prayer at a graduation, but does it really bother you all that much if others want to? Are you really that offended that you can't forsake 30 seconds out of your life to just sit quietly and let people pray or reflect or stroll down memory lane just a little bit? Are you that bitter? I don't care if I'm surrounded by a bunch of devout Christians all with their heads bowed and quietly praying to themselves thanking their god for their kid graduating or whatever. They're not insisting I do the same. I could be silently reciting the alphabet backwards or trying to invoke Satan or what-have-you. We're talking a few seconds of sitting and being quiet. Whoopty-doo.

Amen, sister.

At last night's graduation, two of the ten top students are practicing Muslims - very devout Muslims. They would tell you that their faith and it's disciplines are an integral part of their personal success.

I thought it was great - and interesting - and tolerant - to allow them to open the ceremony with a traditional Muslim prayer.

If an atheist student was the valedictorian and he or she wanted to address that view as part of their personal success, so be it.

TOLERANCE - that's the key, people. At least that's how I see it. I'm sure some people were privately offended. But things went well. It was a nice ceremony.

 

[blackout]

I have to be honest,

I don't want to hear a christian prayer,
or a muslim prayer,
or anybody's prayer at a graduation.
I don't want to hear the pledge,
or the national anthem, or the star spangled banner.

There is such a fine line between tolerance and tiresome.

I don't mind hearing from some of the students and teachers,
talk of their experiences together,
even if some of the student's own experiences
include relevant references to their own religion,
but I really don't want to hear some outsider give a speech either.

Neither am I fond at all of the idea of mortar boards being worn on the head.
(for my own reasons. *sighs*)

I did not want to go to my college graduation ceremony.
But my parents wanted me to go,
and they paid for my education,
so I went, for them really.

In the end, they were the ones unhappy
at having been held captive by
some "liberal speaker",
spouting things they did not believe in
as fact, or truth. eh.
I don't even know who it was.
I didn't then either.

A lot of unnecessary pomp if you ask me.

Send me my degree/diploma in the mail,
keep good records,
and hopefully it makes some REAL difference to my life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But I'm not talking about prayer. I'm not the one who started this tangent.

But the "moment of reflection" can't be separated from prayer. That's the whole point of the "moment", even if people sometimes pretend it's not.

Look, the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of people who happen to be religious and want to pray or thank god or whatever. You and I may not be the types to bow our heads and send up a prayer at a graduation, but does it really bother you all that much if others want to?

There are also probably lots of people in the audience at a graduation who would want to smoke, but we don't put a break in the ceremony for them to go outside and have a cigarette. Instead, we say that they can take care of it on their own time... same goes for prayer, IMO.

Are you really that offended that you can't forsake 30 seconds out of your life to just sit quietly and let people pray or reflect or stroll down memory lane just a little bit? Are you that bitter?

It's not a matter of the lost time. The problem is with (depending on the situation) either a public institution or a private one purporting to represent everyone present, engaging in exclusionary behaviour. Exclusionism for even a second is a negative thing and is better done away with.

I don't care if I'm surrounded by a bunch of devout Christians all with their heads bowed and quietly praying to themselves thanking their god for their kid graduating or whatever. They're not insisting I do the same.

Neither do I. What I object to is the man or woman at the front of the room insisting that I just sit there and wait while the Christians do their thing. They might not be saying to me "you must pray!" but it's still an inquisition.

I could be silently reciting the alphabet backwards or trying to invoke Satan or what-have-you. We're talking a few seconds of sitting and being quiet. Whoopty-doo.

The "it's only a few seconds" argument works both ways. If your saying that I shouldn't put up a fuss because a "prayer hole" is very small and no big deal, then by the same token, those who demand the time shouldn't put up a fuss to get the time either, since it's no big deal... right?

Amen, sister.

At last night's graduation, two of the ten top students are practicing Muslims - very devout Muslims. They would tell you that their faith and it's disciplines are an integral part of their personal success.

I thought it was great - and interesting - and tolerant - to allow them to open the ceremony with a traditional Muslim prayer.

If an atheist student was the valedictorian and he or she wanted to address that view as part of their personal success, so be it.

TOLERANCE - that's the key, people. At least that's how I see it. I'm sure some people were privately offended. But things went well. It was a nice ceremony.

Do you understand the difference between an officially sanctioned prayer (or time set aside for prayer) and an individual's expression of religious belief? One is okay; the other is not.

Neither am I fond at all of the idea of mortar boards being worn on the head.
(for my own reasons. *sighs*)

FWIW, Canadian universities don't generally use mortar boards. Only the PhDs wear caps, and they usually look like this:

 

[blackout]

.9,

What about the "patriotism hole"?

 

[Kathryn]

Do you understand the difference between an officially sanctioned prayer (or time set aside for prayer) and an individual's expression of religious belief?

Well, errr, yes, as a matter of fact I do.

One is okay; the other is not.

Your opinion. And you're welcome to it.

My opinion is that time set aside for reflection, or prayer, or texting while others are doing so, doesn't hurt anyone and is not offensive.

 

[Kathryn]

FWIW, Canadian universities don't generally use mortar boards. Only the PhDs wear caps, and they usually look like this:

Wow, that looks SO much better than a mortar board! UV, I'd like to see you in one of these babies!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

.9,

What about the "patriotism hole"?

Heh... it's not much of a hole. They've filled it with anthems and pledges and stuff.

Yeah... I'm not sure. On the one hand, I can see why people would have problems with overt displays of forms of patriotism that they don't share - that's pretty exclusionary, too. OTOH, if we have the country (or aspects of it, such as the protection of the government and the rule of law) to thank for making the event possible, then I don't think it's necessarily out-of-keeping with the spirit of the occasion to acknowledge that country.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, errr, yes, as a matter of fact I do.

So you were deliberately conflating them?

Your opinion. And you're welcome to it.

My opinion is that time set aside for reflection, or prayer, or texting while others are doing so, doesn't hurt anyone and is not offensive.

And my opinion is that a moment in the schedule that comes out of the question of how to get as close as possible to a sectarian prayer (usually to Jesus) as possible without breaking the letter of the law is still contrary to the spirit behind that law. I think that throwing a "prayer hole" in an event is an attempt to make society out to be a religious thing... but it's not: we have a secular society that is made up of both religious and non-religious individuals (including religious individuals who don't want public prayer). It should be based on what's common to all... but prayer is not common to all.

Pray if you want, but leave me out of it. That's all I ask, but apparently people have a problem with this.

 

[Kathryn]

Pray if you want, but leave me out of it. That's all I ask, but apparently people have a problem with this.

I don't have a problem at all with you texting or reflecting or writing out your grocery list (but it'd have to be a short one since most "moments of silence" are under a minute) while I'm doing the same...or praying, if I feel like it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't have a problem at all with you texting or reflecting or writing out your grocery list (but it'd have to be a short one since most "moments of silence" are under a minute) while I'm doing the same...or praying, if I feel like it.

If you put a "prayer hole" in the schedule - effectively decided that I have to wait for you and your friends to finish praying before we can get on with why we're all there - then you have not left me out of it.

 

[blackout]

Heh... it's not much of a hole. They've filled it with anthems and pledges and stuff.

Yeah... I'm not sure. On the one hand, I can see why people would have problems with overt displays of forms of patriotism that they don't share - that's pretty exclusionary, too. OTOH, if we have the country (or aspects of it, such as the protection of the government and the rule of law) to thank for making the event possible, then I don't think it's necessarily out-of-keeping with the spirit of the occasion to acknowledge that country.

Well, with that mindset
the govt. may as well be God.

Your govt. makes ALL of your "events" possible.
Even your very life.

Sound familiar?