Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Kathryn]

Funny you mention these groups, because apart from churches and synagogues, all such groups I've ever been involved with have had no problem conducting themselves without having prayers or moments of silence before meetings.

And speaking of Toastmasters, I know that some Toastmasters clubs have "invocations", but the vast majority don't have this. Not around here, anyhow. Speaking as a former club president, I wouldn't want to have an invocation for any club that's supposed to be catering to the general public. In a church's Toastmasters club, sure. In a specialty club that has a specific mission to cater to religious Toastmasters, okay. For a regular public club, it's inappropriate.

And I've never heard of the Sierra Club opening their meetings with prayers; are you trying to suggest that they do?

But again: it's not a matter of legal rights. It's often legal to be a jerk to other people; this doesn't mean that it's appropriate to be a jerk.

I brought up these groups because they are groups which, though they are open to the public, have every right to conduct their meetings as they wish. This may or may not include prayer. That was my point.

I too am a former Toastmasters Club President. We opened every meeting with a prayer - long before I even joined and long after I moved from the area, this was a formal part of the meeting. We had members from all walks of life, including Jewish, Muslim, agnostic, and atheist members. We all got along great and in the five or so years that I was a member (and an officer for three of those five years) the topic of whether or not the prayer should be included in the agenda was honestly never even brought up.

Now THAT'S how people should get along. It was a really great club and is still going strong - and still opening in prayer.

 

[Kathryn]

.

Yes - sanctioned prayer at a public high school graduation (at least in the US) is illegal. Sanctioned prayer at a sporting event not associated with the government is merely inappropriate. Both are offensive.

At a NASCAR race, I can assure you that if the prayer OR the military flyover were dropped, a large percentage of the attendees would be offended. How is that any better?

If you want to pray, go ahead and pray - nobody's stopping you. All we ask is that you not impose on others in the process.

And how is prayer at a NASCAR race harming anyone?

Look, for the record, I don't even GO to NASCAR races, though I have been to ONE because I was given a VIP pass and a pit pass and thought I may as well just do it. I HATED the entire experience (with the exception of the prayer and military flyover!). And honestly, it's about like a wrestling event or a rap concert, or a four wheeler weekend get together - there's nothing WRONG with liking that sort of thing, but the crowd is not my crowd.

It's not legal issue; it's an issue of ethics and courtesy.

And there's a big difference between the two events: when you go to a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert, you're austensibly there to listen to Lynyrd Skynard songs. It would be bizarre to expect not to hear Lynyrd Skynard songs there.

It would also be bizarre not to hear them publically support the troops and any ongoing war effort. So - if that offends you, you're going to be offended at a Lynard Skynard concert.

A rap concert is open to the public. Anyone can buy a ticket. But if cussing, disrespecting women, and people wearing sagging pants offends you, you know you're going to get offended at a rap concert. Does that mean that the musicians (and I use that term loosely) should change their act so that no one can POSSIBLY be offended?

OTOH, at a car race, the purpose of the event is, well, car racing, not celebrating Jesus. However, if you do want to celebrate Jesus at the event, fine, as long as you don't disturb others.

No - the whole event is tailored to a particular crowd's general preferences. That's why there's a public prayer and a military flyover. The majority of NASCAR fans LIKE those parts of the whole experience and WANT them to be included. If they were not included, THEY would be offended.

At a NASCAR race, or a concert, you're also going to see a fair number of drunk people. What does this have to do with racing or music? What if I'm a recovering alcoholic - and the guy next to me is drinking a beer and it makes me really, really want one? What if the lead singer of Lynard Skynard holds up a beer and hollers, "Drink up!" Should I be offended because I am an addict who cannot drink even one beer?

At a Lynyrd Skynard concert, "Sweet Home Alabama" is part of the main act. At a car race, prayers are a sideshow.

Earlier you accused me of being intentionally obtuse. Do you HONESTLY not see the point I am making?

At both events, the whole format of events is compiled to appeal to the majority of the fans. Both the concert and the race include components other than music or car racing - which appeal to most of the fans. Not all of the fans. Most of them. Though both are open to the public, they are likely to include components which may offend or disturb some people - just as a rap concert would offend or disturb some people. So what?

If you're trying to exclude people, then fine - do what you want to exclude people. But I don't get this mentality you seem to be expressing that says that people who are excluded this way should just go along with it and not make a fuss.

I'm not trying to exclude anyone. But some events cater in general to a general type of fan or supporter. For instance, if I go to a Kanye West or Good Charlotte concert, the odds of them bringing up political views which I don't agree with, or which offend me, is high. I can either go and just be gracious, or I can boycott them, or I can go and then complain about their expressed political views. But the bottom line is - I don't expect them to change their views or their format just so they won't offend me. Are they trying to exclude me? I highly doubt it. But would they give a rat's *** that I don't like to hear politics discussed at a music concert? I doubt that too. And the majority of their fans probably agree with their political views and will jump to their feet cheering for them when they are expressed. Should I feel offended and excluded?

The Dixie Chicks are a great example of freedom of speech and it's ramifications. I guess they're crying all the way to the bank. More power to them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My sole objection to 9/10ths' point (even though I agree with it in principle) is this:

Reasonable accommodation of religion is fine, but no special accommodation is required when the religious activity in question can happen just fine all by itself.

What constitutes "reasonable"? The problem with this from a legal standpoint is that "reasonable" has no solid legal definition. To you, a moment of silence before a ceremony or event is unreasonable. We hold very similar religious views and despite this, I think that stopping the event for 30-60 seconds is entirely reasonable and not a bother at all.

Maybe it would help if I expanded on what I was thinking of as "reasonable accommodation": as an example, consider Muslim Salat. As part of the rules surrounding it, it has to happen at specific times of day and following a specific form. In a school setting, for instance, I think it would be reasonable to excuse Muslim students for a few minutes at a time so they can attend to their religious duties. It would also be reasonable to let them use some available space in the school for this (and there's usually some school space available at any given time - if all the classrooms are full because class is in session, then the cafeteria or even the staff room is probably free). Class wouldn't stop and the students would have to pick up any material they missed, just as someone would have to get themselves back up to speed if they went to the washroom.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about: if someone has a deeply-held conviction, whether it's religious or otherwise, I think it's fine to take small, reasonable measures to accommodate it, provided it doesn't mean imposing that religion on everyone else.

Another example might be in food service, at a school or workplace cafeteria or elsewhere: I think it's fine to have a kosher or halal option (though I suppose, especially in the case of the stricter interpretations of "kosher", this could be rather onerous - I wouldn't expect a cafeteria to build an entire second kitchen to accommodate Jewish students with strict dietary requirements) provided that there's enough demand to warrant it.

But maybe I used the wrong term when I talked about reasonable accommodation of religion, because I think the same approach should be used when it comes to anything that people have deep convictions about. For instance, I'd support a vegetarian option at a cafeteria (again, provided there was the demand to warrant it) just as much as a kosher or halal option.

But getting back to the subject of prayer and "moments of silence": a moment of silence isn't reasonable accommodation, because it's not really accommodation at all. The whole point of accommodation in general is to ensure that a need (real or perceived) is being met that wouldn't be met otherwise. In the case of a Christian who wants to pray at a public event, he can just go ahead and pray - there's no barrier to him praying before, after or even during the event, as long as he's not causing a disturbance to others. There's no impediment, so there's no need for accommodation... prayer is already accommodated.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And how is prayer at a NASCAR race harming anyone?

Look, for the record, I don't even GO to NASCAR races, though I have been to ONE because I was given a VIP pass and a pit pass and thought I may as well just do it. I HATED the entire experience (with the exception of the prayer and military flyover!). And honestly, it's about like a wrestling event or a rap concert, or a four wheeler weekend get together - there's nothing WRONG with liking that sort of thing, but the crowd is not my crowd.

Then you're one up on me. I've never been to a NASCAR race at all.

I'm not sure where this became a discussion of NASCAR specifically. I was talking about auto racing in general (although I suppose to many Americans, "auto racing in general" means "NASCAR, NASCAR, NASCAR", unfortunately). I've sat through invocations at races by IRL, Champ Car (RIP), the American Le Mans Series, as well as at rallies, and probably others that I'm forgetting.

In most of these cases, if the invocation was dropped, most people wouldn't care, IMO. Most racing isn't as explicitly "megachurch-ish Christian" as NASCAR.

It would also be bizarre not to hear them publically support the troops and any ongoing war effort. So - if that offends you, you're going to be offended at a Lynard Skynard concert.

A rap concert is open to the public. Anyone can buy a ticket. But if cussing, disrespecting women, and people wearing sagging pants offends you, you know you're going to get offended at a rap concert. Does that mean that the musicians (and I use that term loosely) should change their act so that no one can POSSIBLY be offended?

They could either do that or acknowledge that their act is going to alienate a significant number of people and can't be reasonably held to represent everyone. I'd say that most hip-hop acts take the second option.

But here's a better example that illustrates what I'm talking about: I once went to a Michael Shermer lecture on skepticism. On the whole, it was really good and very well done, but at one point in his talk, he went into a side discussion for several minutes on how great libertarianism is. I'd say that this sidebar was inappropriate in a talk that was geared to skeptics generally, who cover a wide range of political views, and since his points weren't really relevant to the topic at hand.

No - the whole event is tailored to a particular crowd's general preferences. That's why there's a public prayer and a military flyover. The majority of NASCAR fans LIKE those parts of the whole experience and WANT them to be included. If they were not included, THEY would be offended.

At a NASCAR race, or a concert, you're also going to see a fair number of drunk people. What does this have to do with racing or music? What if I'm a recovering alcoholic - and the guy next to me is drinking a beer and it makes me really, really want one? What if the lead singer of Lynard Skynard holds up a beer and hollers, "Drink up!" Should I be offended because I am an addict who cannot drink even one beer?

You might be offended, but in many cases, the drinking is part of what allows the event to happen at all. Depending on the nature of the event, the venue might make more on alcohol sales than they do on tickets. Complaining about beer at a sporting event is like complaining that the seats aren't more comfortable: both things are probably dictated by economics.

Earlier you accused me of being intentionally obtuse. Do you HONESTLY not see the point I am making?

At both events, the whole format of events is compiled to appeal to the majority of the fans. Both the concert and the race include components other than music or car racing - which appeal to most of the fans. Not all of the fans. Most of them. Though both are open to the public, they are likely to include components which may offend or disturb some people - just as a rap concert would offend or disturb some people. So what?

So anything goes as long as it doesn't alienate any more than 50% -1 of your target market? I'm glad you're not a marketer.

Hip hop concerts are geared to hip hop fans. Racing events are geared to racing fans. Are you saying that being a Christian (or at least liking public prayer) is part and parcel of being a racing fan?

I'm not trying to exclude anyone. But some events cater in general to a general type of fan or supporter. For instance, if I go to a Kanye West or Good Charlotte concert, the odds of them bringing up political views which I don't agree with, or which offend me, is high. I can either go and just be gracious, or I can boycott them, or I can go and then complain about their expressed political views. But the bottom line is - I don't expect them to change their views or their format just so they won't offend me. Are they trying to exclude me? I highly doubt it. But would they give a rat's *** that I don't like to hear politics discussed at a music concert? I doubt that too.

Bingo: they are most definitely not trying to create something that includes all, as would be the case for a graduation ceremony or a sporting event (though in the case of the sporting event, they'd be aiming for "all _____ fans", rather than all people generally).

And the majority of their fans probably agree with their political views and will jump to their feet cheering for them when they are expressed. Should I feel offended and excluded?

Excluded? Sure. Offended? Only if Kanye West is presenting himself and his event as something that's meant to include you.

Edit: the issue I have isn't with people doing their own thing. It's with people excluding those who are meant to be included.

As another example, as a robotics referee, I would consider it inappropriate for a FIRST Lego League tournament to have an invocation. However, if I decided to referee at an Adventist Robotics League tournament, then I'd expect some sort of invocation (or at least overt, sectarian religiosity) as part and parcel of the event.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just to throw another example out there, since we seem to be talking a fair bit about auto racing:

Motorsport Ministries (and perhaps other similar organizations) has a trailer that they've outfitted as a portable chapel, which they bring around to different racing events. They provide non-denominational Christian services, typically a few times on Sunday morning after the gate opens but before the main race starts, as well as an early service so that team members and officials can go. But it's all voluntary: there might be a mention at the worker's meeting ("in case you're interested, the Motorsports Ministries trailer is here, and they're having a service at 6:30 am Sunday, so if you go, you'll still be able to make it to our morning meeting at 7:30"), but nothing's imposed on anyone. It's there, and if you want to use it, you can, but if you don't want to, that's fine, too.

I think that sort of religious accommodation is fine. If you want to be religious at the track, go for it. Just don't expect me to join in.

 

[Vile Atheist]

To 9/10ths:

I understand your position a little better now and agree with you. But for this to be implemented in practice, it would require a solid legal definition for "reasonable".

To Kathryn:

I think 9/10ths' point is not that taking 30-60 seconds out of an event for a moment of silence is unreasonable in and of itself. It's that it's not accomodating something that needs to be done.

As a Christian, you can pray at any time you wish. There is no compulsion to pray with a certain frequency nor at a certain time of day or whatever. You don't -have- to pray before a NASCAR race (or whatever event you wish). For other religious groups, that might be necessary as part of their religion.

Just as in the example 9/10ths used previously, if Muslim students in a school need to pray at certain times of day, it's reasonable for a teacher to excuse that Muslim student to do prayers and come back and catch up on their own (like you would have to if you went to the washroom). Nothing needs to be stopped.

In schools with lots and lots of Muslim students (that would be more in 9/10ths' corner of Ontario in Toronto, rather than mine here in northern Ontario ), it might be more reasonable to have a "moment of silence" (if you want to call it that) to allow the Muslim students to pray and for the other students to do whatever they wish. If the Christian and Jewish students want to pray as well, they can use that opportunity to do so as well. If there are atheists present, they can play their GameBoys.

But in public crowds where there is probably a diverse mix of people with different views, I think it's best to not accomodate anyone. If you're at a Winnipeg Jets hockey game (OH LORD I CAN'T WAIT!!! ), you probably have Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, Sikhs...all sorts of views and beliefs. Taking 30-60 seconds for a moment of silence isn't unreasonable, but since for the vast majority of the people in that venue there is no reason to pray at that exact time, there is no reason to accomodate anyone.

A better question is: Why does the program even need to stop? If you are compelled to pray by your religion or want to pray, why can't it be done at home before you go? Or just before the event? Or even while the event is starting, to yourself? I don't think it has to be a group effort, personally.

 

[Draka]

As this thread has seemed to take a turn to discussing moments of silence/reflection I really think that one post inparticular has gone woefully unnoticed and bypassed.

I don't see any problem with
"A moment of reflection".

We all have things to reflect on, after all.
Whatever they may be.

A moment of reflection,
is a reflection of the individual PEOPLE there.

People who choose to "pray" instead of reflect,
actually, are not participating
in the moment of reflection.

If a person chooses to "prayerfully reflect",
this is no reflection on you either.
It is but one individual's personal form of reflection.

So include a moment of personal reflection.
Personal reflection is a good thing IMO.
No reason not to encourage and make room for it.
It's only a few seconds of your time,
and it can help put you in the right frame of mind
for the event.
Life is busy, we all run around,
thinking of a hundred things at once.

Breath, and focus, at the start of an event,
cannot be a bad thing for anyone.

Honestly, where is the harm in a "moment of reflection"? What possible inconvenience could it actually cause someone? How does it possibly offend someone that some people take a few moments to really think and reflect on a great moment at hand like a graduation? So what if some people use that time to pray? Some people use it to remember what brought them to that point and really bring themselves to focus on their, or their children's, accomplishment. There are many different types of people, many different mindsets and stances on belief. I can't see why theists and non-theists alike can't take a moment to slow down and take in the importance of the event. For some that may include prayer, yes, but it doesn't for everyone and those people can use the exact same time however they wish to use it. Whichever way it is used individually, it is used as a whole to bring everyone into the moment at hand. Now how is that a bad thing? I honestly think some people just want to be offended over something. This would be absolutely nothing to get offended over and yet some will still find something to gripe about.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Honestly, where is the harm in a "moment of reflection"? What possible inconvenience could it actually cause someone? How does it possibly offend someone that some people take a few moments to really think and reflect on a great moment at hand like a graduation? So what if some people use that time to pray? Some people use it to remember what brought them to that point and really bring themselves to focus on their, or their children's, accomplishment. There are many different types of people, many different mindsets and stances on belief. I can't see why theists and non-theists alike can't take a moment to slow down and take in the importance of the event. For some that may include prayer, yes, but it doesn't for everyone and those people can use the exact same time however they wish to use it. Whichever way it is used individually, it is used as a whole to bring everyone into the moment at hand. Now how is that a bad thing? I honestly think some people just want to be offended over something. This would be absolutely nothing to get offended over and yet some will still find something to gripe about.

I don't think anyone is offended by the idea of having a moment of reflection (but I'll only speak for myself). It's the fact that it doesn't really need to be done. Everyone is capable of reflecting on their own. The entire event doesn't need to stop to accomodate it, even if just for a minute or so. Nobody has to pray or "reflect" at that moment. If you go to a hockey game, you go there to see a hockey game - not to pray or to reflect.

If I had a desire to pray or reflect before an event, I'd do so to myself and I wouldn't expect the event to stop just so I could do it. It's not that the 30-60 seconds of pause is unreasonable and that I'm offended by it. It's just that it's unnecessary.

Oh and P.S. My girlfriend is from Iowa too Quad Cities. Davenport. I'm going down there this August. I expect to melt into a pool of water. Heat hasn't been invented yet in Canada.

 

[Draka]

I don't think anyone is offended by the idea of having a moment of reflection (but I'll only speak for myself). It's the fact that it doesn't really need to be done. Everyone is capable of reflecting on their own. The entire event doesn't need to stop to accomodate it, even if just for a minute or so. Nobody has to pray or "reflect" at that moment. If you go to a hockey game, you go there to see a hockey game - not to pray or to reflect.

If I had a desire to pray or reflect before an event, I'd do so to myself and I wouldn't expect the event to stop just so I could do it. It's not that the 30-60 seconds of pause is unreasonable and that I'm offended by it. It's just that it's unnecessary.

Oh and P.S. My girlfriend is from Iowa too Quad Cities. Davenport. I'm going down there this August. I expect to melt into a pool of water. Heat hasn't been invented yet in Canada.

What does it matter if someone considers it "unnecessary"? Some might feel it called for. For that matter, a graduation ceremony isn't "necessary" at all anyway. Kids can just have their diplomas handed to them on the last day of school or mailed to them for that matter. So..., so what if there's an "unnecessary" moment to reflect at an "unnecessary" event? The valedictory speech is "unnecessary". The gowns are "unnecessary". The caps are "unnecessary". So does it really matter if there is an "unnecessary" moment of time given to think and reflect or even pray if a person wants to? Just because something is "unnecessary" doesn't mean it can't be a nice thing to do.

 

[Vile Atheist]

What does it matter if someone considers it "unnecessary"? Some might feel it called for. For that matter, a graduation ceremony isn't "necessary" at all anyway. Kids can just have their diplomas handed to them on the last day of school or mailed to them for that matter. So..., so what if there's an "unnecessary" moment to reflect at an "unnecessary" event? The valedictory speech is "unnecessary". The gowns are "unnecessary". The caps are "unnecessary". So does it really matter if there is an "unnecessary" moment of time given to think and reflect or even pray if a person wants to? Just because something is "unnecessary" doesn't mean it can't be a nice thing to do.

I'm not saying it isn't a nice thing to do, even if it's unnecessary. And it's not that "some feel it is unnecessary". It IS unnecessary. Nobody -needs- to pray at the beginning of a graduation ceremony, but sure, for those who are religious, it's a nice thing.

Why does the event need to stop for whatever amount of time to accomodate it? If you feel prayer is important, by all means pray to yourself. Nobody is stopping you.

 

[blackout]

I don't think anyone is offended by the idea of having a moment of reflection (but I'll only speak for myself). It's the fact that it doesn't really need to be done. Everyone is capable of reflecting on their own. The entire event doesn't need to stop to accomodate it, even if just for a minute or so. Nobody has to pray or "reflect" at that moment. If you go to a hockey game, you go there to see a hockey game - not to pray or to reflect.

If I had a desire to pray or reflect before an event, I'd do so to myself and I wouldn't expect the event to stop just so I could do it. It's not that the 30-60 seconds of pause is unreasonable and that I'm offended by it. It's just that it's unnecessary.

Oh and P.S. My girlfriend is from Iowa too Quad Cities. Davenport. I'm going down there this August. I expect to melt into a pool of water. Heat hasn't been invented yet in Canada.

Most "events" don't "require" much of anything at all.
PEOPLE create events.
People design and make them whatever they are.

For example,
Graduations do not "require" caps and gowns.
It's an expense.
Perhaps some of us do not want to have to fund
unnecessary things like caps and gowns.
Neither do they "require" key note speakers.
Graduates and their families,
who paid out THOUSANDS of dollars
for their education
often are forced to sit through
speeches they disagree with,
that upset them,
by speakers they absolutely cannot stand,
spouting things
they absolutely DO NOT BELIEVE IN.
These speakers do not represent THEM,
or their beliefs,
in any shape way or form.
This also, is completely unnecessary,
to the event of graduating.
(to which only the actual pronouncement/certification
of graduation is TRULY needed/necessary to the event)

I could go on,
but do not have the time.

 

[Kathryn]

Last night we went to a graduation ceremony. It was opened with an invocation by a Muslim student and closed with a benediction by a Christian student.

I am happy to report that everyone survived both prayers.

 

[Vinayaka]

UV: I just skipped my grad. People just don't realise the power they have. You don't have to go. When I get to some place like a funeral where I'm obliged have to hear opposing views, I just concentrate, and chant my Hindu mantra.

 

[McBell]

Last night we went to a graduation ceremony. It was opened with an invocation by a Muslim student and closed with a benediction by a Christian student.

I am happy to report that everyone survived both prayers.

Well, so far everyone has survived.
Never really know how long the lingering effects might last...

 

[Kathryn]

Well, so far everyone has survived.
Never really know how long the lingering effects might last...

I didn't take any sort of poll, but I didn't get the feeling that anyone was emotionally scarred by either prayer.

By the way, an aside note - personally I thought the Muslim prayer was beautiful (it was some sort of formal reading of what I took to be a traditional prayer - sort of like there are traditional prayers in Christianity like the Lord's Prayer). I was very glad to see a large group of Baptists (the largest group of Christians in East Texas) subjected to it!

I didn't hear or notice any sort of discomfort, or hear any murmurings from the crowd when the Muslim prayer was read - and I thought it was quite appropriate considering our valedictorian and another Top Ten student are practicing Muslims who are very open about their faith - and quite popular and respected by their peers too, for that matter.

But I digress.

 

[Revoltingest]

Last night we went to a graduation ceremony. It was opened with an invocation by a Muslim student and closed with a benediction by a Christian student.
I am happy to report that everyone survived both prayers.

What a relief!
I'm OK with students saying such things from a personal standpoint.
(I only object when it's under the color or governmental authority.)
Do you suppose they'd allow a Revoltifarian prayer?
Just how far does this religious tolerance go?
Could someone praise Satan, Thor, Gozer or Krom?

 

[Kathryn]

What a relief!
I'm OK with students saying such things from a personal standpoint.
(I only object when it's under the color or governmental authority.)
Do you suppose they'd allow a Revoltifarian prayer?
Just how far does this religious tolerance go?
Could someone praise Satan, Thor, Gozer or Krom?

I dunno - I'd say in small town East Texas, for a Muslim to be able to open a graduation ceremony with a Muslim prayer is a very big step!

 

[Revoltingest]

I dunno - I'd say in small town East Texas, for a Muslim to be able to open a graduation ceremony with a Muslim prayer is a very big step!

True dat!

 

[heavenlyarts]

FIrst off, your quote about "religion being like a penis," is incredibly disgusting and perverted, no, religion is not like a penis, that is sick. There is nothing wrong with people being public with their faith. Jesus told us not to show off in public by acting pious and religious, but there's nothing wrong with witnessing in public, Jeus did this all the time, and he healed people and prayed in public.

Second, my Christian faith is not a religion. True Christian faith is not a religion it is a relationship with God. And no it is not a sexual relationship, so don't come up with any sick perverrted jokes you understand? It is a father-child relationship, I am a bit weird so I think God can be both mother and father, in the Bible in Proverbs it speaks of wisdom as "she" and Isaiah compares god's love and longing for His lost people to a woman's love for her nursing baby. Just like a mother cannot forget or abandon the child she is nursing, neither can God forget about his human children. We are all God's children.


God loves you and so do I, that is why we Christian spread the gospel, so that none will perish. I tell people god and his son Jesus loves them because I don't want anyone to go to hell. We are all sinners, there is darkness, sin and evil in all human hearts but many deny it and refuse to repent of their sins.

I have been angry when people refuse to listen to me and have gotten frustrated and have thought, "to hell with them" but that is worng, it is evil, the spirit of Satan tempting me to be mean, cruel and selfish, hateful and evil, i must fight against that dark demonic spairit and send Jesus in me to fight agaisnt Satan that tempts me through my emotions. I get angry, the Bible says "Be angry and do not sin." So there is nothing wrong with being angry, but if you sin while you are angry, that is wrong.

I am not trying to hurt anybody with my witnessing, just the opposite, I am trying to help people, perhaps if I read the Bible more and memorized it, prayed asked for God's help, the guidance of the Holy Spirit to give me the right words.


I don't understand why so many of you witchcraft people have rejected Christianity and you are against Christians. You act like Christians are bad guys for some reason.

Most of the Christians I know in the churches I've been to, and I've been to a lot of churches, are very nice. I have met some crazy religious fanatics, I have them in the family. I've met some mean Christian bullies as well, and their are always the bully preachers, the corrupt liberal con artists preachers that cheat people out of their money. I would not trust the preachers and Christians on TV and be wary of megachurches and charismatic cult leaders, not everyone calling themselves "Christian" matches up with the true spirit of Christ.


When my family goes out to eat at a restaraunt, we pray before eating the food. It doesn't matter if other people stare at us or whisper at us or if the waiter or waitress doesn't like it, we still do it. When I'm a home I pray before eating to bless the food and thank God for my food too. Without God we would not have food.

 

[waitasec]

Last night we went to a graduation ceremony. It was opened with an invocation by a Muslim student and closed with a benediction by a Christian student.

I am happy to report that everyone survived both prayers.