Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, that's not a compromise. That is eliminating the observance altogether. Many people pray all of the time. This is about acknowledging a time, yes, in place of spoken prayer, to acknowledge the significance of the event. Eliminating that is not a compromise.

Events can be acknowledged as significant without prayer. And while prayer may denote significance for you, it denotes exclusion for me.

If the purpose is to commemorate significance, then why not use any of the many forms of symbolism that express this for everyone present? Why do you need prayer specifically?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Well, yeah, that would be totally inappropriate. Why would you do that?

We are talking about a moment of silence to replace the traditional benediction at graduation ceremonies. I agree with Christine that sporting events and other public events are different, and I really have no idea why they pray at car races. Maybe for protection of the drivers? At meetings of Congress prayer probably is also tradition, but it certainly does not impact me, so I guess it's up to the members of Congress what they want to do about that.

Common and/or traditional as it may be, it's not necessary.

When my father went to high school, they'd begin each assembly (and there was one every Tuesday) with the Pledge of Allegiance, the Star Spangled Banner, the 23rd Psalm and the lord's prayer. It was a public school.

These days, all there is is the pledge (and in some cases, the Star Spangled Banner). And that's it.

It may have been common and/or traditional to open up a school day with a prayer... but that was deemed inappropriate, and is simply no longer done. Heck, they didn't even replace it with a moment of silence. They simply did away with it.

As for prayer in Congress... James Madison is rolling over in his grave.

 

[waitasec]

Events can be acknowledged as significant without prayer. And while prayer may denote significance for you, it denotes exclusion for me.

If the purpose is to commemorate significance, then why not use any of the many forms of symbolism that express this for everyone present? Why do you need prayer specifically?

i think it's a matter of want not need...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree with Christine that sporting events and other public events are different, and I really have no idea why they pray at car races. Maybe for protection of the drivers?

I think it's mainly brand affinity: they're marketing to Christians and presenting their drivers as role models/ideals to strive for, so they have to be Christian as well. Then, all that's necessary to make you like them is to buy the "right" consumer products, as determined by the driver's sponsors.

At meetings of Congress prayer probably is also tradition, but it certainly does not impact me, so I guess it's up to the members of Congress what they want to do about that.

The proceedings of Congress don't impact you? I'm not sure whether to take this as cynical or undemocratic.

 

[lunamoth]

It's entirely about that, IMO. I do agree with the idea of reasonable accommodation for religion, but no special accommodation is warranted for something that needs no accommodation.

If I am attending a ceremony I want to pay attention to what is going on. If it were important to me to thank God or ask for God's blessing, I would appreciate a moment of silence to be included for that to happen. Personally speaking, I do not like spoken prayer, but I do very much appreciate silence for internal, meditative prayer. So, if you agree with reasonable accommodation, and we are talking here about 30 seconds of silence, this seems like a very reasonable accommodation.

It's also about the necessity of sanctioned prayer in this context. You're creating an imposition for others, so it requires some sort of justification.

The imposition, for those who just want to get on with it, is 30 seconds long. It is justified by the good will it generates between neighbors.

And here's my opinion: the significance of prayer varies from person to person. To some people, it's very important; to others, it's not important at all. Therefore, it's not normally something that is of common importance to all people at a public event. Things that are not of common importance should not be included in the official program, especially if they have nothing to do with the purpose of the event.

"Common importance" sound like weasel words to me. How are you going to measure that? We'd never do anything if we needed 100%, or even 90% agreement on something.

 

[Poisonshady313]

No, that's not a compromise. That is eliminating the observance altogether. Many people pray all of the time. This is about acknowledging a time, yes, in place of spoken prayer, to acknowledge the significance of the event. Eliminating that is not a compromise.

The one thing that usually gets brought to the surface in any discussion on this matter is Christians claiming that their freedom to exercise their religion is being impaired by doing away with an invocation to open up public ceremonies.

As Penguin and I have pointed out, this is simply not the case.

As for prayers typically opening up graduation ceremonies... it's not necessary. But more than that, for the reasons listed by Penguin and myself, it's bad form.

You want prayer at a graduation ceremony, go to a private religious school. You'll have all the prayer led ceremonies you can handle.

 

[lunamoth]

I think it's mainly brand affinity: they're marketing to Christians and presenting their drivers as role models/ideals to strive for, so they have to be Christian as well. Then, all that's necessary to make you like them is to buy the "right" consumer products, as determined by the driver's sponsors.

Hey, it's your sport. Are you asking them to stop the practice?

The proceedings of Congress don't impact you? I'm not sure whether to take this as cynical or undemocratic.

Nice red herring. Whether they pray together at the start of their meetings does not affect me.

 

[lunamoth]

Events can be acknowledged as significant without prayer. And while prayer may denote significance for you, it denotes exclusion for me.

If the purpose is to commemorate significance, then why not use any of the many forms of symbolism that express this for everyone present? Why do you need prayer specifically?

That's why I like the moment of silence, better.

 

[Poisonshady313]

i think it's a matter of want not need...

As I mentioned, Christians often find the idea of doing away with an invocation before a public event to be infringing on their religious freedoms.... which, at least from their perspective, transforms it into need rather than want.

 

[lunamoth]

The one thing that usually gets brought to the surface in any discussion on this matter is Christians claiming that their freedom to exercise their religion is being impaired by doing away with an invocation to open up public ceremonies.

As Penguin and I have pointed out, this is simply not the case.

As for prayers typically opening up graduation ceremonies... it's not necessary. But more than that, for the reasons listed by Penguin and myself, it's bad form.

You want prayer at a graduation ceremony, go to a private religious school. You'll have all the prayer led ceremonies you can handle.

Poisonshady, your posts have made me curious. Don't Jews pray? I'm not trying to make this personal, but your religion title says Jewish. You don't have to answer because I know it is getting off topic, but as I said, I'm just curious.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If I am attending a ceremony I want to pay attention to what is going on. If it were important to me to thank God or ask for God's blessing, I would appreciate a moment of silence to be included for that to happen. Personally speaking, I do not like spoken prayer, but I do very much appreciate silence for internal, meditative prayer. So, if you agree with reasonable accommodation, and we are talking here about 30 seconds of silence, this seems like a very reasonable accommodation.


The imposition, for those who just want to get on with it, is 30 seconds long. It is justified by the good will it generates between neighbors.

I think Penguin talked about this already before.

If you're talking about a moment of prayer for reflection's sake, and some people might choose to use that time for prayer, that's one thing.

But to specifically make that moment of silence a method of accommodating those who insist on prayer at such events while attempting to make it palatable for those who aren't playing along... such accommodation shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Poisonshady, your posts have made me curious. Don't Jews pray? I'm not trying to make this personal, but your religion title says Jewish. You don't have to answer because I know it is getting off topic, but as I said, I'm just curious.

We certainly do. We pray all the time. We don't just say grace before meals... we say it AFTER meals too. Formally, we gather at least three times a day, every day, for prayer as a congregation... and there are all kinds of moments in life/throughout one's day that call for prayer.


However, I won't ask a Rabbi to deliver an invocation at a NASCAR event, graduation ceremony, or session of congress... because that's not the place for such a thing.

And if it came to that, though it may still leave out the atheists in the group, I would expect it to be (and usually is) delivered in such a way that religious people who are NOT Jews wouldn't have a problem being able to say "Amen".

 

[lunamoth]

As I mentioned, Christians often find the idea of doing away with an invocation before a public event to be infringing on their religious freedoms.... which, at least from their perspective, transforms it into need rather than want.

I don't really see this as an issue of religious freedom, or free speech. You mentioned in your other post that prayer was dropped from public schools at the start of the day, and it could be that the benediction at graduations goes the same way, at least at public schools.

However, the benediction has been a long-standing tradition at graduations. To drop it altogether, and not have a moment of silence in its place, is to remove a part of the graduation ceremony that is meaningful to many people. As long as it is still meaningful, and can be reasonably accommodated by a moment of silence instead of prayer, this seems like a good compromise.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's why I like the moment of silence, better.

Yes... the "prayer hole". It's still exclusionary in this context.

Also, it's inappropriate for another reason: i remember before this recent fad of using a moment of silence as a way to accommodate prayer while not breaking the law, a moment of silence had very specific symbolism and use: as a commemoration of the dead. IMO, using it in the opening of some sporting event or council meeting diminishes its significance for this original use. Putting the same sort of moment of silence on a baseball game as on a Remembrance Day ceremony symbolically equates the game with the ceremony.

 

[lunamoth]

If you're talking about a moment of prayer for reflection's sake, and some people might choose to use that time for prayer, that's one thing.

I think, I hope, we are in agreement then, because this is what I am talking about.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I don't really see this as an issue of religious freedom, or free speech. You mentioned in your other post that prayer was dropped from public schools at the start of the day, and it could be that the benediction at graduations goes the same way, at least at public schools.

However, the benediction has been a long-standing tradition at graduations. To drop it altogether, and not have a moment of silence in its place, is to remove a part of the graduation ceremony that is meaningful to many people. As long as it is still meaningful, and can be reasonably accommodated by a moment of silence instead of prayer, this seems like a good compromise.

I promise you that if a graduation ceremony commenced that didn't involve some sort of benediction or moment of silence, it would not be damaging to the practice of having graduation ceremonies.

 

[lunamoth]

We certainly do. We pray all the time. We don't just say grace before meals... we say it AFTER meals too. Formally, we gather at least three times a day, every day, for prayer as a congregation... and there are all kinds of moments in life/throughout one's day that call for prayer.


However, I won't ask a Rabbi to deliver an invocation at a NASCAR event, graduation ceremony, or session of congress... because that's not the place for such a thing.

And if it came to that, though it may still leave out the atheists in the group, I would expect it to be (and usually is) delivered in such a way that religious people who are NOT Jews wouldn't have a problem being able to say "Amen".

Thanks! I would personally love to hear a Rabbi deliver a talk which moved me to say "Amen!" Frankly, I'd even like this at a graduation ceremony. :run:

 

[lunamoth]

Yes... the "prayer hole". It's still exclusionary in this context.

Only if you insist on calling it a prayer hole.

Also, it's inappropriate for another reason: i remember before this recent fad of using a moment of silence as a way to accommodate prayer while not breaking the law, a moment of silence had very specific symbolism and use: as a commemoration of the dead. IMO, using it in the opening of some sporting event or council meeting diminishes its significance for this original use. Putting the same sort of moment of silence on a baseball game as on a Remembrance Day ceremony symbolically equates the game with the ceremony.

I don't think this is an issue. We say some of the same prayers at funerals, baptisms, and weddings and it does not impinge on the intent of the different events. Moments of silence can be used in celebration and contemplation of significant events, as well as in remembrance.

 

[lunamoth]

I promise you that if a graduation ceremony commenced that didn't involve some sort of benediction or moment of silence, it would not be damaging to the practice of having graduation ceremonies.

Maybe, maybe not. Clearly there are some people who find time for prayer at the start of graduation ceremonies very meaningful. A moment of silence would be a reasonable compromise, rather than just eliminating this aspect of the ceremony altogether. Yes, the meaning would change for people who would not use this time for prayer, but it would still include people who want to pray as part of this event.

 

[blackout]

I don't see any problem with
"A moment of reflection".

We all have things to reflect on, after all.
Whatever they may be.

A moment of reflection,
is a reflection of the individual PEOPLE there.

People who choose to "pray" instead of reflect,
actually, are not participating
in the moment of reflection.

If a person chooses to "prayerfully reflect",
this is no reflection on you either.
It is but one individual's personal form of reflection.

So include a moment of personal reflection.
Personal reflection is a good thing IMO.
No reason not to encourage and make room for it.
It's only a few seconds of your time,
and it can help put you in the right frame of mind
for the event.
Life is busy, we all run around,
thinking of a hundred things at once.

Breath, and focus, at the start of an event,
cannot be a bad thing for anyone.