Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[ChristineES]

I like the moment of silence approach to this. When it comes to prayer, silence is often more powerful than words.

That would be the best solution, except I have heard some people in the past say they didn't want that even (although I can't figure out why).

 

[waitasec]

I agree with you. They want to be tolerated by us, but they don't seem to want to tolerate us. It may not be that way, but that is they way it is beginning to appear.
I starting to see it as the "it has to be my way, or I am offended" mentality.

well if you look at it from another perspective...it's not just prayer that 'we' have to tolerate is it...

it's the religious right who have been sticking their noses in many things by infringing on personal freedoms.
from marriage to adoption to blue laws, which are still enforced in some states,
to what is being taught in our schools. so when 'we' want to remove a monument of the ten commandments from an alabama state courthouse then we are intolerant when it's very presence is unlawful according to the 1st amendment?

so this prayer thing is really only a small part of it...
every individual has the right to pray in their schools, or wear religious symbols if they choose to do so... it's the principal of the thing....equality for all not just for the majority...

the christian religion has been infused within our culture and those who adhere to this doctrine don't notice it as much, as those who do not, see what i mean?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree with you. They want to be tolerated by us, but they don't seem to want to tolerate us. It may not be that way, but that is they way it is beginning to appear.

I don't see why you're saying that. Nobody's trying to take away your right to pray... pray all you want individually. The issue is only in imposing prayer on others, as is done when you have an officially sanctioned invocation or call to prayer at a public event.

I starting to see it as the "it has to be my way, or I am offended" mentality.

Speaking for myself, I don't want to impose on anyone, so I don't even suggest an option that would impose on others. IOW, what I'm suggesting is what I view as the best compromise that addresses everyone's needs and wants as well as it could. Any further compromise from this is going to make things worse than they could be.

I'm certainly not advocating for a French-style prohibition on religious expression. Express your religious beliefs however you want: wear a cross or hijab, pray, whatever. But what I do ask for is that the public institutions that are meant to represent all of us not be used in a way that deliberately excludes me.

And I don't see why this would be viewed as an unreasonable demand.

That would be the best solution, except I have heard some people in the past say they didn't want that even (although I can't figure out why).

I'm opposed to it. Rather than an actual prayer, you give people a prayer-shaped hole in the schedule.

IMO, it's still officially sanctioned prayer, only with a nod and a wink: "we're not calling it prayer, but you all know what you're supposed to be doing here, right?"

 

[Draka]

I'm opposed to it. Rather than an actual prayer, you give people a prayer-shaped hole in the schedule.

IMO, it's still officially sanctioned prayer, only with a nod and a wink: "we're not calling it prayer, but you all know what you're supposed to be doing here, right?"

Just wondering, would you view it the same way if, at an event like a graduation, a "moment of reflection" was taken? I mean, that would give people prompting to look back at the things that brought them there to that point. For some that might mean a chance to pray or thank whatever deity they believe helped them through difficult times, and for others that might mean taking stock of where they've come from and what they've worked through and realize how far they've come. A chance to reminisce and be proud. Atheists do that as well as theists, so wouldn't that be an all-inclusive kind of thing?

 

[tarekabdo12]

If some of what they believe is rationally wrong, so there is no problem if you argue with them using evidence and rationale. If they change a wrong belief, they'd live a better and happier life. Moreover, if somebody doesn't want to hear this dialogue , u can't enforce him 2 do so. It must be his own choice 2 search and talk like those people present in this forum. They chose to discuss and debate rationally with complete freedom. Yet, there is a Dir where u can't enforce ur ideas on others. I think this is pretty fair.

 

[ChristineES]

I just don't see how a "moment of silence" could hurt or harm anyone or offend anyone. A person wouldn't need to pray, and could think about their grocery list at the time.

 

[waitasec]

I just don't see how a "moment of silence" could hurt or harm anyone or offend anyone. A person wouldn't need to pray, and could think about their grocery list at the time.

how about this;

if you hear someone shout out 'farfigneuton' when their big toe was smashed...
wouldn't you take that as a candy coated version of the f word?

it's saying we want to acknowledge those who have faith and those who don't have to put up with it...and as i mentioned before, this is the tip of the ice berg...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just wondering, would you view it the same way if, at an event like a graduation, a "moment of reflection" was taken? I mean, that would give people prompting to look back at the things that brought them there to that point. For some that might mean a chance to pray or thank whatever deity they believe helped them through difficult times, and for others that might mean taking stock of where they've come from and what they've worked through and realize how far they've come. A chance to reminisce and be proud. Atheists do that as well as theists, so wouldn't that be an all-inclusive kind of thing?

I think it would depend how it was presented and how it came about. If it was genuinely out of a desire for reflection, then it might be okay. If it was something that came out of a spirit of "well, since we aren't allowed to have a full-blown prayer here any more, let's have something that's as close to prayer as we can get away with without getting in trouble", then I would still have a problem with it.

I just don't see how a "moment of silence" could hurt or harm anyone or offend anyone. A person wouldn't need to pray, and could think about their grocery list at the time.

Here's the thing: would we even be talking about having a "moment of silence" in a public event if not for the tradition of prayer in these sorts of circumstances?

I think I've already explained why it's inappropriate for a public event to set aside time for your prayer; I think it's also a waste of everyone's time to set aside time for me to think about my grocery list. Whatever we're gathered together for, be it a public meeting, a sporting event, a graduation or whatever, just get on with it, IMO. If the thing is important enough for a big ceremony, then it shouldn't be subject to distractions like this.

 

[waitasec]

Here's the thing: would we even be talking about having a "moment of silence" in a public event if not for the tradition of prayer in these sorts of circumstances?

well said!!!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Could anyone explain to me why it would be unreasonable to have a public event without a prayer or a moment of silence? I mean, if you really do feel the need to pray before it starts, nobody's stopping you from praying in your car in the parking lot before you come in. Heck - nobody's stopping you from praying in your seat before the event starts, or even from praying silently through the whole event if you want.

 

[ChristineES]

Could anyone explain to me why it would be unreasonable to have a public event without a prayer or a moment of silence? I mean, if you really do feel the need to pray before it starts, nobody's stopping you from praying in your car in the parking lot before you come in. Heck - nobody's stopping you from praying in your seat before the event starts, or even from praying silently through the whole event if you want.

I can say the same thing: If you don't want to hear a prayer or experience a moment of silence, then you, too can wait in the parking lot. Nobody is forcing you to come in a listen to it.
I don't mean to be rude, but why are some people's rights more important that others? We should both have rights, not just you and not just me. That would mean a compromise. Which I thought a moment of silence would be (it would be better than 100 faiths praying).

 

[Poisonshady313]

I can say the same thing: If you don't want to hear a prayer or experience a moment of silence, then you, too can wait in the parking lot. Nobody is forcing you to come in a listen to it.

That's a rotten thing to say. Absolutely horrible. If I'm at my (insert family member)'s graduation, I should get up out of my seat and wait in the parking lot while YOU need to say a prayer at an event which is not religious? Who the hell do you think you are, that you need to interrupt the proceedings with something which requires me to just wait in the parking lot? Inconsiderate is too friendly a word for it. It's despicable.

I don't mean to be rude, but why are some people's rights more important that others? We should both have rights, not just you and not just me. That would mean a compromise. Which I thought a moment of silence would be (it would be better than 100 faiths praying).

It is not your right to start a graduation ceremony with a prayer.

It just isn't.

 

[lunamoth]

Could anyone explain to me why it would be unreasonable to have a public event without a prayer or a moment of silence? I mean, if you really do feel the need to pray before it starts, nobody's stopping you from praying in your car in the parking lot before you come in. Heck - nobody's stopping you from praying in your seat before the event starts, or even from praying silently through the whole event if you want.

I actually can't think of very many public events where opening prayer is common, graduation ceremonies being the main one that comes to mind. I have not been to a sporting event that opened with prayer, but I do not go to car races. I would say prayer, or a moment of silence for reflection, is appropriate at a graduation ceremony because it is a rite of passage and it has a long tradition of having a benediction at the start. Like marriages and funerals, the majority of people in this country still see this as being an event where they wish to thank God for his providence, or, in other traditions, mark the event as a sacred transition in life.

I personally don't feel all that strongly about keeping the benediction or moment of silence at graduations, but I think the moment of silence would be appreciated by the majority of people and it does nothing to hurt people there who are not religious. I would keep it be neighborly.

 

[ChristineES]

That's a rotten thing to say. Absolutely horrible. If I'm at my (insert family member)'s graduation, I should get up out of my seat and wait in the parking lot while YOU need to say a prayer at an event which is not religious? Who the hell do you think you are, that you need to interrupt the proceedings with something which requires me to just wait in the parking lot? Inconsiderate is too friendly a word for it. It's despicable.





It is not your right to start a graduation ceremony with a prayer.

It just isn't.

I was only repeating what was said to me (what was quoted)- I didn't really mean what I said (you could tell that if you looked). Why is rotten only for me to say it?

And what the heck is wrong with a moment of silence? It doesn't infringe on anyone's rights. You don't even HAVE to pray in that silence. What is wrong with a compromise? No one wants to meet half way. We can't always have our way. If most of the people there don't want prayer, then I would not really expect it to happen. But if most of the people do want it, then why is it called a mob rule? If it is a mob rule, why is not having a moment of silence not considered mob rule, too?
I don't really need or even want an answer. I am trying to be reasonable and to think of compromises. I just can't understand any of it. I spent my whole life trying to make compromises so everyone can be happy. But it seems that everyone just wants everything to go their own way and to heck with what anyone else wants. I thought we all had rights, theists and atheists.
I am done with this debate. I am going around in circles.
See you guys in the next debate.

 

[lunamoth]

That's a rotten thing to say. Absolutely horrible. If I'm at my (insert family member)'s graduation, I should get up out of my seat and wait in the parking lot while YOU need to say a prayer at an event which is not religious? Who the hell do you think you are, that you need to interrupt the proceedings with something which requires me to just wait in the parking lot? Inconsiderate is too friendly a word for it. It's despicable.

Christine does not deserve this diatribe. She used that example in response to someone else using the reverse example to her. Chill. :cold:

 

[ChristineES]

Christine does not deserve this diatribe. She used that example in response to someone else using the reverse example to her. Chill. :cold:

Thanks, Luna. You explained that better than I did.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can say the same thing: If you don't want to hear a prayer or experience a moment of silence, then you, too can wait in the parking lot. Nobody is forcing you to come in a listen to it.

There's often no opportunity to do that. For one thing, the invocation or whatever often isn't announced in the program of an event (if there is a program). Should I just wait outside of every public event until after the preliminaries on the off chance that there will be a prayer?

For another, there are often plenty of people at a public event who have no choice but to be present: employees, participants, people who had to get there early to get a seat, etc.

For instance, I've mentioned that I'm a race marshal. I don't know why, but auto racing is one of those things where people like to slap Christianity on it, so lots of events have an invocation before the start of the main race. However, I can't leave - I'm required to be on station well in advance of the start of the race. OTOH, if there's no official prayer at all, there's nothing stopping a marshal from doing their own individual prayer.

I don't mean to be rude, but why are some people's rights more important that others? We should both have rights, not just you and not just me. That would mean a compromise. Which I thought a moment of silence would be (it would be better than 100 faiths praying).

Are you saying you have a right to officially sanctioned prayer (or a moment of silence "prayer hole") at public events? Exactly what right of yours is being infringed if you aren't given this?

And frankly, it is a compromise already to let people pray individually but have no officially sanctioned prayer. Think of it on a spectrum of possiblities:

- extreme #1: nobody's allowed to pray, sanctioned or otherwise.
- the happy medium: nobody's forced to pray, but nobody's prohibited from praying.
- extreme #2: prayer is forced on everyone, even those who don't want it.

What I'm suggesting is already the compromise. Nobody's imposing themselves on anyone else - everyone's free to believe what they want and express those beliefs as they want.

Again: why would this arrangement be unreasonable?

 

[waitasec]

I can say the same thing: If you don't want to hear a prayer or experience a moment of silence, then you, too can wait in the parking lot. Nobody is forcing you to come in a listen to it.
I don't mean to be rude, but why are some people's rights more important that others? We should both have rights, not just you and not just me. That would mean a compromise. Which I thought a moment of silence would be (it would be better than 100 faiths praying).

exactly, why are other peoples rights more important than others...?
this 'compromise' still excludes other people...just the simple act of it...
it's like being the only brown haired person in school and being excluded from certain activities for that reason... ridiculous, right? or lets say the moment of reflection was directed towards the devil as the norm, would you be comfortable with that?

 

[lunamoth]

or lets say the moment of reflection was directed towards the devil as the norm,

It's a moment of silent reflection that is being discussed. You can direct it toward the devil or your aunt Matilda, or reflect on the accomplishment, or on how thankful you are to the people who supported you. It's not specified.

 

[ChristineES]

exactly, why are other peoples rights more important than others...?
this 'compromise' still excludes other people...just the simple act of it...
it's like being the only brown haired person in school and being excluded from certain activities for that reason... ridiculous, right? or lets say the moment of reflection was directed towards the devil as the norm, would you be comfortable with that?

I suppose we just have to decide who is going to excluded, because someone will be excluded either way.

I wouldn't worry about what people are thinking about in that moment of silence. If they think of the devil, that is their choice. If they think about what they want for dinner, that is their choice. If they think about how stupid any of this is, that is their choice. If they think of God, then that is their choice. And I was only speaking of graduation ceremonies, anyway, not of sporting events or anything else. That would be a whole different discussion for me.