Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Poisonshady313]

I think both sides have a point. Back in the early 80s, in high school, we were talking about graduation and baccalaureate. (not my class, the one before it, I think). They were going to have a priest or something. Two young ladies, who were graduating, said at lunch one day "If they get to have a priest, I want to bring in my Rabbi". I thought that had a point (I wasn't even a theist then) and I thought, "why can't they bring in some other religious leaders, as well as a priest?" My view of the "if everyone can't have theirs, there will be none" might be a bit extreme. Of course, there would have to be some kind of limit or prayers would go on for too long (I mean on the length of prayers). But it is something that the people graduating need to discuss.

all or none is not extreme. Those are the only acceptable choices. But all doesn't have to mean a parade of clergy members. It can be someone who offers a nonsectarian prayer that everyone involved can respond "amen" to. It's not that hard, people do it all the time and it isn't stifling anyones rights or prohibiting their "free exercise thereof."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My view of the "if everyone can't have theirs, there will be none" might be a bit extreme.

Why? It's not like anyone needs an officially sanctioned prayer at a graduation. If there's no prayer offered, nothing bad would happen at all.

If some of the participants feel a pressing need to mark the event with a prayer, they do their own prayers individually.

all or none is not extreme. Those are the only acceptable choices. But all doesn't have to mean a parade of clergy members. It can be someone who offers a nonsectarian prayer that everyone involved can respond "amen" to. It's not that hard, people do it all the time and it isn't stifling anyones rights or prohibiting their "free exercise thereof."

I'm not going to be responding with "amen" to any prayer.

Speaking for myself, if there's any prayer at all at a public event where I'm participating, I would feel somewhat excluded.

I don't think it's possible to come up with a prayer that represents everyone, because not everybody prays.

Edit: IMO, any sort of prayer is probably going to be exclusionary to at least some of the people there. At an event like a graduation, which is supposed to commemorate all of the graduands, I think it's inappropriate to do something that has this effect.

 

[waitasec]

all or none is not extreme. Those are the only acceptable choices. But all doesn't have to mean a parade of clergy members. It can be someone who offers a nonsectarian prayer that everyone involved can respond "amen" to. It's not that hard, people do it all the time and it isn't stifling anyones rights or prohibiting their "free exercise thereof."

and at the end of the prayer instead of saying amen, the non theists would say...:help: why am i being subjected to this...?

i think 'none' would be the appropriate thing in a public gathering...
it's just annoying that non theists are always not considered or taken for granted ... which seems to be the norm.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I just figured atheists and such would be irritated at being excluded and having their time wasted, but wouldn't necessarily feel the same sort of violation as someone who belonged to a faith that made it a sin to engage in the prayers/rituals of idolatrous faiths.

I could be wrong. I don't know how personally you guys take it.

 

[Harmonious]

The following is narrated in the Tract Kallah, 1b:

Regarding tract kallah: The quotation by jungle does not exist. This is a complete fabrication, and even the reference numbers are fabricated.

Even before I looked to see WHAT the story was, I already knew this source was a complete fabrication from whole cloth.

I didn't have to look beyond the fact that the page was 1b.

NO TRACTATE starts with page 1. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM starts with page 2.

It has something to do with Torah having no beginning or ending, and so starting the pagination with 1 would signify a beginning, and like that.

But the thing is this: This is SOP for any Tractate of the Talmud, both Bavli, and Yerushalmi. So... Whatever was supposedly found on page 1 is fictitious, a pipe dream from someone's agenda that has nothing to do with anything Jewish.

 

[Harmonious]

A second look also shows this was made of whole cloth: there IS no Tractate "Kallah".

There is a Tractate "Challa" (alternately, "Halla"), and a Tractate "Kiddushin," but no Tractate "Kallah."

 

[Harmonious]

I just found this. It explains the Kallah.

"The complete Talmud contains 63 books in 524 chapters.
Added to these are four other shorts tracts, which have not been included
in the regular Talmud. They have been added by later writers and exponents.
These four are:
MASSEKHETH SOPHERIM - the Tract of Scribes. Treats of the mode of
writing the books of the law. Has 21 chapters.
EBHEL RABBETI - a large treatise on Mourning. Has 14 chapters.
KALLAH - the Bride. On the acquisition of the bride. Has one chapter.
MASSEKHETH DEREKH ERETS - the Conduct of Lide. Divided into
RABBAH - major parts, and ZUTA - the minor parts. Has 16 chapters. At the
end is added a special chapter - PEREK SCHALOM - on Peace."
* * *​

Wherever you found this is ALSO made from whole cloth.

THIS is the truth of the matter:
B=Talmud Bavli (36 tractates)
Y=Talmud Yerushalmi (39 tractates)
Numbers indicate amount of Chapters in each Tractate.

I SEDER ZERAIM

1 Berakhot BY 9

2 Peah Y 8

3 Demai Y 7

4 Kilaim Y 9

5 Sheviit Y 10

6 Terumot Y 11

7 Ma'asrot Y 5

8 Ma'aser Sheini Y 5

9 Hallah Y 4

10 Orlah Y 3

11 Bikkurim Y4

II SEDER MOED

12 Shabbat BY 24

13 Eruvin BY 10

14 Pesachim BY 10

15 Shekalim Y 8

16 Yoma BY 8

17Sukkah BY 5

18 Beitzah BY 5

19 Rosh Hashanah BY 4

20 Ta'anint BY 4

21 Megillah BY 4

22 Moed Katan BY 3

23 Hagigah BY 3

III SEDER NASHIM

24 Yevamot BY 16

25 Ketubot BY 13

26 Nedarim BY 11

27 Nazir BY 9

28 Sotah BY 9

29 Gittin BY 9

30 Kiddushin BY 4

IV SEDER NEZIKIN

31 Bava Kamma BY 10

32 Bava Metzia BY 10

33 Bava Batra BY 10

34 Sanhedrin BY 11

35 Makkot BY 3

36 Shevuot BY 8

37 Edutoyot 8

38 Avodah Zarah BY 5

39 Avot 5 (6)*

40 Horayot BY 3

V SEDER KODASHIM

41 Zevahim B 14

42 Menahot B 13

43 Hullin B 12

44 Bekhorot B 9

45 Arakhin B 9

46 Terumah B 7

47 Keritot B 6

48 Me'ilah B 6

49 Tamid 6(7)**

50 Middot 5

51 Kinnim 3

VI SEDER TOHOROT

52 Keilim 30

53 Oholot 18

54 Negaim 14

55 Parah 12

56 Tohorot 10

57 Mikvaot 10

58 Niddah BY 10

59 Makshirin 6

60 Zavim 5

61 Tevul Yom 4

62 Yadaim 4

63 Uktzin 3

*The sixth chapter of Pirkei Avot was added later.
**The sixth and seventh chapter of Tamid were originally counted as one chapter.

I found this listing here.

 

[Vile Atheist]

I wonder if you believe Jews would use the blood of Christian babies to bake matzah.

But it adds so much flavour

 

[Harmonious]

But it adds so much flavour

I wouldn't know.

 

[othman.yaccob]

Too bad if you think people who want to convince you in their religion is not good and not helping someone. you're like frog under coconut shell. Convince is ok but force is bad. it's up to you to decide what is good for your life. Religious is a way to gain spiritual harmony. How many people in this world commit suicide because unstable emotion. The cure is religion.

 

[McBell]

Too bad if you think people who want to convince you in their religion is not good and not helping someone. you're like frog under coconut shell. Convince is ok but force is bad. it's up to you to decide what is good for your life. Religious is a way to gain spiritual harmony. How many people in this world commit suicide because unstable emotion. The cure is religion.

Except for those who committed suicide BECAUSE of religion...

 

[waitasec]

Too bad if you think people who want to convince you in their religion is not good and not helping someone. you're like frog under coconut shell. Convince is ok but force is bad. it's up to you to decide what is good for your life. Religious is a way to gain spiritual harmony. How many people in this world commit suicide because unstable emotion. The cure is religion.

see i have a real big problem with the word convince especially when it has to do with religious faith...
the truth needs no convincing...only subjective truth needs to be convincing
and why would i want that?

 

[Harmonious]

Too bad if you think people who want to convince you in their religion is not good and not helping someone. you're like frog under coconut shell. Convince is ok but force is bad. it's up to you to decide what is good for your life. Religious is a way to gain spiritual harmony. How many people in this world commit suicide because unstable emotion. The cure is religion.

Unfortunately, I have heard that people who didn't live up to their parent's religious ideals or have - for some reason or another - not felt "up to standards" commit suicide, or abandon religion.

I agree that these people were probably reacting to the people, and not to the religion, but if someone is feeling persecuted because of religion, religion is NOT the cure, but the problem.

I'm not currently stating my opinion about proselyzation for now.

 

[McBell]

I agree that these people were probably reacting to the people, and not to the religion, but if someone is feeling persecuted because of religion, religion is NOT the cure, but the problem.

Or they were reacting to the persons religion...
Merely laying claims to a label does not mean the label applies.

 

[Harmonious]

Or they were reacting to the persons religion...
Merely laying claims to a label does not mean the label applies.

This is sometimes also true.

 

[Kathryn]

Good grief! If there is a prayer offered which is a sort of general prayer to a higher power, in a public place, this isn't good enough, isn't tolerant enough, for atheists to bear for 30 seconds?

Honestly, I think that's ridiculous. As I've said repeatedly, tolerance goes both ways.

 

[McBell]

Good grief! If there is a prayer offered which is a sort of general prayer to a higher power, in a public place, this isn't good enough, isn't tolerant enough, for atheists to bear for 30 seconds?

Honestly, I think that's ridiculous. As I've said repeatedly, tolerance goes both ways.

I agree.
I mean the whole "it is only 30 seconds" argument would also go both ways, right?

If it is only thirty seconds, why not offer a moment of silence that lasts 60 seconds?
Then each person can say their own prayer, if applicable.

Though I have to wonder how many of the prayers are more along the lines "Hurry this thing along"...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Good grief! If there is a prayer offered which is a sort of general prayer to a higher power, in a public place, this isn't good enough, isn't tolerant enough, for atheists to bear for 30 seconds?

Honestly, I think that's ridiculous. As I've said repeatedly, tolerance goes both ways.

OTOH, if prayer is such a minor matter, then what would be the big deal in simply letting those who want to pray pray on their own without any official prompting?

It's not like anyone's even calling for a ban on prayer at public events. Your approach creates an imposition on others; you say that the imposition is minor. However, my approach doesn't impose on anyone at all.

 

[ChristineES]

Good grief! If there is a prayer offered which is a sort of general prayer to a higher power, in a public place, this isn't good enough, isn't tolerant enough, for atheists to bear for 30 seconds?

Honestly, I think that's ridiculous. As I've said repeatedly, tolerance goes both ways.

I agree with you. They want to be tolerated by us, but they don't seem to want to tolerate us. It may not be that way, but that is they way it is beginning to appear.
I starting to see it as the "it has to be my way, or I am offended" mentality.

 

[lunamoth]

I like the moment of silence approach to this. When it comes to prayer, silence is often more powerful than words.