Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Poisonshady313]

I was only repeating what was said to me (what was quoted)- I didn't really mean what I said (you could tell that if you looked). Why is rotten only for me to say it?

There's a world of difference between saying a quick prayer somewhere between arriving at a public event and sitting down in your seat, and having everyone there, ready to get things started, and then sending off those who don't want to partake in prayer into the parking lot.

It takes a lot of nerve to single out people this way when praying is something you can do anywhere... it does NOT have to be over a microphone at an event where those assembled are not all of the same faith.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Christine does not deserve this diatribe. She used that example in response to someone else using the reverse example to her. Chill. :cold:

It's not at all the same. Offering a quick prayer before you go into an event (perfectly reasonable) is entirely different from telling people already there, ready to begin the proceedings "By the way, We're going to pray now. You can either join us, deal with it, or go away for a few while we do our thing" (entirely unacceptable).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And what the heck is wrong with a moment of silence? It doesn't infringe on anyone's rights. You don't even HAVE to pray in that silence. What is wrong with a compromise? No one wants to meet half way.

It's already meeting halfway to allow individual prayer but not official prayer.

We can't always have our way. If most of the people there don't want prayer, then I would not really expect it to happen. But if most of the people do want it, then why is it called a mob rule? If it is a mob rule, why is not having a moment of silence not considered mob rule, too?

I know you said you didn't want an answer, but here's the best analogy I can come up with to hopefully illustrate how I feel about this:

Imagine that most people at an event were proud, white Southerners. Would it be appropriate to display a Confederate flag on the stage if most of the people there liked the idea? Would it be appropriate to get rid of the flag and instead set aside a few minutes in the schedule where people could either choose to sing "Dixie" or twiddle their thumbs?

Would it be "mob rule" to suggest that neither the flag nor the break in the schedule were appropriate at an event that's supposed to be inclusive of everyone present?

I don't really need or even want an answer. I am trying to be reasonable and to think of compromises. I just can't understand any of it. I spent my whole life trying to make compromises so everyone can be happy. But it seems that everyone just wants everything to go their own way and to heck with what anyone else wants. I thought we all had rights, theists and atheists.
I am done with this debate. I am going around in circles.
See you guys in the next debate.

My issue is that I've suggested an option that I think is already fair, reasonable, and acknowledges the rights of everyone involved... yet it's apparently still not good enough.

It's frustrating and discouraging. On an ethical level, I still think that freedom of belief and expression are both important, but on an emotional level, I feel like it's almost pointless to try to be accommodating.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I suppose we just have to decide who is going to excluded, because someone will be excluded either way.

I wouldn't worry about what people are thinking about in that moment of silence. If they think of the devil, that is their choice. If they think about what they want for dinner, that is their choice. If they think about how stupid any of this is, that is their choice. If they think of God, then that is their choice. And I was only speaking of graduation ceremonies, anyway, not of sporting events or anything else. That would be a whole different discussion for me.

Graduations, sporting events, sessions of congress... it's all the same beast. A public event at which it would be unthinkable to expect or even to ask people to leave the room for a few minutes while you have church time.

9-10ths_Penguin already pointed out just a few examples of how impractical that would be. But even if it were doable with the greatest of ease, it's still incredibly rude to expect them or ask them to leave so you can do something you could easily do anywhere on your own time.

 

[lunamoth]

It's not at all the same. Offering a quick prayer before you go into an event (perfectly reasonable) is entirely different from telling people already there, ready to begin the proceedings "By the way, We're going to pray now. You can either join us, deal with it, or go away for a few while we do our thing" (entirely unacceptable).

We are discussing a moment of silence instead of prayer. I think it would defeat the purpose if someone said "we're going to pray now."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We are discussing a moment of silence instead of prayer.

A distinction without difference. In this context, a moment of silence is a hole in the schedule for prayer.

I think it would defeat the purpose if someone said "we're going to pray now."

It probably would, since the purpose is to accommodate prayer while not saying the word "prayer".

 

[lunamoth]

A distinction without difference. In this context, a moment of silence is a hole in the schedule for prayer.

It probably would, since the purpose is to accommodate prayer while not saying the word "prayer".

Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

 

[Poisonshady313]

We are discussing a moment of silence instead of prayer. I think it would defeat the purpose if someone said "we're going to pray now."

Both you and Christine mentioned that Christine's post was in response to an example posted by another poster.

Could anyone explain to me why it would be unreasonable to have a public event without a prayer or a moment of silence? I mean, if you really do feel the need to pray before it starts, nobody's stopping you from praying in your car in the parking lot before you come in. Heck - nobody's stopping you from praying in your seat before the event starts, or even from praying silently through the whole event if you want.

This example isn't dealing with a moment of silence only. In fact, I see the word "pray" more frequently than I see the word "silence".

Either the example being quoted is relevant, or it isn't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

No, the reasonable compromise is "pray if and how you want, but we're not going to stop the event for it."

 

[Poisonshady313]

Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

I think what penguin is saying is that it's not a reasonable compromise. You taking everyone else's time out of the regularly scheduled proceedings to pray, whether out loud or silently, is time that Penguin doesn't want to give up to accommodate prayer.

People who are inclined to pray are perfectly capable of doing so on their own time, and without a microphone.

 

[lunamoth]

Doing nothing, eliminating the benediction, not providing a time for reflection or prayer, is not a compromise. :sarcastic

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This example isn't dealing with a moment of silence only. In fact, I see the word "pray" more frequently than I see the word "silence".

Either the example being quoted is relevant, or it isn't.

I just wish someone who's arguing for officially sanctioned prayer would answer my question.

This sort of behaviour creates an imposition on me, so I'd like to know why it's necessary. So far, the only answer I've received is, effectively, "there's more of us than there are of you, so what we say goes."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Doing nothing, eliminating the benediction, not providing a time for reflection or prayer, is not a compromise. :sarcastic

It is if people are still free to pray individually if they so choose.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Imagine for a moment that I walked into your church just before your Sunday morning service was about to begin. I walk right down the isle, step up to the podium, and launch into a 5 minute sermon about Jesus being a false prophet, a sinner, and a deceiver of men.

And if you complained, I told you "If you don't want to hear it, you can just wait in the parking lot. I have a right to free speech. Why don't you just think about something else while I say what I have to say."

Tell me you think that asking you to step outside is a reasonable compromise.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Doing nothing, eliminating the benediction, not providing a time for reflection or prayer, is not a compromise. :sarcastic

Actually, it is. Because there's nothing stopping you from praying without either a moment of silence or a microphone.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I just wish someone who's arguing for officially sanctioned prayer would answer my question.

This sort of behaviour creates an imposition on me, so I'd like to know why it's necessary. So far, the only answer I've received is, effectively, "there's more of us than there are of you, so what we say goes."

That's why my response to Christine was so angry. They don't get how rude it is. They figure telling them not to have an officially sanctioned prayer infringes on their "free exercise thereof".

 

[lunamoth]

It is if people are still free to pray individually if they so choose.

No, it is eliminating part of the graduation ceremony. Of course people can pray any time they want. The question is not about that. It is about the significance and acceptability of prayer or a moment of silence for reflection as part of the graduation ceremony. You asked why someone might want it included, so I answered.

 

[lunamoth]

Imagine for a moment that I walked into your church just before your Sunday morning service was about to begin. I walk right down the isle, step up to the podium, and launch into a 5 minute sermon about Jesus being a false prophet, a sinner, and a deceiver of men.

And if you complained, I told you "If you don't want to hear it, you can just wait in the parking lot. I have a right to free speech. Why don't you just think about something else while I say what I have to say."

Tell me you think that asking you to step outside is a reasonable compromise.

Well, yeah, that would be totally inappropriate. Why would you do that?

We are talking about a moment of silence to replace the traditional benediction at graduation ceremonies. I agree with Christine that sporting events and other public events are different, and I really have no idea why they pray at car races. Maybe for protection of the drivers? At meetings of Congress prayer probably is also tradition, but it certainly does not impact me, so I guess it's up to the members of Congress what they want to do about that.

 

[lunamoth]

Actually, it is. Because there's nothing stopping you from praying without either a moment of silence or a microphone.

No, that's not a compromise. That is eliminating the observance altogether. Many people pray all of the time. This is about acknowledging a time, yes, in place of spoken prayer, to acknowledge the significance of the event. Eliminating that is not a compromise.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, it is eliminating part of the graduation ceremony. Of course people can pray any time they want. The question is not about that.

It's entirely about that, IMO. I do agree with the idea of reasonable accommodation for religion, but no special accommodation is warranted for something that needs no accommodation.

It is about the significance and acceptability of prayer or a moment of silence for reflection as part of the graduation ceremony.

It's also about the necessity of sanctioned prayer in this context. You're creating an imposition for others, so it requires some sort of justification.

You asked why someone might want it included, so I answered.

And here's my opinion: the significance of prayer varies from person to person. To some people, it's very important; to others, it's not important at all. Therefore, it's not normally something that is of common importance to all people at a public event. Things that are not of common importance should not be included in the official program, especially if they have nothing to do with the purpose of the event.