Do you support the death penalty?

[Smart_Guy]

But surely if you think that it is in some cases necessary you should be willing to do it yourself, rather than simply expecting others to do it for you? Even if, in practice, there's no reason you'd need to do it.

Nope, doing it this way will create chaos and many people will come out wanting to take their justice them selves. If there is a law, one should refer to the law and see what it has to offer, and this is mentioned in the Quran. Applying the law should be done in a regulated and measured manner by those in charge. It would be done for the community, not me as a single person. If it is done for me, in a case concerning my right as an individual, I would first consider forgiving the culprit if I see they desert it instead of letting them executed. May death sentences are actually dropped like this in Islam. If I can't forgive, then I should let the authorities take care of it.

The only way I would (or willing to, as you asked) do anything to an offender is if I had no choice, like in protecting myself, my family or those instantly needing my help, and even then, it would be with priorities in reaching safety, not killing.

 

[Kirran]

Nope, doing it this way will create chaos and many people will come out wanting to take their justice them selves. If there is a law, one should refer to the law and see what it has to offer, and this is mentioned in the Quran. Applying the law should be done in a regulated and measured manner by those in charge. It would be done for the community, not me as a single person. If it is done for me, in a case concerning my right as an individual, I would first consider forgiving the culprit if I see they desert it instead of letting them executed. May death sentences are actually dropped like this in Islam. If I can't forgive, then I should let the authorities take care of it.

The only way I would (or willing to, as you asked) do anything to an offender is if I had no choice, like in protecting myself, my family or those instantly needing my help, and even then, it would be with priorities in reaching safety, not killing.

I was unclear - I mean what if the authorities say 'OK, we've decided this person needs to be killed and Abdu you have to do it for us.'

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Continuing from another thread. Do you support the death penalty and if you do, what crimes should be punished with death?

I don't, mainly because criminal justice systems aren't perfect and mistakes are made.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I was unclear - I mean what if the authorities say 'OK, we've decided this person needs to be killed and Abdu you have to do it for us.'

I would refuse, unless I'm the best choice for it, which I won't be since there is an authority already (as the question implies), which means there is enough power to do it. But if I know I can't do it right, I would refuse it anyways and suggest finding another punishment than the execution. Execution, for example, has to be done with a very sharp sword that cuts thru the neck like butter which could inflect absolutely no pain since the spinal cord won't have the chance to deliver the pulses. If I can't do that, along with other factors, I would refuse by all means.

The authority should not ask this of anyone anyways, unless they are the executioner working for them, which I won't. If they do, they would encourage the bystanders to take retribution themselves. This would really create chaos.

 

[Kirran]

I would refuse, unless I'm the best choice for it, which I won't be since there is an authority already (as the question implies), which means there is enough power to do it. But if I know I can't do it right, I would refuse it anyways and suggest finding another punishment than the execution. Execution, for example, has to be done with a very sharp sword that cuts thru the neck like butter which could inflect absolutely no pain since the spinal cord won't have the chance to deliver the pulses. If I can't do that, along with other factors, I would refuse by all means.

The authority should not ask this of anyone anyways, unless they are the executioner working for them, which I won't. If they do, they would encourage the bystanders to take retribution themselves. This would really create chaos.

Well I think that if you wouldn't be willing to be the executioner, you have no business advocating execution. Although what you are saying does have a little more subtlety to it, I acknowledge.

On the slicing through the neck - would that include the spinal cord, or would it be like halal butchery methods? I'm not familiar with this area.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

How are the family of the offender victims, and what kind of victims are they?

http://mtabolitionco.org/issues/secondary-trauma/
Executions Create New Victims
Executions also create a new generation of murder victims in the families of the condemned. Families of condemned death row inmates must face “a prolonged period of anticipatory grieving” and must live with the shame that their family members “have been formally . . . judged unworthy to live."

Robert Meeropol, whose parents, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg, were executed in 1953 when he was six years old, was anxious and confused on the night of his parent’s execution. He says he only survived because of a supportive community.

When Bill Babbitt realized his brother Manny, a veteran, had taken the life of an elderly woman, he turned Manny over to authorities. He was told that Manny, who was seriously mentally ill, would get the help he needed. Instead, Manny was executed and Bill, his elderly mother, and the rest of his family became yet another set of victims"

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Problem is, it is not that black and white a difference.
What some consider justice, others consider revenge.
I have often heard that justice is nothing more than acceptable revenge.
I have never heard an argument that actually refutes it.
They have all merely minimized the revenge until they felt comfortable calling it justice.

OASN:
Where do you draw the line?
Your above "reasoning" can be used to justify the not ever doing a thing to anyone.

The only concern I would have about being executioner is , creating a new generation of murder victims excluding the defendant.
Incarceration is where we in the UK draw the line ,life .
They get everyday to think about it . A life sentence that means life . Incarceration is justifiable where as punishing offenders family more than nessesary is revenge like punishment . Is not always mums fault if her son becomes a murderer .
I live in country without death penalty is unlikely we can agree .

 

[Smart_Guy]

Well I think that if you wouldn't be willing to be the executioner, you have no business advocating execution. Although what you are saying does have a little more subtlety to it, I acknowledge.

Hmm... I can't see how. I don't agree with execution so I can exact revenge, I agree with it so the same level of equal punishment goes to the criminal and to protect the community. Agreeing with something does not necessarily mean okay with doing it myself. I mean, I don't want to assemble a whole car myself even tho I agree it's a good thing for me.

But at any rate, I don't want to do it and I support it. Those are facts. No need to try to conclude something else from what I say, you know

On the slicing through the neck - would that include the spinal cord, or would it be like halal butchery methods? I'm not familiar with this area.

It would be from the back of the neck, which is the shortest layer of skin to the spine then the spinal cord. The spinal cord goes in the middle of the spine. The hit must be as fast as possible disconnecting the head off the body in an eye blink. I know this is harsh, but I don't believe there is a faster and less pain execution method than this.

http://mtabolitionco.org/issues/secondary-trauma/
Executions Create New Victims
Executions also create a new generation of murder victims in the families of the condemned. Families of condemned death row inmates must face “a prolonged period of anticipatory grieving” and must live with the shame that their family members “have been formally . . . judged unworthy to live."

Robert Meeropol, whose parents, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg, were executed in 1953 when he was six years old, was anxious and confused on the night of his parent’s execution. He says he only survived because of a supportive community.

When Bill Babbitt realized his brother Manny, a veteran, had taken the life of an elderly woman, he turned Manny over to authorities. He was told that Manny, who was seriously mentally ill, would get the help he needed. Instead, Manny was executed and Bill, his elderly mother, and the rest of his family became yet another set of victims"

A community is like a human body, all parts are connected to each other supporting each other. If one part gets hurt, all other parts the pain for that hurt part.

Muslim communities have other factors that render rightful execution no long lasting trouble to the family of the convict. Sin of the fathers should not go down to the children. Dunno about non Muslim communities.

Also, if a family considers the execution of their family member a shame bigger than the shame of being a cold blooded murderer or a brutal child sexual rapist, then there is something wrong with the family or even the community that family lives in.

 

[Kirran]

Hmm... I can't see how. I don't agree with execution so I can exact revenge, I agree with it so the same level of equal punishment goes to the criminal and to protect the community. Agreeing with something does not necessarily mean okay with doing it myself. I mean, I don't want to assemble a whole car myself even tho I agree it's a good thing for me.

But at any rate, I don't want to do it and I support it. Those are facts. No need to try to conclude something else from what I say, you know

Well, I find this rather strange, but fair enough, that's what it is.

It would be from the back of the neck, which is the shortest layer of skin to the spine then the spinal cord. The spinal cord goes in the middle of the spine. The hit must be as fast as possible disconnecting the head off the body in an eye blink. I know this is harsh, but I don't believe there is a faster and less pain execution method than this.

With the possible exception of some recent methods, I suspect you're right. If only halal butchery methods used the same methodology.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Hmm... I can't see how. I don't agree with execution so I can exact revenge, I agree with it so the same level of equal punishment goes to the criminal and to protect the community. Agreeing with something does not necessarily mean okay with doing it myself. I mean, I don't want to assemble a whole car myself even tho I agree it's a good thing for me.

But at any rate, I don't want to do it and I support it. Those are facts. No need to try to conclude something else from what I say, you know



It would be from the back of the neck, which is the shortest layer of skin to the spine then the spinal cord. The spinal cord goes in the middle of the spine. The hit must be as fast as possible disconnecting the head off the body in an eye blink. I know this is harsh, but I don't believe there is a faster and less pain execution method than this.



A community is like a human body, all parts are connected to each other supporting each other. If one part gets hurt, all other parts the pain for that hurt part.

Muslim communities have other factors that render rightful execution no long lasting trouble to the family of the convict. Sin of the fathers should not go down to the children. Dunno about non Muslim communities.

Also, if a family considers the execution of their family member a shame bigger than the shame of being a cold blooded murderer or a brutal child sexual rapist, then there is something wrong with the family or even the community that family lives in.

Is OK America not called wild west for nothing is a gun country . Other country with death penalty fall in the under developed world , poor education ,human rights fascist government s etc are a minority of countries . China has death penalty , few human rights .
The regimes of countries with death penalty can be described as oppressive from the freedom of my lazy boy .

 

[Smart_Guy]

Well, I find this rather strange, but fair enough, that's what it is.

Sorry

With the possible exception of some recent methods, I suspect you're right. If only halal butchery methods used the same methodology.

I don't know the pain level of halal slaughtering, but I know that it is the way it is because if the spinal cord is disconnected, the brain with stop giving the body signals to spill the blood out of the body. If the blood is not spilled out of the body, the meat could spoil or collect diseases because of the blood staying inside. But that's another subject.

Is OK America not called wild west for nothing is a gun country . Other country with death penalty fall in the under developed world , poor education ,human rights fascist government s etc are a minority of countries . China has death penalty , few human rights .
The regimes of countries with death penalty can be described as oppressive from the freedom of my lazy boy .

Yes, I understand you point of view. Thank you for sharing it with us.

 

[Kirran]

I don't know the pain level of halal slaughtering, but I know that it is the way it is because if the spinal cord is disconnected, the brain with stop giving the body signals to spill the blood out of the body. If the blood is not spilled out of the body, the meat could spoil or collect diseases because of the blood staying inside. But that's another subject.

If we may briefly digress - so it's about saving the quality of the meat, rather than the suffering of the animal? OK, that makes more sense than other proponents, actually!

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Sorry


I don't know the pain level of halal slaughtering, but I know that it is the way it is because if the spinal cord is disconnected, the brain with stop giving the body signals to spill the blood out of the body. If the blood is not spilled out of the body, the meat could spoil or collect diseases because of the blood staying inside. But that's another subject.



Yes, I understand you point of view. Thank you for sharing it with us.

I think our lawmakers looked at the commandment
"Thou shalt not kill " and applied to the crimal justice system. ;-)

 

[Kirran]

I think our lawmakers looked at the commandment
"Thou shalt not kill " and applied to the crimal justice system. ;-)

I saw a C of E bishop make an impassioned argument against the death penalty on these grounds, among others, and it made a lot of sense to me.

Of course, the ten commandments aren't in the Qur'an as far as I know, although I am sure there are various ayats which are against killing.

 

[Smart_Guy]

If we may briefly digress - so it's about saving the quality of the meat, rather than the suffering of the animal? OK, that makes more sense than other proponents, actually!

I'm not sure really. All I know is that's part of it. Who knows, maybe halal butchering also does not cause serious pain tho the animal since the blood is not feeding the brain properly. Or maybe it does, dunno.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I think our lawmakers looked at the commandment
"Thou shalt not kill " and applied to the crimal justice system. ;-)

I saw a C of E bishop make an impassioned argument against the death penalty on these grounds, among others, and it made a lot of sense to me.

Of course, the ten commandments aren't in the Qur'an as far as I know, although I am sure there are various ayats which are against killing.

You guys are confusing the forbidden killing with executions again; murder vs. necessity. Even Christianity and Judaism allow killing for necessity.

 

[Kirran]

I'm not sure really. All I know is that's part of it. Who knows, maybe halal butchering also does not cause serious pain tho the animal since the blood is not feeding the brain properly. Or maybe it does, dunno.

Scientific evidence is that it does in fact cause serious pain, and there is controversy among Muslim scholars as to whether prior stunning is permissible. In the UK, 80-90% of halal meat is from pre-stunned animals, in which case pain is not caused, but some scholars say that's not OK.

You guys are confusing the forbidden killing with executions again; murder vs. necessity. Even Christianity and Judaism allow killing for necessity.

See at about 12 minutes in -

 

[Smart_Guy]

Scientific evidence is that it does in fact cause serious pain, and there is controversy among Muslim scholars as to whether prior stunning is permissible. In the UK, 80-90% of halal meat is from pre-stunned animals, in which case pain is not caused, but some scholars say that's not OK.

Well, for what reason are they saying it is not okay? I don't see it not okay unless stunning hurts more than slaughtering. I have more to say, but I don't wanna get off-topic.

See at about 12 minutes in -

Yes, more opinions of more parties, just like the ones you and I are having. Thanks for sharing

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

You guys are confusing the forbidden killing with executions again; murder vs. necessity. Even Christianity and Judaism allow killing for necessity.

I will not press matters , not that you can make change is out of your control.
Not confused , we now discussing applications of law , now if the law cannot follow the law is not justice.
My country used to burn people at the stake , hung drawn and quartered , is no more barbaric than that, but now is 2016 you know .
I won't push it no more have good day smart guy

 

[Smart_Guy]

I will not press matters , not that you can make change is out of your control.
Not confused , we now discussing applications of law , now if the law cannot follow the law is not justice.
My country used to burn people at the stake , hung drawn and quartered , is no more barbaric than that, but now is 2016 you know .
I won't push it no more have good day smart guy

There is no pushing or anything, we're just sharing beliefs.