Do you think any one faith is the only 'way'?

[Vouthon]

A fascinating topic for discussion.

Before I comment, I would like reactions to something that the retired pontiff Benedict XVI said back in 1997 when he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Given his role back then, his comments are naturally important in the Catholic context.

I think that his words could provide fuel for further debate/discussion since it provides the view of an orthodox Christian theologian & church prelate who was head of the doctrinal body of his religion and then its leader for eight years:

"...Interviewer

How many ways are there to God?

Pope Benedict XVI

As many ways as there are people. For even within the same faith each man's way is an entirely personal one. In that respect there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ. But this does not mean that all ways are identical in terms of conciousness and will but on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man...Unity of mankind, unity of religions, unity of Christians - we ought to search for these unities again, so that a more positive epoch may really begin...In all religions there are men of interior purity who through their [beliefs] somehow touch the great mystery and find the right way of being human...The dialogue with other religions is under way. We are, I think, all convinced that we can learn something, for example, from the mysticism of Asia and that precisely the great mystical traditions also open possibilities of encounter that are not so clearly present in positive theology...The Christian can also find the secret working of God behind them. Through the other religions God touches man and brings him onto the path. But it is always the same God, the God of Jesus Christ...It is definitely possible for someone to receive from his religion directives that help him become a pure person, which also, if we want to use the word, help him [...] reach salvation. This undoubtedly happens on a large scale..."

- Pope Benedict XVI, Salt of the Earth, 1997 (when he was Cardinal Ratzinger Head of Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith)

 

[Vinayaka]

"As many ways as there are people"
"in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ"

I see contradiction, but then again maybe that's just me.

 

[SageTree]

"As many ways as there are people"
"in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ"

I see contradiction, but then again maybe that's just me.

I'm not sure what your affiliations are w/in Hinduism, and I'm not picking this verse as to be presumptuous.
This is merely a verse that has much meaning to me.

It sort of sounds like Krishna's words in Ch 9 v.23 about all worship coming back to Him.

I doubt it's probable that Benedict meant a 'Christ-like-consciousness', but to me it seems like an insinuation that all people on all paths worship the same Light that Christians find in Christ.

That seems to make a taaaad more sense, do you think?

 

[Ashoka]

Do you personally think (even though many religions say that it is the only way) believe that your particular faith is the only true faith? Or do you think that it (whether it is a supreme God, or something else) judges by the nature of every individual? Or do you have some other opinion regarding other faiths legitimacy? I personally do not believe any one faith is the only 'True' religion. Your opinions?

Namaste,

I don't believe in a "one true faith." I do think some paths are better than others, but that is only my opinion. Naturally, as someone who practices Hinduism, I think that it is closest to what I believe about the universe and God. So that is the path I choose to follow. But, I don't think religions are one size fits all. If that were so, there would only be one religion.

Shivoham.

 

[Windwalker]

That seems amazing the Pope said this. It follows suit for them to say we follow the same God as them. Is this a message the Church really embraces?

 

[SageTree]

That seems amazing the Pope said this. It follows suit for them to say we follow the same God as them. Is this a message the Church really embraces?

You mean THE Church, or Christianity and all it's forms and facets?

I'm not a Catholic, I can't speak for THE Church.

I can only speak for my own.

 

[Vouthon]

"As many ways as there are people"
"in some sense also on the way to Jesus Christ"

I see contradiction, but then again maybe that's just me.

Precisely. Is there a contradiction between the two statements? On the face of it there seems to be both pluralism and exclusivity. There are as many ways to God as there is people, yet there all on the way to Jesus Christ.

If one were to put it into Islamic terms, the famous Sufi adage goes: "There are as many paths to God as breaths in a man". Yet Muhammad is held to be the "seal of the prophets" and his religion the last manifestation of primordial true faith that presents the straight path to God. Is this too contradictory?

What I think Benedict was saying is that there is one source but many mediations to that source. As a Christian he identifies that source as the "God of Jesus Christ" that is the Christian Triune God or Trinity. In Catholic theology, salvation comes through the Christ but this does not prevent a participated mediation through another religion because Jesus is considered by us to be the Logos, or reasoning principle of the universe, incarnate. He, or "it", existed from all eternity before his incarnation in time and is still universally present in every heart.

The Logos is present within the conscience of every person, of every rational creature. His Spirit, the Holy Spirit, is also universally present throughout the world enlightening everyone equally. The spirit's presence touches religions, cultures and individuals. There are seeds of this spirit in every religion which represents a common soteriological unity among religions. No religion can claim it solely as their own, nor can any person. And given that we are all, in Christian understanding, made in the image of God all human beings are one in their humanity too. Every religious experience is a human experience. We are not human beings have a spiritual experience but spiritual beings sharing in a human experience. Every human being has the same body make-up, we breathe the same air, inhabit the same earth and have one, common human nature. Therefore we often ask the same questions about life because ultimately we all, at the basic level, want and need the same things. Everyone who has a sincere search for truth may take a different path and find different answers, however in the end we are fulfilling some basic instinct within us which is naturally oriented towards the transcendent, God or whatever one wishes to call "it". Religions may in doctrine and institutional structure, however there is a common basic need in human nature which religion, in whatever form, fulfils and at this most basic level one can find unity.

To faithfully the revealed truths in one's own religion and through them abide by the voice of one's conscience, is to participate in the Logos whom Christians believe incarnated in Christ.

Each individual path is seen as being a different expression of the one Way, "mini-ways" if you like (to oversimplify) in their own rights, mediations that participate in one source - yet that source in dogmatic terms will differ according to the religious perspective of the person and his 'mini-way'. To a Muslim it is most definitely Allah with reference to Muhammad as his final Prophet. To a Christian it is always the Most Blessed Trinity through the humanity of Jesus, to a Buddhist perhaps it could be seen simply as the experience of Nibbana and so forth.

Everyone can through their own mini-ways drink from the same fount, however they will identify the Source according to the language, symbols, doctrines and teachings of their religion.

I think that such a view is interesting because it is neither strictly pluralist nor exclusivist.

On the experiential level I, as a Catholic believing in a similar framework to Benedict, would recognise that your experience of God or the Absolute is just as valid as mine and is essentially the same as what I have experienced. However I will interpret it always with reference to the Christian conception of God, while recognising that your path has taken you to the same Truth, yet interpreted through a different lens.

Everyone is therefore on the same Way however they have different perceptions of what the "Source" is and the path to it (ie through Jesus, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Five Pillars of Islamic belief).

On the experiential level beyond and above dogma, they are partaking in one , common mystery and can recognise it in others even though they interpret it differently on the doctrinal level.

I should also add that no religion has fully comprehended everything about God. We all have not comprehended, individually nor as a corporate religious body, nor ever could comprehend, the divine fully. And therefore we are all united in our awesome unknowing before the majesty of the inexpressible God and can recognise elements of truth in all religions pointing towards that fullness of truth revealed in the Source, a source the Christian while identify with the Logos incarnate in Christ and a Muslim with Allah, yet which is the patrimony of no person or sole group but transcends every religion and narrow limitation. God is "absolute mystery, incomprehensibly intelligible and named without names.” Hence, no religion is absolute in the sense that it could claim to have comprehended the Divine fully. Every religion has revelation and hence each religion has to be understood in relation with the others.

 

[Vouthon]

That seems amazing the Pope said this. It follows suit for them to say we follow the same God as them. Is this a message the Church really embraces?

Yes. Everyone participates in the one Supreme Reality and worships the same Supreme Being. Understandings may differ, that is consciousness, however the reality is one. God according to our theologians is the "coincidence of opposites".

To quote the pope before Benedict:

"...Every quest of the human spirit for truth and goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The various religions arose precisely from this primordial human openness to God. At their origins we often find founders who, with the help of God's Spirit, achieved a deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions. In every authentic religious experience, the most characteristic expression is prayer. Because of the human spirit's constitutive openness to God's action of urging it to self-transcendence, we can hold that "every authentic prayer is called forth by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person". We experienced an eloquent manifestation of this truth at the World Day of Prayer for Peace on 27 October 1986 in Assisi, and on other similar occasions of great spiritual intensity. The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. "The Spirit's presence and activity", as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, "affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, General Audience Address, September 16, 1998, Vatican

What JPII says above would be the authentic Catholic understanding of the development of religions from a primordial openness to the one Spirit and an ardent search for truth, aided by revelation from the Spirit.

 

[ratikala]

The Unitarian-Universalist Church put humanistic principles first.
How we got to the principles was secondary, in a way....
Intertwined we'll say.....

"How we got to the principles was secondary, in a way....
Intertwined we'll say....."
I suppose that is true of many traditions ?
and the eternal splting of and forming of sub sects , ...
but here we are , so I suppose the question is how to use it to its best advantage , for the best common benifit

I'm honoured, but I don't know if I can speak for Christianity.
So as usual I'll speak for myself.

in truth what else can a man do , ....

I grew up a United Methodist as you know and journeyed for 12 or so years to this point, learning.

I sort of 'came back' to Christianity, from a more Univeralist perspective, but didn't abandon the perspective,
nor do I just practice Christian method... I suppose I'm a Syncretic of sorts as well.

this idea 'syncretic' could confuse me , but I suppose it is allmost un avoidable these days , every thing is so accessable , we are finding out so much more than even 50 years ago when most people had little choice but to belive in the same tradition as his forefathers , or simply not to beleive , .....there was little to use as comparison .

Go figure.

Mind you, I'm not talking about Christian Universalism. ie. 'All things will be restored'.... (Not that I have a problem with that per se)

But to be clear I'm talking about Universalism as a perspective.

I haven't had a problem bringing the heart of that Universalist language with me into the Christian-tongue.

People seem to understand me just fine.
Some say I speak beautifully.

when it is spoken from experience , spoken from the heart , it is easy to understand and allways beautifull :bow:

I've been heartily welcomed into the Anglican Church of Canada, where ever I've lived.
And never in a skeptical way, always with open arms, and usually thrust into some role in the Church... willingly of course.

nice , ...

I find perennial expression in Christianity.... and the exclusivism doesn't jive with me, that is portrayed in the translation/transmission of it.

that also I find to be an uncomfortable barrier

Granted, I also came back through the Eastern door.... The Mystic/Contemplative Door.
So what I 'see', is highly unique.

as it should be , but if it enriches us as human beings then that which we see may remain our personal contemplation .

Group worship and creeds.... sometimes tough... I see a finger pointing to the moon,
or a threshold to cross, which leads to the cosmos.

for me also the creed is the one part I find difficult , and here true worship is a rare thing , there is a horible tendancy in the british to sing hymns as some kind of obligitory penance and I am listening to hear something sung with love ?

That was a little rambling... so pardon me.
It's on the fly.

huh now I am just rambling , ....

Too true... a side effective of Western converts?
Am sure this isn't the sole cause.... but 'ownership' is a big thing ya know.
(spiritual materialism)

:run:

To a large extent, while I submit to God, as a pilgrim on my journey home....
There are many days I've felt alone on that road home.
But I've certainly had my share of journey with amazing people, like yourself, whom I hold in my heart.

yey , well never forget that we are out here

 

[ratikala]

Advaita Christianity?
Zen Christian?
Christian Yogi? ......monday
Christ-yana? .......tursday
Bhakti Christianity? .....wednsday
Christian Dervish? ....thursday and friday
Christafari? .....saturday :rainbow1:
Christbbalah?
Christ-sattva?.....sunday :namaste
VajraChristianity

What ought I label myself and path?

you know what there arnt enough days in the week !

Hence my signature.
Everyone Breathes.

:namaste
Salaamaste!

nama salam :namaste

 

[Vinayaka]

Precisely. Is there a contradiction between the two statements? On the face of it there seems to be both pluralism and exclusivity. There are as many ways to God as there is people, yet there all on the way to Jesus Christ.

I

But then he also did and said this: apr 09 HINDUS WANT PUBLIC APOLOGY

So I walk with trepidation, and like to see actions that support words. In short, I'm not convinced that the pope or the Catholic church is sincere. Like politicians, there is a lot of political correctness going on. If you really want to make bigger gains in converting Hindus in India, best not to insult them.

As I've said many times on this forum, I personally lean towards the idea of Christ not existing at all. In the old days, that would get me burned at the stake in a Catholic country. These days I could get officially excommunicated if I were a member, but I'm not.

But yes there is a place for all faiths, as someone else eloquently put.

 

[ratikala]

Yes. Everyone participates in the one Supreme Reality and worships the same Supreme Being. Understandings may differ, that is consciousness, however the reality is one.

jai jai :bow:

God according to our theologians is the "coincidence of opposites".

the only portion I am not totaly clear on ? if you could clarify please ?

What JPII says above would be the authentic Catholic understanding of the development of religions from a primordial openness to the one Spirit and an ardent search for truth, aided by revelation from the Spirit.

unexpectedly refressing to hear , thank you for joining the conversation :namaste

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Precisely. Is there a contradiction between the two statements? On the face of it there seems to be both pluralism and exclusivity. There are as many ways to God as there is people, yet there all on the way to Jesus Christ.

There's a line in the movie Full Metal Jacket:

We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every g*** there is an American trying to get out.

The sentiment you express reminds me of that.

 

[Vouthon]

But then he also did and said this:

So I walk with trepidation, and like to see actions that support words. In short, I'm not convinced that the pope or the Catholic church is sincere. Like politicians, there is a lot of political correctness going on. If you really want o make bigger gains in converting Hindus in India, best not to insult them.

As I've said many times on this forum, I personally lean towards the idea of Christ not existing at all. In the old days, that would get me burned at the stake in a Catholic country. These days I could bet officially excommunicated.

But yes there is a place for all faiths, as someone else eloquently put.

Well, the Catholic Church's official view of Hinduism (and we do have one) was outlined by the Second Vatican Council in 1965. Here's the relevant portion:

"...One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.(1) One also is their final goal, God...

Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good...? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness?...What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense..

Religions that are tied up with cultural progress strive to solve these issues with more refined concepts and a more precise language. In Hinduism men explore the divine mystery and express it through an endless bounty of myths and through penetrating philosophical insight. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition, either by way of the ascetic life, profound meditation, or by taking refuge in God with love and trust. The various schools of Buddhism recognize the radical inadequacy of this malleable world and teach a way by which men, with devout and trusting hearts, can become capable either of reaching a state of perfect liberation, or of attaining, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination

Other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men..."

- Nostra Aetate (1965)

I would have given you a link to the document but apparently I can't do so yet until I've wrote 15 posts Type "Nostra Aetate" into google and the primary document will come up on the Vatican website.

I think this demonstrates genuine respect for the spiritual riches of Hinduism and a commitment to dialogue, not underhand conversion attempts which would be immoral.

I am for one glad that we live today in democratic, open societies where people can speak their minds freely.

I have absolutely no problem with someone believing that Christ did not exist - so long as it is in faithful adherence to one's conscience

Following honestly one's conscience is the most important thing for me, respecting everyone's conscience and freedom of conscience.

So more power to you for sticking to your guns.

As to sincerity of popes and so on, I cannot judge. If he meant any offence to Hindu beliefs about God then he was obviously wrong to do so IMHO and I won't shy away from saying that. Things can be taken out of context by reporters, however.

His predecessor had many positive things to say about Hinduism and Indian philosophy ie

"...My thoughts turn immediately to the lands of the East, so rich in religious and philosophical traditions of great antiquity. Among these lands, India has a special place. A great spiritual impulse leads Indian thought to seek an experience which would liberate the spirit from the shackles of time and space and would therefore acquire absolute value. The dynamic of this quest for liberation provides the context for great metaphysical systems..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, FIDES ET RATIO, 1998

"...India has so much to offer to the world in the task of understanding man and the truth of his existence. And what she offers specifically is a noble spiritual vision of man – man, a pilgrim of the Absolute, travelling towards a goal, seeking the face of God. Did not Mahatma Gandhi put it this way: "What I want to achieve – what I have been striving and pining to achieve... is self-realization – to see God face to face. I live and move and have my being in pursuit of this goal...
The figure of Mahatma Gandhi and the meaning of his life’s work have penetrated the consciousness of humanity. In his famous words, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru has expressed the conviction of the whole world: "The light that shone in this country was no ordinary light" . Two days ago marked the thirty-eighth anniversary of his death. He who lived by non-violence appeared to be defeated by violence.
For a brief moment the light seemed to have gone out. Yet his teachings and the example of his life live on in the minds and hearts of millions of men and women. And so it was said: "The light has gone out of our lives and there is darkness everywhere and I do not quite know what to tell you and how to say it... The light has gone out, I said, and yet I was wrong. For the light that shone in this country was no ordinary light. The light that has illumined this country for these many years will illumine this country for many more years..." . Yes, the light is still shining, and the heritage of Mahatma Gandhi speaks to us still. And today as a pilgrim of peace I have come here to pay homage to Mahatma Gandhi, hero of humanity. "

- John Paul II Delhi, February 1986

So on the whole, I would say that the Catholic Church is positive about Hinduism and its contributions to humanity.

 

[Vouthon]

jai jai :bow:


the only portion I am not totaly clear on ? if you could clarify please ?



unexpectedly refressing to hear , thank you for joining the conversation :namaste

Dear Ratikala :bow: (I LOVE that smilie!)

Thank you for your post, I very much appreciate it.

On "coincidence of opposites" apologies for not explaining what I meant by that cryptic phrase.

It means that God surpasses or transcends all (apparent) contradictions. In the infinite realm of God, diversity and multiplicity are one. This can be applied to religions too.

It comes from a fifteenth century Cardinal of my Church called Nicholas of Cusa.

Nicholas of Cusa explained it in a work of mystical literature called "On Learned Ignorance":

His central issue, as discussed in his main work, De Docta Ignorantia (On Learned Ignorance), was the problem of the knowledge of God or of the Absolute Infinite. Nicholas held that the Absolute Infinite cannot be conceived by finite thought. Hence, in theology, only negations can be assumed as true. Although positive theological statements are inevitable in order to think about God, they are inadequate. Paradoxically, one can reach the incomprehensible God only by knowing his incomprehensibility. This is the meaning of the term “learned ignorance.” In the end, both negative and positive theology must be dissolved into inexpressibility; God is ineffable beyond all affirmations and negations. This is the extreme climax of a philosophical theology where the infinite distance between God and the finite has come to a head. More exactly, human beings cannot touch God through knowledge at all, but at the very most only by our yearning for Him.

Nicholas of Cusa calls infinity “absolute,” as it must be understood in a full and unrestrained sense. Hence, the sphere of an independent and self-sufficient finite cannot exist beside it, otherwise infinity itself would actually be finite and restricted. “There cannot be an opposite to the ineffable Infinite,” says Nicholas. “It is also not the whole, to whom a part could be opposed, nor can it be a part… The Infinite is above all that.” (De Visione Dei, VIII[1]) Above all opposites, the Infinite—God—is beyond all multitude as well. Thus, Nicholas calls Him the “Absolute Unity and Oneness,” which is prior to all and includes all. In this sense, he speaks of God as the “coincidence of opposites.” Everything is enveloped in God and developed in the universe... “You, O God, are the antithesis of opposites, because you are infinite; and because you are infinite, you are infinity. In infinity, the antithesis of opposites is without antithesis… Infinity does not tolerate any otherness beside itself; for, as it is infinity, nothing is external to it. The Absolute Infinite includes all and encompasses all.” (De Visione Dei, VIII)

 

[Windwalker]

You mean THE Church, or Christianity and all it's forms and facets?

I'm not a Catholic, I can't speak for THE Church.

I can only speak for my own.

I was speaking to the article that the Pope was speaking for the Church, in which case that means speaking for the Catholic church.

 

[Vinayaka]

So on the whole, I would say that the Catholic Church is positive about Hinduism and its contributions to humanity.

I sincerely wish this were true. Unfortunately, on the ground in India it is another matter
altogether. Sites like this one http://unethicalconversionwatch.org/tag/india/ have been created to combat all the ongoing tactics. Have you been to India?

When I was there, it was written all over the place, starting from preferential treatment in hiring, church advertising everywhere, and more. As a westerner in Hindu clothing, you would not believe the ugly stares I got. So official policy may state one thing, when the reality is another. More of same: http://identitypublishers.org/Stephen-knapp.htm

But we are free to believe whatever we wish to.

 

[Vouthon]

I sincerely wish this were true. Unfortunately, on the ground in India it is another matter
altogether. Sites like this one have been created to combat all the ongoing tactics. Have you been to India?

Dear Vinayaka,

Thank you for your reply, it was most informative if surprising to me. I have never been to India and don't know anyone from India, so I freely admit that I do not have the kind of first hand knowledge that you obviously do.

When I was there, it was written all over the place, starting from preferential treatment in hiring, church advertising everywhere, and more. As a westerner in Hindu clothing, you would not believe the ugly stares I got. So official policy may state one thing, when the reality is another. More of same:

But we are free to believe whatever we wish to.

This is honestly news to me. I wouldn't have imagined there to be such activities. By 'church' do you mean the Catholic Church or Christian churches in general?

Are you still in India? If so I would contact directly the local parish where you have seen such things. This should be reported to people higher up, if you think that there is concentrated efforts being made to coerce people into converting too another religion.

I am sure that there might be two sides to the coin however. I have heard stories of Hindu extremist attacks on Christians, many of whom are of dalit caste. So perhaps there is extremism on both sides?

Both the Catholic Church and the Protestant & Orthodox Communions have long since opposed proselytization, so if this is going on then it should be reported since it is illicit.

 

[Vinayaka]

Dear Vinayaka,

Thank you for your reply, it was most informative if surprising to me. I have never been to India and don't know anyone from India, so I freely admit that I do not have the kind of first hand knowledge that you obviously do.



This is honestly news to me. I wouldn't have imagined there to be such activities. By 'church' do you mean the Catholic Church or Christian churches in general?

Are you still in India? If so I would contact directly the local parish where you have seen such things. This should be reported to people higher up, if you think that there is concentrated efforts being made to coerce people into converting too another religion.

I am sure that there might be two sides to the coin however. I have heard stories of Hindu extremist attacks on Christians, many of whom are of dalit caste. So perhaps there is extremism on both sides?

Both the Catholic Church and the Protestant & Orthodox Communions have long since opposed proselytization, so if this is going on then it should be reported since it is illicit.

Thank you for listening. That's refreshing. I am not in India. But the problem certainly persists. Yes, there have been some attacks back on Christians, but there is a press war on that, with both sides making lots of statements, and you never really know the truth. I can understand anger if it was a result from years and years of seeing families broken up, yet I could never condone violence against anyone. The Indian government, in its effort to placate everyone, and not be accused of selectively picking on minorities, actually discriminates against the majority: Hindus. This also has been ongoing problem. A simple example is government controls many temples. So if you make a donation to a temple, in reality its a tax. Not so for Islam or Christianity.

It's also not just the Catholic Church, but many evangelicals as well. Most of it is missionary work disguised as charity, like Samaritan's Purse, where the shoe-boxes of aid supplies has a Bible tract put on top after they get to India. Deceptive tactics on both ends.

Many of the worst offenders are Indian themselves, the more recent converts. As with many faiths, recent converts often have a religious zeal to them. Many states have indeed passed anti-conversion laws, but they often aren't as enforced as they could be.

 

[ratikala]

Dear Ratikala :bow: (I LOVE that smilie!)

perfect for the subject of the infinate nature of god :bow:

On "coincidence of opposites" apologies for not explaining what I meant by that cryptic phrase.

It means that God surpasses or transcends all (apparent) contradictions. In the infinite realm of God, diversity and multiplicity are one. This can be applied to religions too.

thank you for explaining , that now makes perfect sense ,....

It comes from a fifteenth century Cardinal of my Church called Nicholas of Cusa.

Nicholas of Cusa explained it in a work of mystical literature called "On Learned Ignorance":

and I can agree entirely with this , ...
a buddhist will say that the goal of life is to realise the true nature of reality , and a hindu (or at least a visnava , as I am not sure that I wish to speak for all under the giant hindu umbrella), ..... will happily accknowledge the unlimited nature of god ,
so to say informed ignorance is no different to our saying that due to the conditioning of maya we are in ignorance ....

Quote:
His central issue, as discussed in his main work, De Docta Ignorantia (On Learned Ignorance), was the problem of the knowledge of God or of the Absolute Infinite. Nicholas held that the Absolute Infinite cannot be conceived by finite thought. Hence, in theology, only negations can be assumed as true. Although positive theological statements are inevitable in order to think about God, they are inadequate. Paradoxically, one can reach the incomprehensible God only by knowing his incomprehensibility. This is the meaning of the term “learned ignorance.” In the end, both negative and positive theology must be dissolved into inexpressibility; God is ineffable beyond all affirmations and negations. This is the extreme climax of a philosophical theology where the infinite distance between God and the finite has come to a head. More exactly, human beings cannot touch God through knowledge at all, but at the very most only by our yearning for Him.

"one can reach the incomprehensible God only by knowing his incomprehensibility."

this is explained in the bhagavad gita in the chapter on the universal form where arjuna the deciple asks the lord to display his unlimited nature , them feeling utterly bewildered and overwhelmed he asks the lord to return to the form in which he knew him , .....


BG 11.1: Arjuna said: By my hearing the instructions You have kindly given me about these most confidential spiritual subjects, my illusion has now been dispelled.
BG 11.2: O lotus-eyed one, I have heard from You in detail about the appearance and disappearance of every living entity and have realized Your inexhaustible glories.
BG 11.3: O greatest of all personalities, O supreme form, though I see You here before me in Your actual position, as You have described Yourself, I wish to see how You have entered into this cosmic manifestation. I want to see that form of Yours.
BG 11.4: If You think that I am able to behold Your cosmic form, O my Lord, O master of all mystic power, then kindly show me that unlimited universal Self.
BG 11.5: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Arjuna, O son of Pritha, see now My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine and multicolored forms.
BG 11.6: O best of the Bharatas, see here the different manifestations of Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Asvini-kumaras and all the other demigods. Behold the many wonderful things which no one has ever seen or heard of before.
BG 11.7: O Arjuna, whatever you wish to see, behold at once in this body of Mine! This universal form can show you whatever you now desire to see and whatever you may want to see in the future. Everything -- moving and nonmoving -- is here completely, in one place.
BG 11.8: But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give you divine eyes. Behold My mystic opulence!
BG 11.9: Sanjaya said: O King, having spoken thus, the Supreme Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna.
BG 11.10-11: Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths, unlimited eyes, unlimited wonderful visions. The form was decorated with many celestial ornaments and bore many divine upraised weapons. He wore celestial garlands and garments, and many divine scents were smeared over His body. All was wondrous, brilliant, unlimited, all-expanding.
BG 11.12: If hundreds of thousands of suns were to rise at once into the sky, their radiance might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.
BG 11.13: At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands.
BG 11.14: Then, bewildered and astonished, his hair standing on end, Arjuna bowed his head to offer obeisances and with folded hands began to pray to the Supreme Lord.
BG 11.15: Arjuna said: My dear Lord Krishna, I see assembled in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahma sitting on the lotus flower, as well as Lord Siva and all the sages and divine serpents.
BG 11.16: O Lord of the universe, O universal form, I see in Your body many, many arms, bellies, mouths and eyes, expanded everywhere, without limit. I see in You no end, no middle and no beginning.
BG 11.17: Your form is difficult to see because of its glaring effulgence, spreading on all sides, like blazing fire or the immeasurable radiance of the sun. Yet I see this glowing form everywhere, adorned with various crowns, clubs and discs.
BG 11.18: You are the supreme primal objective. You are the ultimate resting place of all this universe. You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest. You are the maintainer of the eternal religion, the Personality of Godhead. This is my opinion.
BG 11.19: You are without origin, middle or end. Your glory is unlimited. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are Your eyes. I see You with blazing fire coming forth from Your mouth, burning this entire universe by Your own radiance.
BG 11.20: Although You are one, You spread throughout the sky and the planets and all space between. O great one, seeing this wondrous and terrible form, all the planetary systems are perturbed.
BG 11.21: All the hosts of demigods are surrendering before You and entering into You. Some of them, very much afraid, are offering prayers with folded hands. Hosts of great sages and perfected beings, crying "All peace!" are praying to You by singing the Vedic hymns.
BG 11.22: All the various manifestations of Lord Siva, the Adityas, the Vasus, the Sadhyas, the Visvedevas, the two Asvis, the Maruts, the forefathers, the Gandharvas, the Yakshas, the Asuras and the perfected demigods are beholding You in wonder.
BG 11.23: O mighty-armed one, all the planets with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your great form, .........



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