Do you think any one faith is the only 'way'?

[ratikala]

......

Nicholas of Cusa calls infinity “absolute,” as it must be understood in a full and unrestrained sense. Hence, the sphere of an independent and self-sufficient finite cannot exist beside it, otherwise infinity itself would actually be finite and restricted. “There cannot be an opposite to the ineffable Infinite,” says Nicholas. “It is also not the whole, to whom a part could be opposed, nor can it be a part… The Infinite is above all that.” (De Visione Dei, VIII[1]) Above all opposites, the Infinite—God—is beyond all multitude as well. Thus, Nicholas calls Him the “Absolute Unity and Oneness,” which is prior to all and includes all. In this sense, he speaks of God as the “coincidence of opposites.” Everything is enveloped in God and developed in the universe... “You, O God, are the antithesis of opposites, because you are infinite; and because you are infinite, you are infinity. In infinity, the antithesis of opposites is without antithesis… Infinity does not tolerate any otherness beside itself; for, as it is infinity, nothing is external to it. The Absolute Infinite includes all and encompasses all.” (De Visione Dei, VIII)

I see the same truth revealed in the gita as you quote here, ....
"The Absolute Infinite includes all and encompasses all.” , ....
"You are the ultimate resting place of all this universe. You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest. You are the maintainer of the eternal religion, the Personality of Godhead. "
"Everything is enveloped in God", ...
"Infinity does not tolerate any otherness beside itself; ", ......

 

[Vouthon]

Dear Ratikala


Thank you for both of your posts, I really do appreciate the insights into comparisons with the Bhagavad Gita, a classic of world literature that I have the utmost respect for (indeed the whole of the Mahabharata).


I see much consonance between your quotations from the Gita and De Docta Ignorantia by Cardinal Cusa. Both understand perfectly that God's infinity transcends and embraces everything that is and is cannot be limited to categories. The many entities - ie as the Gita puts it "demigods & various other living entities" - and the diversity of this finite universe coincide or "take their rest" in the oneness of the infinite God who encompasses everything as the universal form of all forms.


Cusa actually states this:

"...The absolute, Divine Mind, is all that is in everything that is... Divinity is the enfolding and unfolding of everything that is. Divintiy is in all things in such a way that all things are in divinity... There is only one mirror without flaw: the Divine, in whom what is revealed is received as it is. For this mirror is not essentially different from any existing thing. Rather in every existing thing it is that which is: it is the universal form of being...The human mind is the all of its dreams... Mind itself supposing itself to encompass, survey and comprehend all things thus concludes that it is in everything and everything is in it... whatever is found in creatures is found in the Divine....”

- Cardinal Nicolas of Cusa, (1401 – 1464) Catholic mystic & German prelate

Compare:

BG 11.7: O Arjuna, whatever you wish to see, behold at once in this body of Mine! This universal form can show you whatever you now desire to see and whatever you may want to see in the future. Everything -- moving and nonmoving -- is here completely, in one place.

Also of great interest to me is the verse you quoted which goes:

I see assembled in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahma sitting on the lotus flower, as well as Lord Siva and all the sages and divine serpents.

I like the comparison you made between his "learned ignorance" and the conditioning of "maya" leading to ignorance.

Here's a little more on that from Cusa:

Since the divine in us is certainly not vain, we need to know that we are ignorant. If we can attain this end completely, we shall attain 'learned ignorance'. For nothing becomes a man, even the most zealous, more perfectly in learning than to be found very learned in ignorance itself, which is his characteristic, and anyone will he the more learned the more he knows his own ignorance

On the infinity of God beyond reason:

"...In all faces, the Face of faces is veiled as a riddle. Howbeit unveiled it is not seen, until, above all faces, a man enter into a certain secret and mystic silence, where there is no knowing or concept of a face. This mist, cloud, darkness or ignorance, into which he that seeketh thy Face entereth, when he goeth beyond all knowledge and concept, is the state below which Thy Face cannot be found, except veiled; but that very darkness revealeth Thy Face to be there beyond all veils. Hence I observe how needful it is for me to enter into the darknesss and to admit the coincidence of opposites, beyond all grasp of reason, and there to seek the Truth, where Impossibility meeteth us..."

His teachings also led him to an awareness of religious unity ie

"...With many groanings I beseeched the Creator of all, because of His kindness, to restrain the persecution that was raging more fiercely than usual on account of the difference of faith between the religions...We praise our God, whose mercy rules over all His works and who alone has the power to bring it about, that such a great diversity of religions would be brought together in one harmonious peace...How should we bring the manifold of religions to one unity, since our people have defended their religion with blood, and they hardly will be willing to accept a new, unified religion?

Answer: You should not introduce a new religion. But, you should yourselves comprehend, and then show to the peoples, that the true religion is presupposed before all other religions. The unity is before the separation occurs...You will find that not another faith but the one and the same faith is presupposed everywhere...Moses had described a path to God, but this path was neither taken up by everyone nor was it understood by everyone. Jesus illuminated and perfected this path; nevertheless, many even now remain unbelievers. Muhammad tried to make the same path easier, so that it might be accepted by all, even idolaters. These are the most famous of the said paths to God, although many others were presented by the wise and the prophets...Even though you acknowledge diverse religions, you all presuppose in all of this diversity the one, which you call wisdom...There can only be one wisdom. For if it were possible that there be several wisdoms, then these would have to be from one. Namely, unity is prior to all plurality. None of us doubts that it is one wisdom which we all love and because of which we are called philosophers. Through participation in it there are many wise men, although this wisdom remains in itself simple and undivided. We who have made this profession of philosophy love the sweetness of wisdom by no other way than a foretaste in wonder at the things which are subject to sense. For who would not die for the sake of reaching such wisdom from which all beauty, all sweetness of life and everything desirable emanate? What a power of wisdom shines forth in the creation of man, in his limbs, in their order, in the life infused, in the harmony of the organs, in movement, and especially in the rational spirit, which is capable of wonderful arts and is, so to speak, a sign of wisdom in which the eternal wisdom shines forth above all things in a close image, as truth in a close likeness!......Therefore, do not hide Yourself any longer, O Lord. Be propitious, and manifest Your face; and all peoples will be saved, who no longer will be able to desert the Source of life and its sweetness, once having foretasted even a little thereof. For no one departs from You except because He is ignorant of You. It is you O God who is being sought in various religions in various ways and named with various names. For you remain as you are to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it then sword jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious faiths...For infinite wisdom encompasses everything. See how you, the philosophers of the various religious traditions, agree in the religion of one God whom you all presuppose, in that which as lovers of wisdom you profess. Therefore, all human beings profess with you that there is one absolute wisdom whom they presuppose, and this is the one God. Therefore, for all who are vigorous in intellect there is one religion and worship, which is presupposed in all the diversity of rites..."

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464), De Pace Fidei, Catholic mystic

 

[SageTree]

Christian Yogi? ......monday
Christ-yana? .......tursday
Bhakti Christianity? .....wednsday
Christian Dervish? ....thursday and friday
Christafari? .....saturday :rainbow1:
Christ-sattva?.....sunday :namaste

you know what there arnt enough days in the week !

nama salam :namaste

Maybe will have to turn the wheel in monthly cycles or just make a board and put a spinner in the middle, like Twister.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram voutho ji :namaste

Dear Ratikala

Thank you for both of your posts, I really do appreciate the insights into comparisons with the Bhagavad Gita, a classic of world literature that I have the utmost respect for (indeed the whole of the Mahabharata).

:namaste

Also of great interest to me is the verse you quoted which goes:

Quote:
I see assembled in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahma sitting on the lotus flower, as well as Lord Siva and all the sages and divine serpents.

yet still this causes much arguement amongst the varied sects of hinduism ,

each insisting that their god is the supreme god , when each is symultaniously of the same god ,

I like the comparison you made between his "learned ignorance" and the conditioning of "maya" leading to ignorance.

some prefer to say that we are in a state illusion .
however I prefer ignorance , as we are not in full knowledge .

Here's a little more on that from Cusa:

Quote:
Since the divine in us is certainly not vain, we need to know that we are ignorant. If we can attain this end completely, we shall attain 'learned ignorance'. For nothing becomes a man, even the most zealous, more perfectly in learning than to be found very learned in ignorance itself, which is his characteristic, and anyone will he the more learned the more he knows his own ignorance

perfect humility .

On the infinity of God beyond reason:

Quote:
"...In all faces, the Face of faces is veiled as a riddle. Howbeit unveiled it is not seen, until, above all faces, a man enter into a certain secret and mystic silence, where there is no knowing or concept of a face. This mist, cloud, darkness or ignorance, into which he that seeketh thy Face entereth, when he goeth beyond all knowledge and concept, is the state below which Thy Face cannot be found, except veiled; but that very darkness revealeth Thy Face to be there beyond all veils. Hence I observe how needful it is for me to enter into the darknesss and to admit the coincidence of opposites, beyond all grasp of reason, and there to seek the Truth, where Impossibility meeteth us..."

reading a quote out of context is prehaps a little difficult , ...
simply you are saying that knowledge of god is beyond all reasoned searching , beyond all possible comprehension that we must put down all attatchment to reason and step beyond all known conceptions .....
this is a leap of faith that many canot do .

His teachings also led him to an awareness of religious unity ie

 

[ratikala]

continued ...

Quote:
"...With many groanings I beseeched the Creator of all, because of His kindness, to restrain the persecution that was raging more fiercely than usual on account of the difference of faith between the religions...We praise our God, whose mercy rules over all His works and who alone has the power to bring it about, that such a great diversity of religions would be brought together in one harmonious peace...How should we bring the manifold of religions to one unity, since our people have defended their religion with blood, and they hardly will be willing to accept a new, unified religion?

Answer: You should not introduce a new religion. But, you should yourselves comprehend, and then show to the peoples, that the true religion is presupposed before all other religions. The unity is before the separation occurs...You will find that not another faith but the one and the same faith is presupposed everywhere...Moses had described a path to God, but this path was neither taken up by everyone nor was it understood by everyone. Jesus illuminated and perfected this path; nevertheless, many even now remain unbelievers. Muhammad tried to make the same path easier, so that it might be accepted by all, even idolaters. These are the most famous of the said paths to God, although many others were presented by the wise and the prophets...Even though you acknowledge diverse religions, you all presuppose in all of this diversity the one, which you call wisdom...There can only be one wisdom. For if it were possible that there be several wisdoms, then these would have to be from one. Namely, unity is prior to all plurality. None of us doubts that it is one wisdom which we all love and because of which we are called philosophers. Through participation in it there are many wise men, although this wisdom remains in itself simple and undivided. We who have made this profession of philosophy love the sweetness of wisdom by no other way than a foretaste in wonder at the things which are subject to sense. For who would not die for the sake of reaching such wisdom from which all beauty, all sweetness of life and everything desirable emanate? What a power of wisdom shines forth in the creation of man, in his limbs, in their order, in the life infused, in the harmony of the organs, in movement, and especially in the rational spirit, which is capable of wonderful arts and is, so to speak, a sign of wisdom in which the eternal wisdom shines forth above all things in a close image, as truth in a close likeness!......Therefore, do not hide Yourself any longer, O Lord. Be propitious, and manifest Your face; and all peoples will be saved, who no longer will be able to desert the Source of life and its sweetness, once having foretasted even a little thereof. For no one departs from You except because He is ignorant of You. It is you O God who is being sought in various religions in various ways and named with various names. For you remain as you are to all incomprehensible and inexpressible. When you will graciously grant it then sword jealous hatred and evil will cease and all will come to know that there is but one religion in the variety of religious faiths...For infinite wisdom encompasses everything. See how you, the philosophers of the various religious traditions, agree in the religion of one God whom you all presuppose, in that which as lovers of wisdom you profess. Therefore, all human beings profess with you that there is one absolute wisdom whom they presuppose, and this is the one God. Therefore, for all who are vigorous in intellect there is one religion and worship, which is presupposed in all the diversity of rites..."

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464), De Pace Fidei, Catholic mystic

."...Even though you acknowledge diverse religions, you all presuppose in all of this diversity the one, which you call wisdom...There can only be one wisdom. For if it were possible that there be several wisdoms, then these would have to be from one. Namely, unity is prior to all plurality. None of us doubts that it is one wisdom which we all love and because of which we are called philosophers. Through participation in it there are many wise men, although this wisdom remains in itself simple and undivided"


yes there is only one wisdom , but like the understanding of god in his entirity it is an almost unatainable thing , any one presuming their religion to be the true holder of wisdom is deeply deluded , we all touch at whisps of understanding yet our lives are too short to peice all these wisps together for as we grasp one another slips out of our fingers .and the philosopers get caught up in the building of their philosopies an in so doing become obsessed with the conquest and move further and further from god .

it is the simple man that lays himself at gods feet that has acheived wisdom , it is the humble in their lack of opinion that are wise , those that realise that god need no other name than mercifull father , .... not for all the religions in the world , or for their revisions or for their reversion to their source , none accheive god any better than love and humility .