Do you think Moses existed as a historical figure?

[Kenny]

Seems you do not believe much of what Exodus says. That is good because it is a myth.

God will be pleased that he is not the prick scriptures make him out to be and Noah will be pleased that he did not have to be a traitor to humanity by colluding with a genocidal God.

Is there anything in scriptures that you believe?

Regards
DL

Hello DL,

Forgive me if I wasn't clear. I didn't say these things didn't happen but rather how we have translated and interpreted it has been wrong. As a believer in Jesus Christ, we interpret the scriptures through the life of Jesus Christ.

So, for an example, when Jesus says "It is the thief that steals, kills and destroys but I have come to give life an life in abundance", we understand that sickness, disease, wars, pestilence etc was never God's will but it was choices that men made. Ultimately God's desire is for us to have life for He is Life and Love and that we should have it more abundantly.

Are there times when one has to go to war? Absolutely! Think of the Holocaust or the current one happening now with Christians and others if one does not join ISIS. Is it something we want? Absolutely not. Imagine how many lives would have continued to die and how many more Nanking's would have happened had we not dropped the atomic bomb. But it was never God's will that this happened. It happened because free will acted independently without God and therefore was influenced by that which represents the Serpent ( not making any reference to your avatar)

 

[outhouse]

If Moses was a myth
It means the fall of Islam
Because the God of Islam, announced this myth also in the Qur'an ???

Not just Moses. Abraham and sons, and Noah as well, are stated historically as literary creations.

 

[Kenny]

Not just Moses. Abraham and sons, and Noah as well, are stated historically as literary creations.

Of course, that is personal opinions.

Matt 1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac. Isaac was the father of Jacob. Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.
3Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah (their mother was Tamar). Perez was the father of Hezron. Hezron was the father of Ram.
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab. Amminadab was the father of Nahshon. Nahshon was the father of Salmon.
5Salmon was the father of Boaz (his mother was Rahab). Boaz was the father of Obed (his mother was Ruth). Obed was the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon (his mother was Bathsheba, the widow of Uriah).
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam. Rehoboam was the father of Abijah. Abijah was the father of Asaph.
8 Asaph was the father of Jehoshaphat. Jehoshaphat was the father of Jehoram. Jehoram was the father of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham. Jotham was the father of Ahaz. Ahaz was the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh. Manasseh was the father of Amos. Amos was the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).
12 After the Babylonian exile: Jehoiachin was the father of Shealtiel. Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abiud. Abiud was the father of Eliakim. Eliakim was the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok. Zadok was the father of Akim. Akim was the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar. Eleazar was the father of Matthan. Matthan was the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus, who is called the Messiah.

It seems like every generation added to their "literary" creative story. I'm a literary creation too!

 

[outhouse]

Of course, that is personal opinions.

Only you have posted opinion. And apologetic sources out of desperation.

By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'

Scholarly consensus since the 19th century has been that the story cannot be literally true, so the ark story is generally considered to be legend.[4][5][6][7]

 

[Kenny]

Only you have posted opinion. And apologetic sources out of desperation.

By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'

Scholarly consensus since the 19th century has been that the story cannot be literally true, so the ark story is generally considered to be legend.[4][5][6][7]

And understandably so. I think we can give up on trying to find the remains of Hitler too.

The most we can do, at this point, is come up with possibilities:

Cave of the Patriarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

we do know that they think it was Abraham's tomb and not because they think he was a made up figure.

 

[outhouse]

Your so desperate its getting laughable. Its sad at this point.

 

[Greatest I am]

Hello DL,

Forgive me if I wasn't clear. I didn't say these things didn't happen but rather how we have translated and interpreted it has been wrong. As a believer in Jesus Christ, we interpret the scriptures through the life of Jesus Christ.

So, for an example, when Jesus says "It is the thief that steals, kills and destroys but I have come to give life an life in abundance", we understand that sickness, disease, wars, pestilence etc was never God's will but it was choices that men made. Ultimately God's desire is for us to have life for He is Life and Love and that we should have it more abundantly.

Are there times when one has to go to war? Absolutely! Think of the Holocaust or the current one happening now with Christians and others if one does not join ISIS. Is it something we want? Absolutely not. Imagine how many lives would have continued to die and how many more Nanking's would have happened had we not dropped the atomic bomb. But it was never God's will that this happened. It happened because free will acted independently without God and therefore was influenced by that which represents the Serpent ( not making any reference to your avatar)

You indicate that things are not going the way God wills things to be.

God's will is supreme yet man can thwart it according to you.

If your God is so weak that he cannot have his will done then that might make you wonder why you follow a loser.

If your God is Love and he can throw the great majority of us in hell as he promises to do then you can have that satanic God.

I have one with morals that are above your demiurges.

Mine cures the afflicted. Yours takes the satanic position and kills them all. Let me know when you are ready to meet a moral non-misogynistic and non-homophobic God.

Regards
DL

 

[Kenny]

1) You indicate that things are not going the way God wills things to be.

2) God's will is supreme yet man can thwart it according to you.

3) If your God is so weak that he cannot have his will done then that might make you wonder why you follow a loser.

I'm not sure that your progressions is correct:

1) It isn't so much that things aren't going the way God wills it as it it that it isn't going the way He wants it. It is still going in the general direction of where He said it is going to end up being.

2) The supremacy of God's will isn't how you have defined it. The supremacy of God's will is that you have you own free will that He supremely respects. Thus... if you don't want Him to be involved, He will respect that. You can stop His plan for you but you won't change the end result of His plan.

3) Therefore, He isn't so weak as you made it sound like. He is still the end winner.

If your God is Love and he can throw the great majority of us in hell as he promises to do then you can have that satanic God.

Another misconception. God is love... but you have the free will to reject HIm. He doesn't "throw you into hell", His door is open to live with Him. Now, if you don't want to live with Him, then you can move the to next door. It is your choice and free will option.

[/QUOTE]
I have one with morals that are above your demiurges.

Mine cures the afflicted. Yours takes the satanic position and kills them all. Let me know when you are ready to meet a moral non-misogynistic and non-homophobic God.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]
Not really, as we look at Jesus, he heals the afflicted, saves the lost, sets free the captives, gives mercy, loves those who miss the mark (sin), lays down his life for others, helps the poor... etc. etc etc.

Blessings, my friend.

 

[outhouse]

Here's your sign

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence

The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Not just Moses. Abraham and sons, and Noah as well, are stated historically as literary creations.

The difference between myth and reality are in evidence
Noah can be viewed as a legend
The reason is that his personality was before the knowledge of human writing
But with the knowledge of a man writing goes back three thousand years BC
Became a legend in fiction
Such novel Gilgamesh
Is a myth because their people are not well-known
But the idea, which was advocated by the Epic of Gilgamesh writer is the idea of immortality
And the figure of Moses came after writing to tell human
And who wrote about Moses had written by writing events
For instance
Sntql acts of Hitler and Saddam business to subsequent generations us
It will be different novels
But the fact that Hitler and Saddam will remain a reality for us
As for the generations that come after us will govern them through
As for the generations that come after us will govern them through the documents transmitted to them
So with the existence of written documents is considered Cancel historical figures of complex things
Because it is a relative matter
For instance
I used to live in Iraq, and I was working a particular area
But after that I moved to another country
The historic that became a legend in the new country
I could not be proved, but I can proof one way, which documents
So is the written and transmitted documents are standard between myth and reality
History has proved the existence of a person named Moses through documents Torah
Even if it was a myth but steady transmitted documents which are many and multiple

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Only you have posted opinion. And apologetic sources out of desperation.

By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'

Scholarly consensus since the 19th century has been that the story cannot be literally true, so the ark story is generally considered to be legend.[4][5][6][7]

Archaeologists are not infallible from mistakes
In some cases, working according to their personal interests
Or have their own specific ideas
That is why you see the effects of scientists prove that the Bible is correct in all its details
So when we want to get a solid idea we have to look in all directions
Yes, there are some events transmitted to us in certain it is possible to exaggerate the great
For example, the greatness of King Solomon
In the Torah
Are greatly exaggerated
Because King Solomon was unable to deploy his power outside of Palestine
But King Solomon remains the fact and not a myth
Moses also was a man with a target of freeing the Jewish people from Egyptian pharaohs
But it is possible that there will be an exaggeration to transfer events
But remains the pivotal event which Moses personal reality and not a myth

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Of course, that is personal opinions.

Matt 1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac. Isaac was the father of Jacob. Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.
3Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah (their mother was Tamar). Perez was the father of Hezron. Hezron was the father of Ram.
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab. Amminadab was the father of Nahshon. Nahshon was the father of Salmon.
5Salmon was the father of Boaz (his mother was Rahab). Boaz was the father of Obed (his mother was Ruth). Obed was the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon (his mother was Bathsheba, the widow of Uriah).
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam. Rehoboam was the father of Abijah. Abijah was the father of Asaph.
8 Asaph was the father of Jehoshaphat. Jehoshaphat was the father of Jehoram. Jehoram was the father of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham. Jotham was the father of Ahaz. Ahaz was the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh. Manasseh was the father of Amos. Amos was the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).
12 After the Babylonian exile: Jehoiachin was the father of Shealtiel. Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abiud. Abiud was the father of Eliakim. Eliakim was the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok. Zadok was the father of Akim. Akim was the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar. Eleazar was the father of Matthan. Matthan was the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus, who is called the Messiah.

It seems like every generation added to their "literary" creative story. I'm a literary creation too!

Yes this is true
Torah and the Gospel is creative work because they convey the events by the writer 's ability to transfer
It humanitarian work , but it was organized by a particular order
And we call the revelation of God
Who had written because they have a vision
They are interrelated in the Torah
Started her travels for over a thousand years

 

[outhouse]

Archaeologists are not infallible from mistakes
In some cases, working according to their personal interests
Or have their own specific ideas

Yes, some are apologetically biased, and admit having a bible in one hand and a shovel in the other trying to prove a literal interpretation. "Mazar"

 

[Greatest I am]

I'm not sure that your progressions is correct:

1) It isn't so much that things aren't going the way God wills it as it it that it isn't going the way He wants it. It is still going in the general direction of where He said it is going to end up being.

2) The supremacy of God's will isn't how you have defined it. The supremacy of God's will is that you have you own free will that He supremely respects. Thus... if you don't want Him to be involved, He will respect that. You can stop His plan for you but you won't change the end result of His plan.

3) Therefore, He isn't so weak as you made it sound like. He is still the end winner.



Another misconception. God is love... but you have the free will to reject HIm. He doesn't "throw you into hell", His door is open to live with Him. Now, if you don't want to live with Him, then you can move the to next door. It is your choice and free will option.

I have one with morals that are above your demiurges.

Mine cures the afflicted. Yours takes the satanic position and kills them all. Let me know when you are ready to meet a moral non-misogynistic and non-homophobic God.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]
Not really, as we look at Jesus, he heals the afflicted, saves the lost, sets free the captives, gives mercy, loves those who miss the mark (sin), lays down his life for others, helps the poor... etc. etc etc.

Blessings, my friend.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure that your progressions is correct:

1) It isn't so much that things aren't going the way God wills it as it it that it isn't going the way He wants it. It is still going in the general direction of where He said it is going to end up being.

2) The supremacy of God's will isn't how you have defined it. The supremacy of God's will is that you have you own free will that He supremely respects. Thus... if you don't want Him to be involved, He will respect that. You can stop His plan for you but you won't change the end result of His plan.

3) Therefore, He isn't so weak as you made it sound like. He is still the end winner.



Another misconception. God is love... but you have the free will to reject HIm. He doesn't "throw you into hell", His door is open to live with Him. Now, if you don't want to live with Him, then you can move the to next door. It is your choice and free will option.

I have one with morals that are above your demiurges.

Mine cures the afflicted. Yours takes the satanic position and kills them all. Let me know when you are ready to meet a moral non-misogynistic and non-homophobic God.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]
Not really, as we look at Jesus, he heals the afflicted, saves the lost, sets free the captives, gives mercy, loves those who miss the mark (sin), lays down his life for others, helps the poor... etc. etc etc.

Blessings, my friend.[/QUOTE]

So what God wills is not the same as what God wants. Ok. Misuse the English language if you like.

Strange that you say God respects our free will when he sure ignores our free will choice to live every time his is shown as killing us and that is quite a lot in scriptures and includes many children and babies. That fact soundly refutes your delusion.

As to your last -------

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

You are making a fool of yourself and Christians. Do you wish to continue?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Here's your sign

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence

The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible

I don't know if I can agree with you here only because Mr. Netanyahu mentioned Moses in his speech just the other day.

Seems he has not learned that the Moses of the bible is a mythical character.

Regards
DL

 

[outhouse]

Seems he has not learned that the Moses of the bible is a mythical character.

All Abrahamic religions hold severe bias to his existence. That and Abraham as well.

Fanaticism and fundamentalism are hard to reverse.

 

[Kenny]

I have one with morals that are above your demiurges.

Mine cures the afflicted. Yours takes the satanic position and kills them all. Let me know when you are ready to meet a moral non-misogynistic and non-homophobic God.

Regards
DL

Not really, as we look at Jesus, he heals the afflicted, saves the lost, sets free the captives, gives mercy, loves those who miss the mark (sin), lays down his life for others, helps the poor... etc. etc etc.

Blessings, my friend.

So what God wills is not the same as what God wants. Ok. Misuse the English language if you like.

What part was wrong? Healing the afflicted, giving mercy or was was misused?

Strange that you say God respects our free will when he sure ignores our free will choice to live every time his is shown as killing us and that is quite a lot in scriptures and includes many children and babies. That fact soundly refutes your delusion.

Hardly, in as much as you weren't there when it happened, have no idea of why it happened and have no concept of why it needed to happen.

Let's look at something closer to history to open your beautiful eyessssss and see if we can find at least something like it (although there is much that isn't like it) so that you can understand a little better.

We sent the atomic bomb twice to Japan and, unfortunately, had to include children and babies. The Japanese were inhumane (Nanking and others) and would continue that process if not stopped. One was forced to do something that one didn't like to do because the options of not doing it were worse than if one did do it.

Would you have suggested to let the raping and killing of Japanese to continue?

As to your last -------

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.

You are such a literalist instead of looking deeper into the meaning. He was advising them of the realities of what was to come:
bring hither, and slay [them] before me;
which had its accomplishment in the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; John Gill

You are making a fool of yourself and Christians. Do you wish to continue?

Regards
DL

I don't think so. I am just being gentle as a dove. Please feel free to continue, if you so desire. I would be happy to share my viewpoints. Knowing that I am not God, I don't claim to be 100% correct, but I have learned something since I started growing some grey hairs.

 

[outhouse]

I am just being gentle as a dove.

Cooperative maybe not but non violent? yes

 

[Vishvavajra]

I don't know if I can agree with you here only because Mr. Netanyahu mentioned Moses in his speech just the other day.

Seems he has not learned that the Moses of the bible is a mythical character.

Regards
DL

So, a professional politician--the chief Likudnik, no less--uses the myth of Moses to support his party's particular brand of ethnic nationalism, and that says... something... about the consensus of academic Biblical scholars on the subject?

Judaic history begins in the Two Kingdoms period. Everything before that is mythic. Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon--all mythic characters. They're on the level of Gilgamesh, Heracles, Agamemnon, et al.

At the same time, mythic is not the same thing as fictional. A single person didn't just sit down and invent Moses; myths grow out of whole cultures over time, with a lot of people contributing to the narrative. The goal of myth isn't to make stuff up but to express things like cultural identity and values in the form of stories, usually set in the distant past.

 

[Kenny]

Cooperative maybe not but non violent? yes

It's good to see you again.