Do you think Moses existed as a historical figure?

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Oh dear...
Just one question:
Do you believe as Musa did that Bani Israel were enslaved by Pharao and his people?


P.s bani israel are the sons of Israel/Yaqub aleyhi salaam, a son of Ishaq ibn Ibrahim pbuh. Jews are just one clan amongst 12 clans of Bani Israel.


I dont mind if jews deny that they were enslaved they dont believe in Quran, but its quite a shocker when Muslim says that he doesnt believe jews/Bani israel were enslaved. Brother maybe i misunderstood u, i hope iam wrong.

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

… and one I make gladly.

Go to sleep, you 69 years old rabbi. You make zero sense.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's in the first chapter, only a 5 minutes read it here.

Seriously? That's laughable.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Go to sleep, you 69 years old rabbi. You make zero sense.

loooool

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

Seriously? That's laughable.

It's laughable to credit an Egyptian princess with a knowledge
of Hebrew etymology.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It doesn't address Jewish/Semitic slavery during Amarna period and from the majority of Egyptian sources such as those from Manetho and Chaeremon, they address Moses as an ancient Egyptians and his followers for that too. Sigmund Freud has been largely nullified in his credibility, but he makes a compelling case that Moses was not a Jew, but an ancient Egyptian in his book, Moses and Monotheism.

^ ignore list ...

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Ok its time for me to evacuate myself from this thread.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perfect. Now Zulk and outhouse can chat with each other without polluting serious conversation with such silliness.

 

[Deadtroopers]

The problem with this position is the historicity of errors within the scientific field.

At one time Belshazzar, king of Babylon, was an historic king doubted by critics but now they have discovered it is true. Likewise, at one time they though King David was a myth, until they found evidence of the same.

Ahab and Xerxes are now also known to be true. I am not surprised.

Erm, Xerxes is in Herodotos dear boy, he has never been known not to be true. I think Belshazzar turned up when Layard first thrust a spade.
The circumstances of Genesis and Exodus et al. are falsified, don't you get it? Palestine/Egypt/Sinai are the most dug-over, pored-over ground on the planet. The probability of any part of these tales being true except in generic details true to all times and places is vanishingly small.

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

Perfect. Now Zulk and outhouse can chat with each other without polluting serious conversation with such silliness.

Go to sleep, your age is hindering my understanding of your reading comprehension. You're drunk, rabbit.

 

[Kenny]

Erm, Xerxes is in Herodotos dear boy, he has never been known not to be true. I think Belshazzar turned up when Layard first thrust a spade.
The circumstances of Genesis and Exodus et al. are falsified, don't you get it? Palestine/Egypt/Sinai are the most dug-over, pored-over ground on the planet. The probability of any part of these tales being true except in generic details true to all times and places is vanishingly small.

No... We are just starting to dig.

Darius I the Great was king of the Persian empire from 522 to 486 BC. He gave permission to renew the rebuilding of the temple (Ezra 6:1-12). His monumental tomb is cut into a cliff near the Persian capital of Persepolis, Iran. There are three other tombs there, thought to be those of the Persian king Xerxes (485-465 BC; married to Esther);

Defending Your Faith -

Related to Belshazzar
Belshazzar, king of Babylon, was another historic king doubted by critics. Belshazzar is named in Daniel 5, but according to the non-Biblical historic record, the last king of Babylon was Nabonidus. Tablets have been discovered, however, describing Belshazzar as Nabonidus’ son and documenting his service as coregent in Babylon. If this is the case, Belshazzar would have been able to appoint Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” for reading the handwriting on the wall (as recorded in Daniel 5:16). This would have been the highest available position for Daniel.

- See more at: A Brief Sample of Old Testament Archaeological Corroboration | Cold Case Christianity

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

No... We are just starting to dig.

Darius I the Great was king of the Persian empire from 522 to 486 BC. He gave permission to renew the rebuilding of the temple (Ezra 6:1-12). His monumental tomb is cut into a cliff near the Persian capital of Persepolis, Iran. There are three other tombs there, thought to be those of the Persian king Xerxes (485-465 BC; married to Esther);

Defending Your Faith -

Related to Belshazzar
Belshazzar, king of Babylon, was another historic king doubted by critics. Belshazzar is named in Daniel 5, but according to the non-Biblical historic record, the last king of Babylon was Nabonidus. Tablets have been discovered, however, describing Belshazzar as Nabonidus’ son and documenting his service as coregent in Babylon. If this is the case, Belshazzar would have been able to appoint Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” for reading the handwriting on the wall (as recorded in Daniel 5:16). This would have been the highest available position for Daniel.

- See more at: A Brief Sample of Old Testament Archaeological Corroboration | Cold Case Christianity

Most people seem to think that we know everything about Egyptian history, when in fact we only know a fraction of it.

 

[Pegg]

I am interested in your responses. I chose "Maybe. Half historical, half fictional."

If we all agree that the historical Moses as related in the Bible never existed, then we have to account for what (if anything) he is based on (since it was likely oral tradition before it was written down).

You can argue that some ancient Jewish scribes made it all up, which is possible, but some educated guesswork can be made, since it's also possible for it to have a historical core beneath the legends and myths.

so what you are saying is you think a few Hebrew men created a whole new religion which imposed strict rules and regulations on a nation of people who were accustomed to worshiping idols and false gods and having the freedom to worship as they please. You think they all agreed to a much more strict moral code and you think the whole nation willingly agreed to follow those few men based on a fictional character?

Several million people all at the same time agreed to that??? Is that even possible???

 

[Deadtroopers]

Re slaves: this is an argument of semantics. I think it can be agreed there were unfree persons in Egypt until and after the state dissolved into thew Roman Principate. The modern, western, and ancient understandings of 'slave' are very different. Semites have been trekking in an out of Egypt since Semites turned up in the records.

It's laughable to credit an Egyptian princess with a knowledge
of Hebrew etymology.

Have you ever actually looked at any Egyptian? You can see at a glance clear cognates. Aramaic was the diplomatic koine for the entire period for gawds sake.

Jews are just one clan amongst 12 clans of Bani Israel.

No, Judah and Benjamin, two tribes. And a clan is a part of a tribe. The words are not interchangeable in meaning.
This "Bani Israel" is a later retrojection; one the "Samaritans"; or the actual Israel; have never, for all practical purposes, accepted.
The Archaeological and inscriptional record knows only a northern kingdom, 'Israel', and a southern kingdom, 'Judah'. Both arose from the surrounding native Canaananite culture and indeed are subsets of that culture, largely indistiguishable both ion language and artefacts. The first of these states to coalesce; by about a century and maybe more; was 'Israel'. It overshadowed 'Judah' throughout it's history. I don't think 'Judah' was 20% the size of 'Israel' for most of their joint history. The Jews usurped the northern kingdom's history in the Persian thru Hasamonean periods.

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

so what you are saying is you think a few Hebrew men created a whole new religion which imposed strict rules and regulations on a nation of people who were accustomed to worshiping idols and false gods and having the freedom to worship as they please. You think they all agreed to a much more strict moral code and you think the whole nation willingly agreed to follow those few men based on a fictional character?

Several million people all at the same time agreed to that??? Is that even possible???

No, and I'm not saying that either.

 

[Zulk-Dharma]

Have you ever actually looked at any Egyptian? You can see at a glance clear cognates. Aramaic was the diplomatic koine for the entire period for gawds sake.

I don't get your point here. Egyptian is a different language and while it has some cognates, it plays no role.

 

[Pegg]

No, and I'm not saying that either.

thats good because I really can't believe that the complex system of worship could have been invented by men based on a fictional character.

Some of the laws would never have been implemented if men were the originators of the laws and at least one law is beyond the ability of any man to judge...that is the law of coveting. Only God can know who has coveted something belonging to another... so no man in his right mind would invent a law that they have no way of enforcing.

Moses was most certainly an historical person. If he wasnt, Judasim simply would not exist today.

 

[Deadtroopers]

so what you are saying is you think a few Hebrew men created a whole new religion which imposed strict rules and regulations on a nation of people who were accustomed to worshiping idols and false gods and having the freedom to worship as they please. You think they all agreed to a much more strict moral code and you think the whole nation willingly agreed to follow those few men based on a fictional character?

Several million people all at the same time agreed to that??? Is that even possible???

Judaism evolved over about 800 years at least. Until very late on we see gods, both male and female, worshipped alongside Yahweh. To this day we see in the Psalms, Genesis and lots of other places in the Tanakh references to Yahweh being the son of a higher god and part of a divine council. At all times he is surrounded, and indeed cannot act without, divine hypostases and other divine beings. Satan, Wisdom, Seraphim and Cherubim, angels, archangels and demons. Any date you contrive for Judaism becoming a monotheism is purely arbitrary; in fact with Shekinah, Metatron and Kabbalah you can argue it never did become such a thing.

 

[Deadtroopers]

I don't get your point here. Egyptian is a different language and while it has some cognates, it plays no role.

See Ahkenaten's daughter's letter to the Hittite king asking him to send her a husband. It is in Aramaic. That princess could certainly puzzle Hebrew or have it puzzled for her.

 

[outhouse]

Until very late on we see gods, both male and female, worshipped alongside Yahweh. To this day we see in the Psalms,

And we have been telling her for years, this same information. She refuses it.

Judaism evolved over about 800 years at least

I give it a bit longer from Canaanite mythology around 1200 BC to after the temple fell and orthodox Pharisaic Judaism set in. 200 CE ish


But yes polytheistic Judaism, every bit of 800.