Do you think Moses existed as a historical figure?

[Zulk-Dharma]

See Ahkenaten's daughter's letter to the Hittite king asking him to send her a husband. It is in Aramaic. That princess could certainly puzzle Hebrew or have it puzzled for her.

Interesting, but still... I'm not convinced.

But I admit, you make a fair point.

 

[Pegg]

Judaism evolved over about 800 years at least. Until very late on we see gods, both male and female, worshipped alongside Yashweh. To this day we see in the Psalms, Genesis and lots of other places In the Tanakh references to Yahweh being the son of a higher god and part of a divine council. At all times he is surrounded, and indeed cannot act without, divine hypostases and other divine beings. Satan, Wisdom, Seraphim and Cherubim, angels, archangels and demons. Any date you contrive for Judaism becoming a monotheism is purely arbitrary; in fact with Shekinah, Metatron and Kabbalah you can argue it never did become such a thing.

sure, the israelites were always going back to false worship of false gods. Why? Because they kept on doing what they were instructed not to do.... "do not marry the daughters of the land"

Deut 7:1 “When Jehovah your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and take possession of,+ he will also clear away populous nations from before you:+ the Hit′tites, the Gir′ga·****es, the Am′or·ites,+ the Ca′naan·ites, the Per′iz·zites, the Hi′vites, and the Jeb′u·sites,+ seven nations more populous and mightier than you are.+2 Jehovah your God will give them over to you, and you will defeat them.+You should without fail devote them to destruction.+ You must not make any covenant with them nor show them any favor.+3 You must not form any marriage alliances* with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons.+4 For they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods;+ then Jehovah’s anger will blaze against you, and he will swiftly annihilate you.+

​

According to the hebrew scriptures, Jehovah was the 'Only True God' and the 'Almighty' and the 'Creator of Heaven and Earth'
The other gods being worshiped were false gods, gods contrived by man. They were carved from wood and stone and worshipped. No where does it say that any of those gods were real dieties. They have no power.
Yes the spirits are real. Satan and his demons are real. Cherubs and Seruphs and angels are real. But this does not mean the gods of the nations are real...they are simply forms of false worship inspired by the demons and satan.

Judaism was monotheistic from the very beginning as was told to the Isrealites by Moses

Deut 4:35 You yourselves have been shown these things so you will know that Jehovah is the true God;+ there is no other besides him"
​

 

[outhouse]

The other gods being worshiped were false gods, gods contrived by man.

There is no difference between Yahweh and El as far as being contrived by man. They made drawings and pottery shards of Yahweh just the same as any other man made deity.

 

[Kenny]

so what you are saying is you think a few Hebrew men created a whole new religion which imposed strict rules and regulations on a nation of people who were accustomed to worshiping idols and false gods and having the freedom to worship as they please. You think they all agreed to a much more strict moral code and you think the whole nation willingly agreed to follow those few men based on a fictional character?

Several million people all at the same time agreed to that??? Is that even possible???

Couple of thoughts here.

1) You haven't established that he was a fictional character.
2) If you go by the information in the Tanakh, they didn't willingly agree and follow. At the first time Moses left, Aaron created the image of a god of Egypt
3) They complained again and again about going back to Egypt.

 

[outhouse]

Judaism was monotheistic from the very beginning as was told to the Isrealites by Moses

Thanks Pegg.

You help provide evidence against the historicity of Moses. If Moses existed, why was monotheism born under King Josiah's reforms?

 

[Pegg]

Couple of thoughts here.

1) You haven't established that he was a fictional character.
2) If you go by the information in the Tanakh, they didn't willingly agree and follow. At the first time Moses left, Aaron created the image of a god of Egypt
3) They complained again and again about going back to Egypt.

1. Im not trying to establish that was a fictional character. I believe he was 100% real person.

2. All the Hebrews, and many egyptions, left with Moses after the final plague. So I think they did agree to follow him out. And then we have the installation of the covenant where the entire assembly agreed to enter into the covenant. Of course there were always some who were half hearted, some who complained, some who rebelled afterward. But it was never the entire nation who did that. There were always a core of faithful Israelites who upheld their end of the covenant.

 

[Kenny]

Judaism evolved over about 800 years at least. Until very late on we see gods, both male and female, worshipped alongside Yahweh. To this day we see in the Psalms, Genesis and lots of other places in the Tanakh references to Yahweh being the son of a higher god and part of a divine council. At all times he is surrounded, and indeed cannot act without, divine hypostases and other divine beings. Satan, Wisdom, Seraphim and Cherubim, angels, archangels and demons. Any date you contrive for Judaism becoming a monotheism is purely arbitrary; in fact with Shekinah, Metatron and Kabbalah you can argue it never did become such a thing.

You would be hard pressed to convince people of this position. Judaism was monotheistic from the beginning.

 

[Kenny]

1. Im not trying to establish that was a fictional character. I believe he was 100% real person.

2. All the Hebrews, and many egyptions, left with Moses after the final plague. So I think they did agree to follow him out. And then we have the installation of the covenant where the entire assembly agreed to enter into the covenant. Of course there were always some who were half hearted, some who complained, some who rebelled afterward. But it was never the entire nation who did that. There were always a core of faithful Israelites who upheld their end of the covenant.

My humble apology, I misunderstood

 

[outhouse]

You would be hard pressed to convince people of this position. Judaism was monotheistic from the beginning.

You need to take a class at a credible university. Your factually incorrect.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[79] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[80] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah, seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage



Monotheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When Israel was destroyed by Assyria (c.721 BCE) refugees brought this form of theism to Judah, where it was upheld during the reigns of at least two kings.[who?] At this stage (late 7th century), Judaism was not strictly monotheistic

 

[Kenny]

You need to take a class at a credible university. Your factually incorrect.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[79] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[80] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah, seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage



Monotheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When Israel was destroyed by Assyria (c.721 BCE) refugees brought this form of theism to Judah, where it was upheld during the reigns of at least two kings.[who?] At this stage (late 7th century), Judaism was not strictly monotheistic

I would say it this way, monotheism existed different from any other beginning with Abraham. However, Israel vacillated back and forth.

 

[outhouse]

beginning with Abraham

He is considered a literary creation.

Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'


the biblical texts reflected first millennium conditions and concerns

 

[outhouse]

However, Israel vacillated back and forth

We do not see that with monotheism. Yet people did rally round Yahweh off and on.

What we do see is Canaanite mythology and deities, and that in war time people would rally around Yahweh but still holding on to polytheism.

What you may not understand is that these were not some orthodox culture with a single religion. These people belonged to multiple cultures and traditions.

After the exile they were forced by their captors to a single tradition. This is when Moses was born.

Even after the exile, polytheism was not dead, just because King Josiah ruled in on one god. It took 200-400 more years before Judaism was even fully monotheistic. Just before Jesus was born during Hellenistic oppression.

 

[outhouse]

Great vid for the evolution of monotheism in Judaism.

 

[Deadtroopers]

And we have been telling her for years, this same information. She refuses it.



I give it a bit longer from Canaanite mythology around 1200 BC to after the temple fell and orthodox Pharisaic Judaism set in. 200 CE ish


But yes polytheistic Judaism, every bit of 800.

Josiah seems to be the take-off point for the monotheist schtick, around 600BC and the finding/forging of what might be Deutoronomy; 200AD is about when you can say we have Rabbinic Judaism: hence c800 years.

Edit: Ah; sorry, didn't read all the way down. I see you've said that already. Kudos.

 

[psychoslice]

Of course the story of Moses is just a story, I can't see how anyone in this time can think otherwise.

 

[Deadtroopers]

You would be hard pressed to convince people of this position. Judaism was monotheistic from the beginning.

Oh for... READ THE BOOKS. Insisting on being a brain-dead numptie and arguing against the plain and obvious reading of the texts; never mind a couple of hundred years of scholarship by tens of thousands (conservatively) of people will just get you stuck on ignore.

 

[Deadtroopers]

Of course the story of Moses is just a story, I can't see how anyone in this time can think otherwise.

Neurology. Even if we haven't had Paul-like experiences ourselves, we are far more likely to have encountered the kind of people - the schizotypal personality, about ten per-cent of us - who originate religions than the 'normal' population. In my experience we are a lot brighter and think things thru a lot more deeply as well. Some of that is from having to check whether a thing has any external reality or is just going on in our heads. The average joe can't distinguish.

 

[psychoslice]

Neurology. Even if we haven't had Paul-like experiences ourselves, we are far more likely to have encountered the kind of people - the schizotypal personality, about ten per-cent of us - who originate religions than the 'normal' population. In my experience we are a lot brighter and think things thru a lot more deeply as well. Some of that is from having to check whether a thing has any external reality or is just going on in our heads. The average joe can't distinguish.

Yes, just what I said, its all make believe.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I am interested in your responses. I chose "Maybe. Half historical, half fictional."

If we all agree that the historical Moses as related in the Bible never existed, then we have to account for what (if anything) he is based on (since it was likely oral tradition before it was written down).

You can argue that some ancient Jewish scribes made it all up, which is possible, but some educated guesswork can be made, since it's also possible for it to have a historical core beneath the legends and myths.

First of all -
If the historical Moses was not right
It means the result that the Quran that you believe in is not true as well ???
Why speak Holy Moses ??
Is God in Islam did not know this fact also ??

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

100% theological written in mythological rhetorical prose.

The problem is no one with credibility is debating the Israelites Canaanite heritage that started after 1200 BC. What is up for debate is who else joined these Semitic people who slowly evolved into Israelites.

We do not see Israelites with any self identity until after 1000 BC. And at this time they used the Canaanite alphabet, pottery, mythology, and deities.


This is the important part of the debate.

To understand the origin of Moses, one needs to understand the culture that wrote about Moses. NOT the REAL ethnogenesis of Israelites, that Israelites did not even know, because they had been wiped out so many times, that had no clue of their own origins.

Israelites were not some orthodox culture of like minded people. During this time they never were. They were multi cultural people with many different beliefs all based on Canaanite deities, El, Asherah, Baal and Yahweh. And possibly even a sun god early on as a minority polytheistic figure.

One needs to understand monotheism in Israelite cultures, and how monotheism was born during the reign of King Josiah, and then understand his monotheistic reforms after 622BC when the mythology surrounding Moses was finished.


In other words, Moses is a theological product that contained mythology by people who wrote 600 years after their formation from displaced Canaanite cultures after the bronze age collapse.

The book Exodus, is a theological piece.

First of all -
Quran spoke about those events ?
If those events for the Jewish people , it means that the Koran is not true and this is also a logical consequence and mentality
Secondly -
When the man knew the writing was able to write history and the Bible is one of the oldest movable books
Because archeology says that man knew the writing in the age of the Sumerians and Egyptian pharaohs
It is due to four years BC
Thirdly -
The Bible says that Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldeans
The Ziggurat of Ur is the beginnings of humanity transition from nomadic to civilization
They are known in southern Iraq near the city of Nasiriyah effects on the base and Ali bin Abi Talib air borders
This denies the lawsuit that the Jews of the Bronze Age or otherwise
Jewish people because relative to Isaac
It is the illegitimate son to Abraham
Isaac is Abu Jacob , who is also called Israel
Fourth -
Jacob is Abu twelve tribes of Israel
5. The establishment of these Jewish people
Or Israeli
6. Keep the Israeli people on the purity of their ethnic origins
By not mixing or marry other people
7. The Torah is a historical movement to the Code of Jewish people
8. I ask you to use Google between Arabic and English translation even know the meaning of my words
Or send your requests not to understand what type again please