I quoted Strongs concordance, and I used the NASB which are nothing to do with JW's.
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Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Hi @Deeje
1) Deeje said : "You know what @Clear? We give very little credence to anything written that is outside of the accepted Bible canon regardless of who said what."
Deeje, you must realize that in a public forum, you and your modern Christian movement are not the center of the readership. Much of what is written in forums and in historical religious discovery regarding authentic historical Christian religion concerns the earliest authentic Christian religion with THEIR first century theology and THEIR text and THEIR interpretations rather than YOUR nineteen century movement with it’s theology and it’s interpretations.
2) Deeje said : "We believe what Jesus and his apostles said about an apostasy that was to occur after the restraining influence of the apostles was removed."
This is simply a generic posturing statement.
As I have pointed out, the Jehovahs Witness movement is part OF that apostasy and inasmuch as you have moved away from authentic early Christian teachings and have developed and adopted and teach different religion with different texts and different interpretations, you are contributing to the process of apostasy. Your re-interpretation of apostolic doctrines is not evidence of apostolic belief, but it is another process by which apostasy away from their religion occurs.
3) Deeje said : "We give very little credence to anything written that is outside of the accepted Bible canon regardless of who said what."
Actually, your posts are evidence that you give priority to your own theological theories which you read into the text than you do to the historical text, otherwise, you would not change the historical meaning of the text to agree with your own modern theology as I pointed out with your abuse of psalms 146 in posts #141 and #155.
Using faulty scriptures with incorrect interpretations to support apostate religious theories is NOT the way to correct apostasy. @Brian2 and others have been trying to help you understand that your specific theory that there is no spirit in mankind is part of this apostasy AWAY from early Christian religion.
Reliance on personal theology to drive interpretation does not create correct biblical interpretation
For example, in post #195, I gave an example of how the Jehovahs Witness’ abuse and re-interpret biblical text in an attempt to make the text conform with their religious theory. The text in the New World “translation” is NOT even a translation of Matt 27:52-53, but instead, it is a commentary that is snuck into the Jehovahs Witness bible text. No honest translator could or would translate the Greek in this manner.
AN EXAMPLE OF HOW APOSTASY IN TEXT OCCURS
Consider your silly attempt to justify this egregious change of the Greek text without paying attention to the actual Greek or historical use of the text.
You are NOT a reader of Koine Greek and your attempt to justify this egregious and faulty translation falls flat because it is based on a misunderstanding due to lack of ability to even read the base text.
READ what you said : “Deeje Said : "In verse 53 it does not identify who "they" are. ..”. (post #198)
You are referring to an english sentence and are not even referring to the source greek text.
There IS NO "They" in the original greek text. (The original greek text did not NEED the word "they" because all phrases referred to the subject of the sentence. (i.e. The ONLY individuals who are the subject of the sentence)
The Greek text reads : “ And the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves after his rising and went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
και τα μνημεια ανεωχθησαν και πολλα σωματα των κεκοιμεμενων αγιων εγερθη και εξελθοντεσ εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εισ την αγιαν πολιν και ενεπανισθησαν πολλοισ.
There IS no “THEY” in this sentence in greek. The greek sentence does not have the pronoun "THEY" in it because it doesn't NEED a "they". This is a single, running sentence and εισελθον (the plural for "entering") is in the same sentence as “bodies of the saints” (which is the subject). There is NO reference in greek to any other “they” at all because εισελθον already has a reference and subject (the bodies of the saints!).
Your attempt to justify this faulty and erroneous translation simply reveals ignorance of Koine Greek.
IF you will not pay attention to language and historical meaning, you will be left making these sorts of silly interpretations and applying incorrect meanings to the text. The New World "Translation" is guitly of serious, egregious translational errors in this text.
As another example, the New World Translation adds “people coming out from among the tombs” to the base greek text. This phrase does not even exist in the source greek. Such transparent additions made, are, presumably, to support the JW theory, but they do not represent biblical text. (i.e. they are not "biblical")
Also, the addition of “they became visible to many people” is also a poor translation. Mr. Franz, who presumably created the New World Text, adds both a clumsy passive verb and noun where the more correct active verb “appeared” is more historically correct. In early Christianity, these dead saints arose, resurrected from their graves and went to Jerusalem and showed themselves to many in Jerusalem as the early Texts and diaries regarding these resurrected individuals witness to us.
For example, after the Resurrection of Jesus the leaders of Christians were speaking of the resurrection of jesus "And Joseph arose and said unto Annas and Caiaphas: Truly and of right do ye marvel because ye have heard that Jesus hath been seen alive after death, and that he hath ascended into heaven. Nevertheless it is more marvelous that he rose not alone from the dead, but did raise up alive many other dead out of their sepulchres, and they have been seen of many in Jerusalem. And now hearken unto me; for we all know the blessed Simeon, the high priest which received the child Jesus in his hands in the temple. And this Simeon had two sons, brothers in blood and we all were at their falling asleep and at their burial. Go therefore and look upon their sepulchres: for they are open, because they have risen, and behold they are in the city of Arimathaea dwelling together in prayer. And indeed men hear them crying out, yet they speak with no man, but are silent as dead men. But come, let us go unto them and with all honour and gentleness bring them unto us, and if we adjure them, perchance they will tell us concerning the mystery of their rising again." G. Nicodemus then relates the conversation of these leaders with these two men who were among those resurrected at the time Christ was resurrected and these men describe the world of spirits where they had been when their spirits separated from their bodies.
This is part of the decensus literature of early Christianity and such stories are what Matthew 27:52-53 referred to in early Christianity. The text meant what is said in the early Christian movement. The early Christians did not need to change the text to fit their theology.
SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF APOSTASY OF TEXTUAL THEOLOGY IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS BIBLICAL TEXTS DOES NOT MEAN "COMPLETE APOSTASY OF TEXT"
This sort of apostasy in textual theology that I have pointed out, does not mean the New World “translation” doesn’t get much correct. For example, the J.W. translation of John 1:1, third phrase is controversial and the JWs get a lot of grief over the translation of that phrase, yet, their translation of this phrase is grammatically correct and a perfectly fine translation.
Their translation of Matthew 27:52-53 represents apostasy from the original.
IS THERE ANY KOINE GREEK READER WHO WANTS TO TRY TO JUSTIFY THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF MATTHEW 27:52-53? EVEN ONE??? ANYONE?
2) REGARDING THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS "DEAD BODY THROWING THEORY"
I asked Deeje in post #193 : “ Your “Body Throwing Theory” is yet another interesting difference between Jehovahs Witness religion and early Christian religion.
Can you provide details specifically regarding your method of interpretation of Mathew 27:52-53 as it relates to your “Dead Body Throwing Theory” where dead bodies were "thrown out of thir graves and “went” into Jerusalem and “appeared to many”? Why not allow the original interpretation a priority over your "Dead Body Throwing Theory" interpretation?”
Can you tell us more regarding how such a theory would work Physically?
Are JUST the dead bodies of the saints thrown out of the graves or is it equal opportunity throwing of dead bodies with a mixture of other bodies of other religions thrown out of their graves too?
How does the dead body get thrown from it's grave outside of Jerusalem all the way to the city?
If the upheaval of earth is so violent so as to throw dead bodies out of their graves, why would the city not be destroyed as well?
Why no record of such destruction?,
etc. etc. etc. etc.
The "Dead body throwing theory" is a bad, bad theory.
The Annointed said : “It would appear that Deeje, does not believe the JW bible, or at least chooses to reject those parts that do not support her erroneous beliefs.”
Hi @The Anointed . I think Deeje has a significant degree of faith in her religion and her bible. I honor her for her faith in God and for the good that I think she is trying to do. I have had nothing but good experiences with Jehovahs Witnesses I have met in person and believe they are frequently wonderful people who add good moral values to their communities. I like the Jehovahs Witnesses and attempt to be kind to them whenever we meet and I honor them for their sacrifice of time and effort and commitment. Having said this, I also think they inadvertently make their own mistakes and they make many theological contributions to apostasy away from original Christian religion (as do all of us as individuals).
Clear
τωσιτωσεω
1) Deeje said : "You know what @Clear? We give very little credence to anything written that is outside of the accepted Bible canon regardless of who said what."
Deeje, you must realize that in a public forum, you and your modern Christian movement are not the center of the readership. Much of what is written in forums and in historical religious discovery regarding authentic historical Christian religion concerns the earliest authentic Christian religion with THEIR first century theology and THEIR text and THEIR interpretations rather than YOUR nineteen century movement with it’s theology and it’s interpretations.
2) Deeje said : "We believe what Jesus and his apostles said about an apostasy that was to occur after the restraining influence of the apostles was removed."
This is simply a generic posturing statement.
As I have pointed out, the Jehovahs Witness movement is part OF that apostasy and inasmuch as you have moved away from authentic early Christian teachings and have developed and adopted and teach different religion with different texts and different interpretations, you are contributing to the process of apostasy. Your re-interpretation of apostolic doctrines is not evidence of apostolic belief, but it is another process by which apostasy away from their religion occurs.
3) Deeje said : "We give very little credence to anything written that is outside of the accepted Bible canon regardless of who said what."
Actually, your posts are evidence that you give priority to your own theological theories which you read into the text than you do to the historical text, otherwise, you would not change the historical meaning of the text to agree with your own modern theology as I pointed out with your abuse of psalms 146 in posts #141 and #155.
Using faulty scriptures with incorrect interpretations to support apostate religious theories is NOT the way to correct apostasy. @Brian2 and others have been trying to help you understand that your specific theory that there is no spirit in mankind is part of this apostasy AWAY from early Christian religion.
Reliance on personal theology to drive interpretation does not create correct biblical interpretation
For example, in post #195, I gave an example of how the Jehovahs Witness’ abuse and re-interpret biblical text in an attempt to make the text conform with their religious theory. The text in the New World “translation” is NOT even a translation of Matt 27:52-53, but instead, it is a commentary that is snuck into the Jehovahs Witness bible text. No honest translator could or would translate the Greek in this manner.
AN EXAMPLE OF HOW APOSTASY IN TEXT OCCURS
Consider your silly attempt to justify this egregious change of the Greek text without paying attention to the actual Greek or historical use of the text.
You are NOT a reader of Koine Greek and your attempt to justify this egregious and faulty translation falls flat because it is based on a misunderstanding due to lack of ability to even read the base text.
READ what you said : “Deeje Said : "In verse 53 it does not identify who "they" are. ..”. (post #198)
You are referring to an english sentence and are not even referring to the source greek text.
There IS NO "They" in the original greek text. (The original greek text did not NEED the word "they" because all phrases referred to the subject of the sentence. (i.e. The ONLY individuals who are the subject of the sentence)
The Greek text reads : “ And the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves after his rising and went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
και τα μνημεια ανεωχθησαν και πολλα σωματα των κεκοιμεμενων αγιων εγερθη και εξελθοντεσ εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εισ την αγιαν πολιν και ενεπανισθησαν πολλοισ.
There IS no “THEY” in this sentence in greek. The greek sentence does not have the pronoun "THEY" in it because it doesn't NEED a "they". This is a single, running sentence and εισελθον (the plural for "entering") is in the same sentence as “bodies of the saints” (which is the subject). There is NO reference in greek to any other “they” at all because εισελθον already has a reference and subject (the bodies of the saints!).
Your attempt to justify this faulty and erroneous translation simply reveals ignorance of Koine Greek.
IF you will not pay attention to language and historical meaning, you will be left making these sorts of silly interpretations and applying incorrect meanings to the text. The New World "Translation" is guitly of serious, egregious translational errors in this text.
As another example, the New World Translation adds “people coming out from among the tombs” to the base greek text. This phrase does not even exist in the source greek. Such transparent additions made, are, presumably, to support the JW theory, but they do not represent biblical text. (i.e. they are not "biblical")
Also, the addition of “they became visible to many people” is also a poor translation. Mr. Franz, who presumably created the New World Text, adds both a clumsy passive verb and noun where the more correct active verb “appeared” is more historically correct. In early Christianity, these dead saints arose, resurrected from their graves and went to Jerusalem and showed themselves to many in Jerusalem as the early Texts and diaries regarding these resurrected individuals witness to us.
For example, after the Resurrection of Jesus the leaders of Christians were speaking of the resurrection of jesus "And Joseph arose and said unto Annas and Caiaphas: Truly and of right do ye marvel because ye have heard that Jesus hath been seen alive after death, and that he hath ascended into heaven. Nevertheless it is more marvelous that he rose not alone from the dead, but did raise up alive many other dead out of their sepulchres, and they have been seen of many in Jerusalem. And now hearken unto me; for we all know the blessed Simeon, the high priest which received the child Jesus in his hands in the temple. And this Simeon had two sons, brothers in blood and we all were at their falling asleep and at their burial. Go therefore and look upon their sepulchres: for they are open, because they have risen, and behold they are in the city of Arimathaea dwelling together in prayer. And indeed men hear them crying out, yet they speak with no man, but are silent as dead men. But come, let us go unto them and with all honour and gentleness bring them unto us, and if we adjure them, perchance they will tell us concerning the mystery of their rising again." G. Nicodemus then relates the conversation of these leaders with these two men who were among those resurrected at the time Christ was resurrected and these men describe the world of spirits where they had been when their spirits separated from their bodies.
This is part of the decensus literature of early Christianity and such stories are what Matthew 27:52-53 referred to in early Christianity. The text meant what is said in the early Christian movement. The early Christians did not need to change the text to fit their theology.
SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF APOSTASY OF TEXTUAL THEOLOGY IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS BIBLICAL TEXTS DOES NOT MEAN "COMPLETE APOSTASY OF TEXT"
This sort of apostasy in textual theology that I have pointed out, does not mean the New World “translation” doesn’t get much correct. For example, the J.W. translation of John 1:1, third phrase is controversial and the JWs get a lot of grief over the translation of that phrase, yet, their translation of this phrase is grammatically correct and a perfectly fine translation.
Their translation of Matthew 27:52-53 represents apostasy from the original.
IS THERE ANY KOINE GREEK READER WHO WANTS TO TRY TO JUSTIFY THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION OF MATTHEW 27:52-53? EVEN ONE??? ANYONE?
2) REGARDING THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS "DEAD BODY THROWING THEORY"
I asked Deeje in post #193 : “ Your “Body Throwing Theory” is yet another interesting difference between Jehovahs Witness religion and early Christian religion.
Can you provide details specifically regarding your method of interpretation of Mathew 27:52-53 as it relates to your “Dead Body Throwing Theory” where dead bodies were "thrown out of thir graves and “went” into Jerusalem and “appeared to many”? Why not allow the original interpretation a priority over your "Dead Body Throwing Theory" interpretation?”
Can you tell us more regarding how such a theory would work Physically?
Are JUST the dead bodies of the saints thrown out of the graves or is it equal opportunity throwing of dead bodies with a mixture of other bodies of other religions thrown out of their graves too?
How does the dead body get thrown from it's grave outside of Jerusalem all the way to the city?
If the upheaval of earth is so violent so as to throw dead bodies out of their graves, why would the city not be destroyed as well?
Why no record of such destruction?,
etc. etc. etc. etc.
The "Dead body throwing theory" is a bad, bad theory.
The Annointed said : “It would appear that Deeje, does not believe the JW bible, or at least chooses to reject those parts that do not support her erroneous beliefs.”
Hi @The Anointed . I think Deeje has a significant degree of faith in her religion and her bible. I honor her for her faith in God and for the good that I think she is trying to do. I have had nothing but good experiences with Jehovahs Witnesses I have met in person and believe they are frequently wonderful people who add good moral values to their communities. I like the Jehovahs Witnesses and attempt to be kind to them whenever we meet and I honor them for their sacrifice of time and effort and commitment. Having said this, I also think they inadvertently make their own mistakes and they make many theological contributions to apostasy away from original Christian religion (as do all of us as individuals).
Clear
τωσιτωσεω
Last edited:
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe only to those who avoid scriptures that oppose their view.
I believe if one is referring to physical life, death ends that. If one is referring to spiritual life, that continues after death.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
I believe God gives a person the information he needs at the time he needs it.
I believe Heaven only became available when Jesus mentioned it. Even with availability Ibelieve most people choose to be reincarnated. So if it has to be physical life then is Jesus saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all had physical lives during the time Jesus was on earth?
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I do.
I believe Jesus is.
I believe God knows everything. However He didn't say that they will live in the resurrection but that they are living.