Do you understand the New Testament

[AK4]

Well AK4, Your theory is depressing, but also to know that my future does not depend on me is unfair, and cannot be so, for God is Holy: The following scripture in Revelation 22: 11 to 15, Half agrees with you, and half with me, for we read; "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." (So they are free to do as they wish right.)

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city."
(So here they wash their robes by their own free will, and have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city; right.)

"Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."
Those who are outside of the city merited death; but they are obviously still alive; right. ( this is in agreement with what you are saying, in other words all will have life; right.)

Im sorry i didnt mean to depress you. It depresses me that you feel this way. Really it does. It was a hard pill for me to swallow too when i learned of this truth. Yet its not all bad. I know and absolutely believe that we dont have free will, yet the delusion is so strong and so beautifully well crafted and performed by God that I feel like i actually do have it. Everything feels like its all me, like i do have free will. I am continually fooled of this "trick". I think on it this way---i look at mankind and its history and present state and i am thankful that everything is depended on God and not mans so called free will. To know that is God who will set things straight is wonderful.

Also i think on it like this---God, in His perfect wisdom, is giving us an experience of evil now, in this lifetime and look how evil and painful and all that stuff is (sometimes i even question Him like surely there could have been a better way (like i know more than Him)), but to know He has a future and a life where everything will be the opposite and to have that hope makes me persevere the hardships and pain and head and heartaches (believe me i felt it, but then again who hasnt right). The concept of free will sounds good to mankind, but when you actually look at it and scrutinize it you see that, if we did have it, it worthless because it has failed everyone in human history save One.

That is a great verse (those outside the city) to prove all will have life. You are right with those verses. It do seem as we could do these things on our own. We do have a will and we can make choices. But circumstances (conscience or unconscience/past or present) will cause us to choose which choice. Thats why through judgment God will cause mankind to willingly (but notice its not on their own) come to repentance.

The best way to look at it is your a father (like God is) and you have bad behaving children and you want them to act good like you act. You put up with their disobedience and you correct them from time to time yet they wont follow your instructions, till one day you put your foot down where they had no other choice but to follow your rules (you give them a severe chastisement) and they then start following your instructions. See your kids then didnt freely choose to obey and for awhile you let them "freely" be like the prodigal son, but in the end you brought about the circumstances that now they will follow your rules. So yes those verse allude to free will but truly if you really scrutinize and compare to other scriptures about judgment and stuff, it wasnt free. We think we have the free will ability to do good or bad so Jesus lets us believe "the lie" so thats why those verses make it seem as if we can do as we wish.

I hope i made you feel a little better. If any consequence to you, once i gave up "the man sitting in the temple of God, claiming himself that he is a god" and let God bring me to repentance it does take away a big burden, actually a huge burden and that when the scriptures really started opening up to me and it makes me want to love God by His rules. How does Paul say it

Ro 2:4 - ....that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance

 

[AK4]

The way we understand what it means is by "getting into the heads" of the people who wrote it.

Coming to educated and researched conclusions about the writer's intent is prerequisite to understanding God's intention, since God's intention is implicit in what the writer wrote, and how and why he wrote it, and is not explicit on its own

Really can you show me a verse on that? When God reveals His Word to whoever im pretty sure they will "get it". You know, He does have that kinda power. Just like He revealed it to Peter and the other Apostles and disciples who were "unlearneth" like the pharisees and scribes. Did God change the rules?

But only if you understand the scripture in question, which is best accomplished through exegesis.

I tend to believe it is best accomplished through the power of God. Exegesis my help just as much it may harm.

Just because your eyes scan the text across the page does not automatically mean that you have comprehension. We learn that little lesson in the first grade. it holds true throughout life.

Yes and if God choses to blind you in this age, it wouldnt matter how much studying you have. Jack Van Impe comes to mind and the late Dr Kennedy who had like 5 or 6 doctorates of theology or something. Look how the resurrected Jesus blinded those walking with Him until He "opened" their eyes.

You assume you know what the text is saying, when it's obvious that you don't, by what you post here. It's also obvious that your technique of doing your homework is flawed, if you don't stop to consider each document in the collection on its own merits.

Well your opinion matters not. You refute with opinion. i use scripture and the technique commanded by God.

Yes, because your "proofs" aren't proofs. They're poorly-formulated opinions.

You have yet prove me wrong with scripture.

Not if you twist meaning so that they all fit neatly together in the box of your own understanding...

I will wait for your proofs, scripturally

Let me see if I understand you correctly: I understand both the literary form of the Bible as a whole, and the literary form of the parable. Because I understand that the entire Bible is not a parable, that means that I don't understand "God's plan and purpose for creating humankind."

How do you think my grasp of the literary nature of the texts contributes in any way to my misunderstanding of "God's plan?"

Well then just try answering the question. What is His plan and purpose? Is the question that hard? Forget the other stuff just answer the question.

Thank you for proving my point in a most excellent and concise way here.
This passage isn't talking about the studying and scholarship that even the ancients used when dealing with scriptural text -- the kind of scholarship that led to the great commentary we call Talmud.

The talmud? :biglaugh::biglaugh: Well now you really lost crediblity. It may have a decent point or two but....the talmud? LOL

This passage is talking about spiritual perception. The problem arises when we fail to understand that, whenever we read the Bible, we are using scholarship and study and human wisdom. Even a cursory reading does that, for if we had not taken advantage of scholarship, study and wisdom, we would not know how to read. But some of us "switch off" our brains after learning how to read, and forget to involve exegesis, so that we can understand the spiritual perceptions of the writers. Surely you know that the perceptions of the writers were different -- sometimes vastly different -- than our own? Surely when reading a text that is separated from us by time, distance, language and culture, you would want to understand as fully as possible what was meant, so that you could understand the authors' spiritual perception?
Or maybe you'd rather live in Bible fairy-land

*still laughing* Exegesis is interesting no doubt and it "can" help in further understanding, but "receiving sight" from being blind to the Word of God does not require such. Its all of God and not on a mere man.

Bible fairy land. How true it is, traditional, mainstream christainity and its theology.

ps. talmud :biglaugh::biglaugh::bow:

 

[sojourner]

Really can you show me a verse on that?

This is a sola scriptura stance, invented during the Reformation. The earliest Christians -- Jesus included -- did not take this stance with regard to the texts. Neither do I.

When God reveals His Word to whoever im pretty sure they will "get it".

When God reveals God's word through scriptural text, I'm pretty sure that we need to study it scholastically, just like Jesus did. BTW, much of the gospel of Matthew is midrashic on older, Hebrew texts. So I'm also pretty sure that the gospel writer thought we needed scholastic study for the texts, too.

Just like He revealed it to Peter and the other Apostles and disciples who were "unlearneth" like the pharisees and scribes.

Not sure that the author of Acts had magical revelation in mind. Jesus was a rabbi, you know. Jesus taught scripture to the disciples -- in the manner of midrash.

I tend to believe it is best accomplished through the power of God.

Osmosis doesn't work when it comes to acquiring knowledge.

Did God change the rules?

No. If God doesn't use osmosis to teach us mathematics, God does not use osmosis to teach us theology.

Exegesis my help just as much it may harm.

In fact, the scales tip heavily toward "help."

Yes and if God choses to blind you in this age, it wouldnt matter how much studying you have. Jack Van Impe comes to mind and the late Dr Kennedy who had like 5 or 6 doctorates of theology or something. Look how the resurrected Jesus blinded those walking with Him until He "opened" their eyes.

Kennedy spent all his time pandering to the fundies, because he knew that's where the money was. I daresay he blinded himself, in that regard.

i use scripture and the technique commanded by God.

Don't you mean that you abuse scripture by misquoting Isaiah?

You have yet prove me wrong with scripture.

I don't intend to do that; it's not necessary or advisable to do so. You're doing a nice job all by yourself.

I will wait for your proofs, scripturally

Too bad there's not a frequent flyer lounge, 'cause it's gonna be an awfully long wait.

Well then just try answering the question. What is His plan and purpose? Is the question that hard? Forget the other stuff just answer the question.

I'm not sure I know what specific question you're asking. But you have yet to answer mine here:

How do you think my grasp of the literary nature of the texts contributes in any way to my misunderstanding of "God's plan?"

The talmud? :biglaugh::biglaugh: Well now you really lost crediblity. It may have a decent point or two but....the talmud? LOL

Pssssst! Your anti-semitic slip is showing...

but "receiving sight" from being blind to the Word of God does not require such.

I suppose that depends upon the type of interpretation you're after. But a gross misreading of the texts through poor exegesis is only going to provide a shaky foundation for formulating any interpretation.

Since we endeavor to read out of the texts what is there, be it "God's will" or author's intent, the hermeneutic is exegetical. The best check of exegetical truth is peer review. One wonders, since you reject the orthodox Christian tradition (and thereby virtually all of Xy), who do you rely on for peer review?


Or do you just assume that you're right, because you apply the very reliable, "'Cause God told me so!" argument?

 

[free spirit]

Im sorry i didnt mean to depress you. It depresses me that you feel this way. Really it does. It was a hard pill for me to swallow too when i learned of this truth. Yet its not all bad. I know and absolutely believe that we dont have free will, yet the delusion is so strong and so beautifully well crafted and performed by God that I feel like i actually do have it. Everything feels like its all me, like i do have free will. I am continually fooled of this "trick". I think on it this way---i look at mankind and its history and present state and i am thankful that everything is depended on God and not mans so called free will. To know that is God who will set things straight is wonderful.

I do not believe that God needs to "trick" us, to do that is unbecoming of God, you cannot be serious.

Also i think on it like this---God, in His perfect wisdom, is giving us an experience of evil now, in this lifetime and look how evil and painful and all that stuff is (sometimes i even question Him like surely there could have been a better way (like i know more than Him)), but to know He has a future and a life where everything will be the opposite and to have that hope makes me persevere the hardships and pain and head and heartaches (believe me i felt it, but then again who hasnt right). The concept of free will sounds good to mankind, but when you actually look at it and scrutinize it you see that, if we did have it, it worthless because it has failed everyone in human history save One.

You are contradicting yourself; because why should I suffer hardship, pain and heartache, when there is no hope that I can better myself?

That is a great verse (those outside the city) to prove all will have life. You are right with those verses. It do seem as we could do these things on our own. We do have a will and we can make choices. But circumstances (conscience or unconscience/past or present) will cause us to choose which choice. Thats why through judgment God will cause mankind to willingly (but notice its not on their own) come to repentance.

The best way to look at it is your a father (like God is) and you have bad behaving children and you want them to act good like you act. You put up with their disobedience and you correct them from time to time yet they wont follow your instructions, till one day you put your foot down where they had no other choice but to follow your rules (you give them a severe chastisement) and they then start following your instructions. See your kids then didnt freely choose to obey and for awhile you let them "freely" be like the prodigal son, but in the end you brought about the circumstances that now they will follow your rules. So yes those verse allude to free will but truly if you really scrutinize and compare to other scriptures about judgment and stuff, it wasnt free. We think we have the free will ability to do good or bad so Jesus lets us believe "the lie" so thats why those verses make it seem as if we can do as we wish.

Yes but sons do not stay children forever, loving dads long for the children to grow up as an equal individual sharing love and respect for each other, and I believe that is God's hope and calling for us through is son Jesus.

I hope i made you feel a little better. If any consequence to you, once i gave up "the man sitting in the temple of God, claiming himself that he is a god" and let God bring me to repentance it does take away a big burden, actually a huge burden and that when the scriptures really started opening up to me and it makes me want to love God by His rules. How does Paul say it
Ro 2:4 - ....that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance

Yes you are correct we have to freely give up our life to him, for he only knows the perfect way to the father.
AK4
You may have a persuasive argument, but what if anything it does profit me to know that in the end my choice was not my choice, for according to you I am only a puppet on a string. That knowledge only encourages me to abandon my self to the selfish desires of my flesh; for why should I sacrifice myself and strive to do better.
In other words AK4 what is God's purpose? If he has programmed me to be bad, he has no right to condemn me; and if he has programmed me to be good why should I receive a reward?
According to you we are nothing more than robots, and according to you he encourages us to believe a lie.
I know that in the end his will is accomplished, for among the evil of this world there is also a lot of good; therefore I am fully convinced that basically to do good or to do evil is our choice. And if I am believing a lie so be it.

 

[AK4]

Eph 4:8
Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." [fn]
Eph 4:8
Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." [fn]
Eph 4:10
He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)​

And again I must point out to you that Jesus mission was to save what it was lost of the house of Israel and He did finished the covenant; the Lord in His ministry announced a new covenant in His blood that was going to redeem many.
Now to this new covenant:

This is not my own "work", but the explanation is correct

Unfortunately, we can not often learn the meaning of Scriptures from Strong's Lexicon. We learn from God by comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual, and only then by the inspiration of His Spirit.

And like many Scriptures in God's Word, the Christian World understand little about spiritual things. Furthermore, when the Scriptures suggest that God is and will be triumphant and victorious over ALL ENEMIES, the theologians of this world are quick to reel God in and diminish often to ought the grand declarations of God and His accomplishments and blessings. Witness their turning I Tim. 2:4,

"For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the TRUTH," ​

into an unattainable "WEAK WISH."

Now then, just how did Jesus, "lead captivity captive" (Eph. 4:8)?

This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18. After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."

There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8. Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse: "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind." So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.

Now Strong's is correct in that "captivity" does, make captive, take captive or captures. And those who ARE made captive, taken captive, or captured, are called "CAPTIVES." Hope I didn't loose you yet.

And so "captivity" is the instrumentality that brings about "captured captives," if you will. God is here labeling all the evils of the world under the one word "captivity." There is a new spiritual law mentioned under the New Covenant called "The Law of Liberty" (James 1:25). Notice that while the "false prophets" of II Pet. 2:1, "...promise them LIBERTY, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the SAME is he brought IN BONDAGE" (Verse 20). Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leads into captivity shall GO into captivity...."

Satan, Religion, the World, our own Carnal Mind--all LEAD US INTO CAPTIVITY, hence we become CAPTIVES. Jesus Christ took ALL CAPTIVITY--ALL THAT CAPTURES, and made a CAPTIVE OF IT ALL. Just how did He do this? (1) "He also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PART OF THE EARTH" (Eph. 4:9). This "descending into the lower part [the very HEART] of the earth" was the very sign of Christ's Messiahship! "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man [Christ] in three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt. 12:40). Contrary to what even I used to believe, this verse is not speaking of the "length" of time that Jesus would be buried, but rather the DEPTH OF SUFFERING He would endure during that three day period of Passover when they crucified our Lord. (Remember how He sweat BLOOD in the Garden)?

The trials and temptations in the desert with Satan cannot be compared with the suffering of those three days of Passover that Jesus went through. So what did it all accomplish? EVERYTHING! John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have PEACE. In the world ye shall have tribulation: BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"!!! JESUS CHRIST LEAD CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE!!! He overcame and CONQUERED ALL ENEMIES, including DEATH ITSELF! And truly, He now has GREAT AND MARVELOUS GIFTS TO GIVE UNTO ALL MANKIND, not the least of which is I Tim. 2:4, and 4:10!

And of the immediate gifts Christ gave, we read: ​

"And he gave some apostles and some, prophets; and some , evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the PERFECTING [MATURING] of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).​

And finally this: ​

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the [spiritually] blind, to set at LIBERTY them that are bruised [crushed by the burden of this world, which Christ OVERCAME], To preach the acceptable year of the Lord ... And He [Jesus] began to say unto them, 'THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS" Luke 4:18-19 & 21).​

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.​

 

[free spirit]

TO EMILIANO AND AK4

Your discussion about Ephesians 4: 8, has been hijacked or diverted by verses 9 and 10, for those two verses leads the unwary to speculations and fruitless discussions, for how do we know what Jesus did if anything while he was dead, speculations are enemy of the truth.
Let me show you my understanding of Ephesians 4: 8, "Therefore it says, When he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and he gave gift to men, and he gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the sons of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ." Have you noticed that I have jumped verses 9 and 10; and read to verse 13. Now it makes sense and the scriptures are clear as a bell.
As you know, Paul, Peter, James, they all identified themselves as prisoners of Jesus Christ, so they were the captives mentioned in Ephesians 4: 8. AM I IN ERROR??????????? IF SO LET ME KNOW.

 

[AK4]

QUOTE: EMILIANO
This is a lot clearer in identifying who are in God’s family ( “as many as received Him&#8221 than “Now scripture reads that every knee shall bow and confess that He is Lord ” But this is you reading into this scripture “and that they can only do this by the holy spirit. But what is said is:

How is it me? This is what the scriptures say. It is not me at all.

1 COR 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

1Jo 4:2 - Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is comeintheflesh is of God: ….. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Isa 45:23 - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me everykneeshallbow, every tongue shall swear.

Ro 14:11 - For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, everykneeshallbow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So cant you see that those who are in the resurrection of the unjust (you know the atheists, muslims, Satanists, most Christians and whoever else) will eventually bow and confess that Jesus is Lord and that the only way they will be able to do this is by the Holy Spirit? These people died not confessing Him and yet they will bow and confess at some time in coming aons. And they will only be able to do this by the Holy Spirit.

But this is just me right?

 

[AK4]

This is a sola scriptura stance, invented during the Reformation. The earliest Christians -- Jesus included -- did not take this stance with regard to the texts. Neither do I.

I still cant believe a pastor who doesnt believe the Word of God is not the final authority. Which is what sola scriptura is saying.

When God reveals God's word through scriptural text, I'm pretty sure that we need to study it scholastically, just like Jesus did. BTW, much of the gospel of Matthew is midrashic on older, Hebrew texts. So I'm also pretty sure that the gospel writer thought we needed scholastic study for the texts, too.

oh boy. try reading something like this Questions on the Miracles of Jesus

What should already be clear by now is that the gospels are not even close to fitting this description of midrash:

1. The various passages of the gospels NEVER start with a scripture citation from the Hebrew Bible, and proceed to explain it.
2. Any explanation of an OT/Tanakh text is done in the middle of a narrative, often as an incidental reference.
3. Most NT passages have no explicit references or allusions to specific verses of the Hebrew Bible.
4. Very few of the miracle stories about Jesus contain any mention or allusion to the Hebrew text at all.
5. The use of the Hebrew Bible in the New Testament is generally used to explain/interpret the actions/events of Jesus' life in light of the Hebrew Text--and not vice versa (i.e., the passage is NOT an explanation of the Hebrew text at all).

Not sure that the author of Acts had magical revelation in mind. Jesus was a rabbi, you know. Jesus taught scripture to the disciples -- in the manner of midrash.

Hogwash. Read above article

Osmosis doesn't work when it comes to acquiring knowledge.

Sorry i dont believe in God being like a genie in a bottle either, nice try though.

No. If God doesn't use osmosis to teach us mathematics, God does not use osmosis to teach us theology.

I know, He uses His spirit, His power. That how visions and dreams come about.

In fact, the scales tip heavily toward "help."

Right. Help lead you to more truth or help lead you from truth.

Kennedy spent all his time pandering to the fundies, because he knew that's where the money was. I daresay he blinded himself, in that regard.

Many also do this with all thier "extra biblical" studies and can be lead away.

Don't you mean that you abuse scripture by misquoting Isaiah?

Well if thats what you believe, oh well.

I don't intend to do that; it's not necessary or advisable to do so. You're doing a nice job all by yourself.

I rest my case

Too bad there's not a frequent flyer lounge, 'cause it's gonna be an awfully long wait.

I figured that also (I wonder if this is Ben Masada im talking to because this seems so familiar)

I'm not sure I know what specific question you're asking. But you have yet to answer mine here:

Wow. See what i was saying? the words were right there in front of you, in plain english, and you didnt see it. As Jesus said (paraphrasing) "you didnt answer mine, niether will i answer you"

Pssssst! Your anti-semitic slip is showing...

Yeah yeah i know i know. Im sooooo anti-semetic. I wont even deem to comment on this anymore.

I suppose that depends upon the type of interpretation you're after. But a gross misreading of the texts through poor exegesis is only going to provide a shaky foundation for formulating any interpretation.

Since we endeavor to read out of the texts what is there, be it "God's will" or author's intent, the hermeneutic is exegetical. The best check of exegetical truth is peer review. One wonders, since you reject the orthodox Christian tradition (and thereby virtually all of Xy), who do you rely on for peer review?


Or do you just assume that you're right, because you apply the very reliable, "'Cause God told me so!" argument?

No i apply the same thing that was said of them (the Apostles) when they had people ask them about thier "cause god told me so!" argument. "Search the scriptures and see if these things were so"----yet another verse you wouldnt believe.

 

[sojourner]

I still cant believe a pastor who doesnt believe the Word of God is not the final authority. Which is what sola scriptura is saying.

The Church is the final authority, because it's Church that's the Body of Christ. The Church has always been the final authority, because it was the Church who wrote the NT and created the Bible, as we have it now. Before there were gospels, there was the Church who told stories and taught lessons. Whiile the texts are foundational, they are not the foundation. Sola scriptura was a knee-jerk reaction of reformation leaders to the authority of the Church. That's all.

What should already be clear by now is that the gospels are not even close to fitting this description of midrash:

1. The various passages of the gospels NEVER start with a scripture citation from the Hebrew Bible, and proceed to explain it.
2. Any explanation of an OT/Tanakh text is done in the middle of a narrative, often as an incidental reference.
3. What should already be clear by now is that the gospels are not even close to fitting this description of midrash:

1. The various passages of the gospels NEVER start with a scripture citation from the Hebrew Bible, and proceed to explain it.
2. Any explanation of an OT/Tanakh text is done in the middle of a narrative, often as an incidental reference.
3. Most NT passages have no explicit references or allusions to specific verses of the Hebrew Bible.
4. Very few of the miracle stories about Jesus contain any mention or allusion to the Hebrew text at all.
5. The use of the Hebrew Bible in the New Testament is generally used to explain/interpret the actions/events of Jesus' life in light of the Hebrew Text--and not vice versa (i.e., the passage is NOT an explanation of the Hebrew text at all).
4. Very few of the miracle stories about Jesus contain any mention or allusion to the Hebrew text at all.
5. The use of the Hebrew Bible in the New Testament is generally used to explain/interpret the actions/events of Jesus' life in light of the Hebrew Text--and not vice versa (i.e., the passage is NOT an explanation of the Hebrew text at all).

Matthew, at least, is. The birth narrative, for example, is clearly midrashic, because it wraps the OT prophecies in a narrative story about those prophecies. A midrash is a retelling of the story that's being talked about. Which is what Matthew does, explaining the prophecies and the Law.

3. Most NT passages have no explicit references or allusions to specific verses of the Hebrew Bible.

We're not talking about "most NT passages." We're talking about the midrashic nature of Matthew.

5. The use of the Hebrew Bible in the New Testament is generally used to explain/interpret the actions/events of Jesus' life in light of the Hebrew Text--and not vice versa (i.e., the passage is NOT an explanation of the Hebrew text at all).

Not according to Matthew. The story is told to explain the prophecies and the Law in light of what Jesus had done.

Hogwash. Read above article

HOgwash. Glen Miller's scholarship is suspect, at best.

I know, He uses His spirit, His power. That how visions and dreams come about.

As you have proven here, visions and dreams are no substitute for solid scholarship. Shoot, you even bow to scholarship by providing the bit fromt he article (above). Do you think these guys sat around dreaming and "having visions?" No. They did their homework. That their homework was done poorly, with a biased agenda is of no consequence. That merely shows that you either 1) also have a bias and an agenda, or 2) don't care enough, or know enough to screen who you're quoting as an "authority."

Truly, if "dreams and visions" are enough, why bother to post the article???

Right. Help lead you to more truth or help lead you from truth.

That depends entirely on what you do with the information -- not the information itself.

Many also do this with all thier "extra biblical" studies and can be lead away.

Yes. Miller is an excellent example of this. Thanks for providing that example for us!

Yeah yeah i know i know. Im sooooo anti-semetic. I wont even deem to comment on this anymore.

Good idea. Some Jews can get pretty irate when they're bashed.

No i apply the same thing that was said of them (the Apostles) when they had people ask them about thier "cause god told me so!" argument. "Search the scriptures and see if these things were so"----yet another verse you wouldnt believe.

I don't suppose you know that exegesis is an exercise in "searching the scriptures?" I've done the exegesis ... and found that the things you claim are not so.

 

[AK4]

{QUOTE}FREESPIRIT
I do not believe that God needs to "trick" us, to do that is unbecoming of God, you cannot be serious.
[/QUOTE]

Your right He doesnt have to. You have to understand the carnal mind. Our minds will delude itself (along with some help from demons and such). For example, God put in the sky shooting stars and meteorites and man thinks they see spaceships and aliens.

Can you handle this truth I will show you? Ask yourself how spiritually honest am i? Okay you have mistaken again. God does use evil (but its always for the greater good rather we see it now or will see it in the future). But He doesnt actually do it, He uses satan or messengers (angel or human) Heres just one example:

1 Kings 22:20 And the Lord said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "'By what means?' the Lord asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the Lord. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you."

Then you have king Nebacanezzar, Judas, pharaoh, demons possessing people to be healed by Jesus, etc etc.

Quote:
You are contradicting yourself; because why should I suffer hardship, pain and heartache, when there is no hope that I can better myself?
There is a saying----“act like it depends on you and pray like it all depends on God” and that’s where it comes in, your suffering ---you don’t know if God will give you the power to persevere or not. That’s why you have this---

Philippians 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (why?) 13 For (because) it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

A second witness--- James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

See you don’t know what God has in store for you. Did He make you (or me) a vessel of honor or dishonor? Who knows. That’s why you have sayings like the one above.


Quote:
Yes but sons do not stay children forever, loving dads long for the children to grow up as an equal individual sharing love and respect for each other, and I believe that is God's hope and calling for us through is son Jesus.
Yes and this is why it is for all mankind. Would it be fair that God created a vessel for dishonor and then destroy that person forever? God is a just God and He will bring salvation to all.

Quote:
Yes you are correct we have to freely give up our life to him, for he only knows the perfect way to the father.
AK4
You may have a persuasive argument, but what if anything it does profit me to know that in the end my choice was not my choice, for according to you I am only a puppet on a string. That knowledge only encourages me to abandon my self to the selfish desires of my flesh; for why should I sacrifice myself and strive to do better.
In other words AK4 what is God's purpose? If he has programmed me to be bad, he has no right to condemn me; and if he has programmed me to be good why should I receive a reward?
According to you we are nothing more than robots, and according to you he encourages us to believe a lie.
I know that in the end his will is accomplished, for among the evil of this world there is also a lot of good; therefore I am fully convinced that basically to do good or to do evil is our choice. And if I am believing a lie so be it.


I will answer this part tomorrow I have to go right now, but I will say that we are not robots—we are far superior. Will explain later.

 

[free spirit]

TO SOJOURNER

Reading through the posts I understand that you are a Pastor, and that you believe that the church is the final authority for interpreting scripture. If that is correct I would appreciate your honest opinion on the following essay. thanks.

THE WILL OF GOD AND THAT OF THE HIGH PRIEST​

We read in Matthew 26 – 42: “He went away again a second time and prayed saying, “My father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, thy will be done”.

As we read the above verse we can be forgiven if we think that God’s will was for Jesus to be executed, and if we think that, then the high priest was only doing God’s will, and if that is so we should also be screaming crucify, crucify him. Therefore it is in the interest and integrity of our holy faith to understand and separate God’s will, from the high priest’s will, because those two wills are intertwined. It is clear however that God could not have achieved his plan of redemption for men without making use of the High priest’s free will. The important thing to understand for the sake of our holy faith is that God used the evil deed of the high Priest, but he (God) had nothing to do with bringing it about, otherwise the high priest would no longer be acting alone or by his own free will.

We all know that the high priest’s will was to have Jesus put to death by execution, for we read in John 11 – 48 – 49 – 50: “If we let him go on like this, all men will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation”. But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for us that one man should die, and that the whole nation should not perish”.

The above verses make the reason and intention of the high priest clear. For he is mainly afraid that his influential position and the Jewish religion will be abolished by the Romans, because they all thought that if Jesus was not stopped, eventually the entire congregation would believe in him and there would be no longer any need for their office and their religion (or nation.) In a nutshell we can confidently say, that the high priest had Jesus put to death so that his influential office and the Jewish religion could continue its existence.

By that knowledge alone we now understand, that Jesus’ execution was soli the will of the high priest and his associates, and God had nothing to do with that decision, nevertheless he did not interfere to save his son or alleviate his sufferings. Therefore, we all should ask ourselves, why he had to pay for our sins with his life? The answer is found in Matthew 5 – 17: For Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.”

We know that all the prophecies that were written about him in the Old Testament were fulfilled as his life unfolded. But how could Jesus fulfill the law? I believe that in order to fulfill the law he had to die sinless. For we read in Hebrews 9 – 27: “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.” Yes, it stand to reason, that only after death the judgment can be final, because only then we can no longer sin.

We know that Adam could not keep one simple law, “Genesis 2 – 17” and as a consequence mankind had to die. But Jesus, a type of Adam kept all of the law, despite the temptation within himself to escape death, as well as the temptation to respond, to those that inflicted on him excruciating pain and verbal abuses. Yet, in all that agonizing time he did not utter one single complain or accusing word, but blessed them by forgiving them. And because of that he fulfilled the law, (or accomplished God’s will) in consequence he reversed what Adam did, therefore now the entire human race has justification of life.

We should know, that much more than justification of life awaits the believer, who through the spirit of Christ become the adopted sons and daughters of God. For we read in ACTS 2 – 33 and verses 38 – 41: “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear.” In verse 38 we read. And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” And verse 41 reads: “So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls”. So, through the Holy Spirit that was given to us, we know that the fulfillment of the law is the true irreversible outcome of his sacrificial mission, for we also read in 1st Corinthians 2 – 10: “For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.”

The following allegorical illustrationshould clarify God’s will regarding the mission given to Jesus. It will also clearly define Jesus’ sacrificial mission of love. So let us imagine that during wartime there are many missions to be carried out against the enemy and all of them contain some risk of possible loss of some members of those who are taking part in the mission. But other times the mission is so risky that they call for volunteers, the mission is such that the probability of survival are nil, but it has to be done; in this case the commander is sacrificing a small willing number of men for the greater good of the cause.

The question we should ask ourselves is this: Is the commander’s will to have those men killed? Or is the commander’s will that the mission is accomplished? And if your answer is what I think it is, now apply the same formula to God’s will regarding the mission given to Jesus.

John 3 – 16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave (sacrificed) his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” So God willingly sacrificed his son for the greater good of humanity. Our thanks go to God and to Jesus who successfully carried out the sacrificial mission of fulfilling the law. Hence, believing in his life and in his triumph over the temptation of sinful flesh now saves us. Furthermore we have been fully assured that he has gracefully donated to us his triumph over sin in the flesh through the gift of his Holy Spirit, so that we now can also resist temptation and live holy lives.

Certainly we can now live holy lives it is confirmed in Luke 1 – 73 – 74 – 75, for we read, “The oath, which he swore to Abraham our father, to grant us that we, being delivered from the power of sin might serve him without fear. In holiness and righteousness before him all of our days.”
The above understanding of the scripture is a trustworthy rendering as we read in 1st Corinthians 15 – 56: “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”
So we can now confidently say, that Jesus by dying sinless fulfilled the law, consequently stripped sin (our enemy) of its power. (the law.)

Glory to God

 

[Sunstone]

I don't feel I understand Christianity, let alone the new testament.

 

[emiliano]

How is it me? This is what the scriptures say. It is not me at all.

1 COR 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

1Jo 4:2 - Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is comeintheflesh is of God: ….. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Isa 45:23 - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me everykneeshallbow, every tongue shall swear.

Ro 14:11 - For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, everykneeshallbow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So cant you see that those who are in the resurrection of the unjust (you know the atheists, muslims, Satanists, most Christians and whoever else) will eventually bow and confess that Jesus is Lord and that the only way they will be able to do this is by the Holy Spirit? These people died not confessing Him and yet they will bow and confess at some time in coming aons. And they will only be able to do this by the Holy Spirit.

But this is just me right?

You are reading what the chapter does not say, it doesn’t mention the Holy Spirit, why did Paul says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”? Since according to you the Holy Spirit will convict all at some point in time, they will all believe and will be saved, in the same passage I see an answer to your “and that they can only do this by the holy spirit “

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. ​

And as I quoted to you earlier “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” That is God’s good pleasure that receive Him who He sent. The resurrection is for Judgment, the day in which God will say:

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Psa 1:5
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Mar 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Jhn 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ​

 

[AK4]

Quote:FREESPIRIT
Yes you are correct we have to freely give up our life to him, for he only knows the perfect way to the father.
AK4
You may have a persuasive argument, but what if anything it does profit me to know that in the end my choice was not my choice, for according to you I am only a puppet on a string. That knowledge only encourages me to abandon my self to the selfish desires of my flesh; for why should I sacrifice myself and strive to do better.
In other words AK4 what is God's purpose? If he has programmed me to be bad, he has no right to condemn me; and if he has programmed me to be good why should I receive a reward?
According to you we are nothing more than robots, and according to you he encourages us to believe a lie.
I know that in the end his will is accomplished, for among the evil of this world there is also a lot of good; therefore I am fully convinced that basically to do good or to do evil is our choice. And if I am believing a lie so be it.

I started to answer this personally but here is how a friend answered someone about the puppet thing

That fact that God exists and that God is sovereign does not somehow deny OUR EXISTENCE. What we say and do absolutely matters. That's WHY we exist, because our existence, and what do say and do DOES MATTER. People ask me all the time:

"Well, if God is going to ultimately save everyone, why did Jesus even have to die in the first place?"
​

That is one of the most stupid questions there is, Yet I get asked it all the time. JESUS DYING IS THE VERY CAUSE AND REASON WHY everyone is going to be saved!!

By your very existence, you are FORCED to make hundreds of choices daily and live your life. Making choices and living your life brings knowledge, experience, and either builds or sometimes destroy traits of character. God is accomplishing is plan in humanity whether they know or understand what He is doing of not, and most of course, do not know or understand. It is a great privilege to know and understand the plan of God, precious few do. Understanding God's sovereignty PROVES to us that EVERYTHING is going to turn out okay, not only for us, but for the whole creation. What greater hope could there ever be than THIS?

If the evil teachings of Christendom where true, then we would have a small fraction of people "freely" choosing to do right, and the vast majority going to a fabled hell to burn for all eternity. What kind of security is there in such damnable heresy?
Now I am sorry that it just DESTROYS one's very emotional makeup and false human security to learn that God is greater than puny man. Man wants to be his own god. Man wants to be in charge of his own destiny. If that were true, then we would all end up in the gutter. Man is not strong enough to do and live rightly. And those who do live a moderately righteous life, only do so because God has enabled them to do so. EVERY GOOD GIFT COMES FROM ABOVE, FROM THE FATHER OF LIGHTS, James tells us.

People think that when they do something good, that they did it ALL ON THEIR OWN, and are to be congratulated. Likewise when people do something evil, that they also did it all on their own, and are to be condemned. People do things according to what circumstances CAUSE THEM TO DO. That does not make us puppets. My no. We think too highly of ourselves if we think we are puppets--we are but A LUMP OF CLAY in the Potter's hands. The Potter being God.
I realize that people JUST HATE AND DESPISE teachings like this even if they are Scriptural Truth. People don't want to be just "a lump of clay in the Hands of a Potter." THEY want to BE THE POTTER. Well, they are not, they are but the clay and God is the SOVEREIGN POTTER.

The reason this thought discourages some people is because they see that THEIR OWN FLESH is really nothing in the sight of the GREAT SOVEREIGN CREATOR GOD. They are "carnal." Paul tells us to be carnally-minded is DEATH. Why?

"For to be carnally minded is DEATH: but to be spiritually minded is LIFE AND PEACE. Because the carnal mind is ENMITY [ABSOLUTE HATRED] AGAINST GOD" (Rom. 8:6-7).
​

And when one HATES GOD, they have NO LIFE AND PEACE, all ends in misery.

So what should one do? CRY OUT TO GOD TO CHANGE YOUR CARNAL HATE FILLED MIND TOWARD GOD! Does God even HEAR such prayers? Of course He does, why it is He who even INSPIRED one to pray that kind of prayer in the first place. And just when where and how does He do that? Through silly emails over the telephone lines like you are receiving from me RIGHT NOW!

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 12:1).
​

God will eventually HUMBLE every soul that ever existed. Perhaps He is humbling your wife's soul right now:

"HUMBLE YOURSELF therefore under the MIGHTY hand of God, that He may EXALT YOU IN DUE TIME" (I Pet. 5:6).
​

 

[free spirit]

I don't feel I understand Christianity, let alone the new testament.

However, was nice of you to drop by,

 

[AK4]

You are reading what the chapter does not say, it doesn’t mention the Holy Spirit, why did Paul says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”? Since according to you the Holy Spirit will convict all at some point in time, they will all believe and will be saved, in the same passage I see an answer to your “and that they can only do this by the holy spirit “

Phl 2:13​

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. ​

And as I quoted to you earlier “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” That is God’s good pleasure that receive Him who He sent. The resurrection is for Judgment, the day in which God will say:

Mat 25:41​

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ​

Psa 1:5​

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. ​

Mar 16:16​

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. ​

Jhn 3:18​

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ​

You know i started to put that verse (Ph 2:13) in my last post to prove my point but i didnt.

Anyway remember everlasting is not scriptural right? So in these verses you are not seeing further than possibly the two coming eons. Yes they are "condemned" and "destroyed" during these eons. Notice there is judgment……

Hold on. Let me let you take the helm for a sec. Tell me, when these people are judged what happens to them and after what happens to them---then what? Remember everlasting, eternal, eternity is not scriptural. So tell me (scripturally) what happens during judgment and then after judgment.

​

Lets see what you come up with.

 

[Sunstone]

However, was nice of you to drop by,

It's nice of you to say so.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's nice of you to say so.

Four's a crowd, man.

This is quite obviously a threesome.

 

[sojourner]

TO SOJOURNER

Reading through the posts I understand that you are a Pastor, and that you believe that the church is the final authority for interpreting scripture. If that is correct I would appreciate your honest opinion on the following essay. thanks.

THE WILL OF GOD AND THAT OF THE HIGH PRIEST​

We read in Matthew 26 – 42: “He went away again a second time and prayed saying, “My father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, thy will be done”.

As we read the above verse we can be forgiven if we think that God’s will was for Jesus to be executed, and if we think that, then the high priest was only doing God’s will, and if that is so we should also be screaming crucify, crucify him. Therefore it is in the interest and integrity of our holy faith to understand and separate God’s will, from the high priest’s will, because those two wills are intertwined. It is clear however that God could not have achieved his plan of redemption for men without making use of the High priest’s free will. The important thing to understand for the sake of our holy faith is that God used the evil deed of the high Priest, but he (God) had nothing to do with bringing it about, otherwise the high priest would no longer be acting alone or by his own free will.

We all know that the high priest’s will was to have Jesus put to death by execution, for we read in John 11 – 48 – 49 – 50: “If we let him go on like this, all men will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation”. But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for us that one man should die, and that the whole nation should not perish”.

The above verses make the reason and intention of the high priest clear. For he is mainly afraid that his influential position and the Jewish religion will be abolished by the Romans, because they all thought that if Jesus was not stopped, eventually the entire congregation would believe in him and there would be no longer any need for their office and their religion (or nation.) In a nutshell we can confidently say, that the high priest had Jesus put to death so that his influential office and the Jewish religion could continue its existence.

By that knowledge alone we now understand, that Jesus’ execution was soli the will of the high priest and his associates, and God had nothing to do with that decision, nevertheless he did not interfere to save his son or alleviate his sufferings. Therefore, we all should ask ourselves, why he had to pay for our sins with his life? The answer is found in Matthew 5 – 17: For Jesus said, “Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.”

We know that all the prophecies that were written about him in the Old Testament were fulfilled as his life unfolded. But how could Jesus fulfill the law? I believe that in order to fulfill the law he had to die sinless. For we read in Hebrews 9 – 27: “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.” Yes, it stand to reason, that only after death the judgment can be final, because only then we can no longer sin.

We know that Adam could not keep one simple law, “Genesis 2 – 17” and as a consequence mankind had to die. But Jesus, a type of Adam kept all of the law, despite the temptation within himself to escape death, as well as the temptation to respond, to those that inflicted on him excruciating pain and verbal abuses. Yet, in all that agonizing time he did not utter one single complain or accusing word, but blessed them by forgiving them. And because of that he fulfilled the law, (or accomplished God’s will) in consequence he reversed what Adam did, therefore now the entire human race has justification of life.

We should know, that much more than justification of life awaits the believer, who through the spirit of Christ become the adopted sons and daughters of God. For we read in ACTS 2 – 33 and verses 38 – 41: “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear.” In verse 38 we read. And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” And verse 41 reads: “So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls”. So, through the Holy Spirit that was given to us, we know that the fulfillment of the law is the true irreversible outcome of his sacrificial mission, for we also read in 1st Corinthians 2 – 10: “For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.”

The following allegorical illustrationshould clarify God’s will regarding the mission given to Jesus. It will also clearly define Jesus’ sacrificial mission of love. So let us imagine that during wartime there are many missions to be carried out against the enemy and all of them contain some risk of possible loss of some members of those who are taking part in the mission. But other times the mission is so risky that they call for volunteers, the mission is such that the probability of survival are nil, but it has to be done; in this case the commander is sacrificing a small willing number of men for the greater good of the cause.

The question we should ask ourselves is this: Is the commander’s will to have those men killed? Or is the commander’s will that the mission is accomplished? And if your answer is what I think it is, now apply the same formula to God’s will regarding the mission given to Jesus.

John 3 – 16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave (sacrificed) his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” So God willingly sacrificed his son for the greater good of humanity. Our thanks go to God and to Jesus who successfully carried out the sacrificial mission of fulfilling the law. Hence, believing in his life and in his triumph over the temptation of sinful flesh now saves us. Furthermore we have been fully assured that he has gracefully donated to us his triumph over sin in the flesh through the gift of his Holy Spirit, so that we now can also resist temptation and live holy lives.

Certainly we can now live holy lives it is confirmed in Luke 1 – 73 – 74 – 75, for we read, “The oath, which he swore to Abraham our father, to grant us that we, being delivered from the power of sin might serve him without fear. In holiness and righteousness before him all of our days.”
The above understanding of the scripture is a trustworthy rendering as we read in 1st Corinthians 15 – 56: “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”
So we can now confidently say, that Jesus by dying sinless fulfilled the law, consequently stripped sin (our enemy) of its power. (the law.)

Glory to God

The theological stance here is one of "substitutionary atonement." That's a valid stance of the Church, but one which is clearly not the only valid stance of the Church. I (and many others) do not hold that viewpoint. For us, reconciliation does not come through the death of Christ, but through his very Incarnation.

God's main "job" is to bring things into being. God is life, therefore, we don't believe that God has any truck with death. Because God is life, in what way would God's design include death. If we look to the creation narratives, we find that it is not God's design, but ours. We insist upon doing the things that make death possible -- against God's wishes.

First of all, let's look at the Matthew reference at the beginning. There are some assumptions made here by the article, and I don't see any exegetical evidence to back up the claims made. This particular passage is wholly Matthean -- that is, it does not appear in any of the other gospels. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves the question: "Why did Matthew include this? What was his theological take on this section of the Passion Narrative, and how was it cogent to the message of his gospel?" And another question: "Is this quotation authentic, or is it a Matthean construct, used to "make the narrative better?" Once those questions are answered, the assumptions made by the article may be validated, or they may be blown out of the water.

 

[sojourner]

That being said, I think it's clear that it was the high priest's intent to kill Jesus. But I don't think it was necessary for Jesus to die. (That may stand in disagreement with Matthew, but not, necessarily, with the other gospels.) I think that salvation is possible without death, and I further think that the circumstances of Jesus'death are highly theologically metaphorical. That is, while his crucifixion is almost certainly an historical fact, the reasons, significance, and design are not particularly fact.

However, had Jesus not been willing to cash bodily a check that he wrote with his mouth -- had he run away, or had he recanted before the Sanhedrin, or had angels come to whisk him down off the cross, he would have lost a great deal of credibility. sometimes a sacrifice has to be made -- not because salvation couldn't otherwise be effected, but as a demonstration that you're willing to go to the mat for your principles. Theologically, Jesus shows here that not even death can silence the message of reconciliation.

Second, let's look at the creation narratives, and draw some comparisons to the Passion. What Adam did wasn't strictly a disobedience to God's commandment. What Adam did was to attempt to cross the line between humanity and Divinity -- to become "like God -- knowing good and evil." The same thing happened to the people on the plain of Shinar.

Because Adam (all humanity) attempts to blur that distinction, we suffer the pain of death. What Jesus did was not so much "take away that sin," as it was a simple reversal. Humans try to become God, and end up in sin. It took God becoming human to reconcile us to God, by "becoming sin" for us. Did Jesus have to die in order to do that? I think that, in order for Jesus to be fully human, yes, he would also have to be fully mortal. But a crucifixion? No. The significance isn't some kind of spiritual magic. It's a metaphor. The one sacrifice of God for the sin of the world, replaces the many animal sacrifices made for the same purpose. It was the early Xians' way of validating the new Covenant.

How did Jesus "fulfill" the Law? By loving and by being an example of love.