Do you understand the New Testament

[AK4]

Greetings, AK4!

　
Your Post #1077 has just been found and printed out, but a quick look at Proverbs 21.1 and 16.1 has already convinced me that those scriptures need not receive the same careful consideration presently being given to other points you have made and to other scriptures you have cited.

　
Where Proverbs 21.1 is concerned, the king in question was no doubt a God-fearing ruler of Israel, and the fact that "the LORD" could be said to be directing the thoughts of a believing monarch praying, presumably, "not my will, but yours be done" (a), can hardly be taken as evidence that such a leader of God's people had no free will.

This may be so, but this is also a universal truth that cant be just "contexted" to the king. The proof is in the verses that follow that this is about all mankind. We are all called kings throughout scripture. See if you contexted even this verse you will see that this is referring to all of mankind. You can go back as far as Proverbs 20:24 [which another good verse against freewill] all the way through chapter 21 and the "context" is still mankind, not just the king.



As for Proverbs 16.1, that passage must also be discounted, not only because the actual meaning is unclear but also because it makes a better case FOR free will than AGAINST it.

I wouldnt say it makes a better case for it. Those translations definitely do make it seem as if "the plans of the mind belongs to mortals", but heres the kicker----Does not God bring about circumstances BEFOREHAND that will MAKE one plan to do whatever it is that this mortal "plans"? Yup heres an example. Say you planned a picnic Sunday afternoon. This is your plan. Sunday comes and its lightning and thundering and raining heavily. Now most people accredit the weather to mother nature and not God, but it is God who controls the weather and there are plenty of verses to show this. But anyway you planned to picnic, but God caused it to rain and lightning so God controlled what you would do.

But lets go before you even planned a picnic. There is ways God made you want to plan a picnic. Lets say you and your spouse have been working too much overtime and havent had time for each other. Somehow God brought about these circumstances [think of whatever you like, it matters not because it all leads to my example] where you guys havent had quality time together. You guys are home on Sunday morning and you both are up watching tv on the couch. The satelite goes out for some reason. With nothing to do now you plan a picnic and your spouse loves the idea. There you go. God brought about the circumstances to MAKE you plan a picnic and He can bring about the circumstances to let your plan come to fruition or not. He actually controls your thoughts whether you believe it or not.

Now most people will take God out of that whole picture and say He had nothing "directly" to do with it. Now you have to come to terms with scriptres like these "all is of God". Do you believe the all to mean everything or all to mean just some/a few/not everything? Do you believe the scriptures that say ALL is of God or do you "DESPISE MY WORD" and say not ALL is of Me [God]? This is how God puts it, not me. Therefore if you honestly and scripturally answer this question, you will see that no where can freewill fit in. I will give the definition of freewill again

the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.



Anyway, AK4, for me there remains the task of responding properly to two of your previous posts addressed to me, a job which may take a while.

No rush. Take your time and pray on it. All i ask is that you respond truthfully and scripturally without contradicting any scripture. Remember this also freewill absolutely contradicts, is contrary to the scriptures that say "all is of God". 　

In the meantime, all the best to you!

And you too.

 

[yrgo]

Greetings, AK4!

　
Proverbs 21.1, NIV:

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases."

　
yrgo (#1079):

" . . . Proverbs 21.1 . . . need not receive the same careful consideration presently being given to other points you have made and to other scriptures you have cited.

"Where Proverbs 21.1 is concerned, the king in question was no doubt a God-fearing ruler of Israel, and . . . [the LORD'S] . . . directing the thoughts of a believing monarch praying . . . "not my will, but yours be done" (a), can hardly be taken as evidence that . . . a leader . . . [SUBORDINATING his will to God's has] no free will."

　
AK4 (#1081):

"This may be so, but this is also a universal truth that cant be just "contexted" to the king. The proof is in the verses that follow that this is about all mankind. We are all called kings throughout scripture. See if you contexted even this verse you will see that this is referring to all of mankind."

　
yrgo (borrowing heavily from AK4's own words in Post 1081):

　
Now, AK4, you have to come to terms with scriptures like "THE KING'S HEART."

Do you believe that the expression "The king's" means "The king's" or does Scripture say "The king's" but actually mean "ALL MANKIND'S"?

In other words, do you believe the scriptures that say "king's" (a) are of God or do you "DESPISE MY WORD" and say not "king's" but "mankind's"?

Kindly bear in mind that "The king's" is GOD'S WORDING, not yrgo's.

　
(a)

"A large population is a king's glory, but without subjects a prince is ruined." (Pr 14.28, NIV)

"When a king's face brightens, it means life; his favor is like a rain cloud in spring." (Pr 16.15, NIV)

"A king's rage is like the roar of a lion, but his favor is like dew on the grass." (Pr 19.12, NIV)


　
Proverbs 21.1, NIV:

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases."

　
AK4 (#1081):

See if you contexted even this verse you will see that this is referring to all of mankind.

　
yrgo:

AK4, "contexting" Proverbs 20.28, 20.26, 20.8, and 20.2—as you are suggesting that Proverbs 21.1 be "contexted"—we find that "God's Word" modified to YOUR specifications reads as follows:

　
28 Love and faithfulness keep . . . [EVERY MAN] safe; through love his throne is made secure.

26 . . . [EVERY] wise . . . [MAN] winnows out the wicked; he drives the threshing wheel over them.

8 When . . . [EVERY MAN] sits on his throne to judge, he winnows out all evil with his eyes.

2 . . . [EVERY MAN'S] wrath is like the roar of a lion; he who angers him forfeits his life.

　
AK4 (#1081):

You can go back as far as Proverbs 20:24 . . . all the way through chapter 21 and the "context" is still mankind, not just the king.

　
yrgo:

Judging from "contexted" versions of Proverbs 20.28 and 20.26, I fear, AK4, that "all of mankind" would disagree with you. "King" definitely means "KING" in Proverbs 20, and there can be little doubt that Proverbs 21.1 really ought to be Proverbs 20.31.
　

AK4 (#1081):

. . . You can go back as far as Proverbs 20:24 [which another good verse against freewill] . . .

　
yrgo:

You quoted a ranch house like Proverbs 21.1 when only seven verses away towered a citadel like Proverbs 20.24???


　
CONTINUED . . .


　
NOTE:

So much for the warm milk, AK4. A response to the MEATY remainder of your Post 1081 is already in the works and should not take many days to complete.

　
All the best to you!
　

 

[free spirit]

Educated by man and not by the Holy Spirit, therefore a double minded man.
By the sound and strength of your argument you must be confident that you are Holy as he is Holy: are you dead to sin, and is sin dead to you?

I wouldnt say that i am holy because there are plenty of things i do that i shouldnt do, but i do try. Im still a sinner yet God is still burning out of me the "hay, wood and stubble" read 1 Cor 3:11-15. I try to be dead to sin. I am not fully yet i do not let sin control me. Day by day i become more dead to sin

If you are dead to sin, your heart will not longer initiates the iniquity of temptation,
And if sin is dead to you, the temptations of the world will not longer seek you.
And If you are truly "buried with Christ" you should know that a dead and buried man can no longer be tempted.
I am afraid that there is a lot of wounded believers out there.







If you do not know the answer to this you are in real trouble, for you do not need scripture to know what is Holy, for he in his mercy has put his laws into the heart of every man.

This answer is half true but what you have basically said here is you dont need the Word of God to know what is holy. No i know you are not "really" saying that but that is what you are saying. Dont you think there was a reason why Paul told Timothy to study to show thyself approved? Why do you think it says that the Word of God is sharper than two edged sword and All scripture [thats the OT and NT, not just the NT] is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. So do you see how your statement shows only the half truth of the full truth. You DO need scripture.

Timothy was going to be an evangelist, therefore he needed the knowledge of persuasion.

It is possible to know all truth and knowledge and yet miss the mark, as we read in 1 Corinthians 13:2, "And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have LOVE, I am nothing."
Love= holiness

 

[AK4]

yrgo (borrowing heavily from AK4's own words in Post 1081):

　
Now, AK4, you have to come to terms with scriptures like "THE KING'S HEART."

Do you believe that the expression "The king's" means "The king's" or does Scripture say "The king's" but actually mean "ALL MANKIND'S"?

In other words, do you believe the scriptures that say "king's" (a) are of God or do you "DESPISE MY WORD" and say not "king's" but "mankind's"?

Kindly bear in mind that "The king's" is GOD'S WORDING, not yrgo's.


מלך

from (04427)

Transliterated Word
Phonetic Spelling

melek

meh'-lek


Parts of Speech
TWOT

Noun Masculine

1199a
Definition

1. king

Translated Words

KJV (2523) - Hammelech, 1; Malcham, 1; Moloch, 1; king, 2518; royal, 2;
NAS (2520) - King, 253; King's, 6; Kings, 41; king, 1730; king's, 241; kingdom, 1; kings, 241; kings', 2; royal, 5;


　
Theres the strongs concordance definition of the word melek and the where this word is also used in the kjv and nas. In that verse it is talking about an “individual”, but in relation to all scripture it is referring to mankind, especially of the elect. The elect are called kings and lords and saviours. Check Revelations, Obadiah, 1 Peter etc etc. These “kings” hearts are “in the hand of the LORD” and all the other verses you quoted. Some of those verses could also be applied to Jesus since He is the King of the kings.

I am not changing the word to meet my ideals, but using the principle that no scripture is its own interpretation and comparing spiritual with spiritual leaving line upon line precept upon precept. In the above I showed you how it is kings being an individual but also how just how the elect is more than one king whos heart is in the hand of the LORD, all thoses kings hearts are also in the hand of the LORD. This can also be matched up with all the predestinated/predestined verses mentioned in the NT. And how this fits with all mankind is that God will be “all in all”, therefore everyone saved and everyone will be “kings”.

　
yrgo:

AK4, "contexting" Proverbs 20.28, 20.26, 20.8, and 20.2—as you are suggesting that Proverbs 21.1 be "contexted"—we find that "God's Word" modified to YOUR specifications reads as follows:

　
28 Love and faithfulness keep . . . [EVERY MAN] safe; through love his throne is made secure.

26 . . . [EVERY] wise . . . [MAN] winnows out the wicked; he drives the threshing wheel over them.

8 When . . . [EVERY MAN] sits on his throne to judge, he winnows out all evil with his eyes.

2 . . . [EVERY MAN'S] wrath is like the roar of a lion; he who angers him forfeits his life.



This is mainly speaking of Jesus and the elect. He is King and they will be kings and these verses hold true to that. They may not be directly talking of all mankind here, [just like the parables in the gospels sometimes only speaking of either the few or the many but both are still in view] but was not ALL mankind given some dominion? Yup. So in relation to that these verses still apply to everyone.

　
yrgo:

Judging from "contexted" versions of Proverbs 20.28 and 20.26, I fear, AK4, that "all of mankind" would disagree with you. "King" definitely means "KING" in Proverbs 20, and there can be little doubt that Proverbs 21.1 really ought to be Proverbs 20.31.


I actually take it as a compliment if all of mankind disagrees with me. That just proves to me more that I am not stuck “in the wisdom of this world”which we are told to become stupid to.

AK4 (#1081):

. . . You can go back as far as Proverbs 20:24 [which another good verse against freewill] . . .

　
yrgo:

You quoted a ranch house like Proverbs 21.1 when only seven verses away towered a citadel like Proverbs 20.24???


Oh I didn’t. there was a reason why I said this and started with that verse “You can go back as far as Proverbs 20:24 . . . all the way through chapter 21 and the "context" is still mankind, not just the king.”

Believe me I have a lot more “citadels” that I can add to this one.

　
CONTINUED . . .


　
NOTE:

So much for the warm milk, AK4. A response to the MEATY remainder of your Post 1081 is already in the works and should not take many days to complete.

　
All the best to you!

I will be waiting and God be with you.

 

[AK4]

quote freespirit
If you are dead to sin, your heart will not longer initiates the iniquity of temptation,

See that’s a “we have a freewill” type of statement. We cant initiate a temptation. We “fall into temptation” or “be tempted by our lusts” or “being tempted”. We can become no “ruled” by these temptations and become dead to sin. For example I am dead to the sin of stealing—I am no longer ruled by this temptation, yes at times I get tempted but I don’t let that temptation rule me. Being tempted by something is not a sin.

And if sin is dead to you, the temptations of the world will not longer seek you.
No longer seek you? Is there a chapter and verse on this? Until we are resurrected and in the Kingdom, temptations are always seeking us. That’s why we are told to “resist the devil and he will flee from you”. It doesn’t say anywhere that in this age the devil HAS FLED from you forever. What you said directly contradicts this verse

1Pe 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

I tell my girlfriend all the time that the churches out there and Christianity tell you something that sounds good and true, but actually they are telling you the very opposite of what the scriptures say. Shes not a believer. She believes in a God but that’s it.

And If you are truly "buried with Christ" you should know that a dead and buried man can no longer be tempted.
I will say it again, my teacher taught me an very important thing “you gotta PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS”. Over and over again he drilled this to me. Lets try this with that verse you are “quoting”

Ro 6:11 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice that word reckon and heres strongs second definition of the greek word logizomai

1. 1. 1. a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight

We are to reckon being dead to sin [“he that says he is without sin is a liar and not of God”]. We are not dead to temptation unless we are truly dead. That’s why we are to reckon/think as if we are dead just the same way we are to think that we are truly alive with Christ right now.

I am afraid that there is a lot of wounded believers out there.


Interesting that you would say this because that is exactly what it is talking about in Revelation about the beast who was wounded.

Timothy was going to be an evangelist, therefore he needed the knowledge of persuasion.



What do you think those “kings, lords, priests” will need when they are saving the rest of mankind. I know you are still new to the God will save all thing so I know you probably don’t know or understand what it is those being saved/in the first resurrection will be doing. Its not what is popularly taught in these “get into heaven and doing nothing churches” or “get me outta here in a rapture and leave the rest be churches”. No those in the first resurrection will be priests—therefore they will have to know the Scriptures.

 

[free spirit]

quote freespirit
If you are dead to sin, your heart will not longer initiates the iniquity of temptation,

See that’s a “we have a freewill” type of statement. We cant initiate a temptation. We “fall into temptation” or “be tempted by our lusts” or “being tempted”. We can become no “ruled” by these temptations and become dead to sin. For example I am dead to the sin of stealing—I am no longer ruled by this temptation, yes at times I get tempted but I don’t let that temptation rule me. Being tempted by something is not a sin.

And if sin is dead to you, the temptations of the world will not longer seek you.
No longer seek you? Is there a chapter and verse on this? Until we are resurrected and in the Kingdom, temptations are always seeking us. That’s why we are told to “resist the devil and he will flee from you”. It doesn’t say anywhere that in this age the devil HAS FLED from you forever. What you said directly contradicts this verse

1Pe 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

I tell my girlfriend all the time that the churches out there and Christianity tell you something that sounds good and true, but actually they are telling you the very opposite of what the scriptures say. Shes not a believer. She believes in a God but that’s it.

And If you are truly "buried with Christ" you should know that a dead and buried man can no longer be tempted.
I will say it again, my teacher taught me an very important thing “you gotta PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS”. Over and over again he drilled this to me. Lets try this with that verse you are “quoting”

Ro 6:11 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.











Notice that word reckon and heres strongs second definition of the greek word logizomai

1. 1. 1. a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight

We are to reckon being dead to sin [“he that says he is without sin is a liar and not of God”]. We are not dead to temptation unless we are truly dead. That’s why we are to reckon/think as if we are dead just the same way we are to think that we are truly alive with Christ right now.

I am afraid that there is a lot of wounded believers out there.


Interesting that you would say this because that is exactly what it is talking about in Revelation about the beast who was wounded.

Timothy was going to be an evangelist, therefore he needed the knowledge of persuasion.



What do you think those “kings, lords, priests” will need when they are saving the rest of mankind. I know you are still new to the God will save all thing so I know you probably don’t know or understand what it is those being saved/in the first resurrection will be doing. Its not what is popularly taught in these “get into heaven and doing nothing churches” or “get me outta here in a rapture and leave the rest be churches”. No those in the first resurrection will be priests—therefore they will have to know the Scriptures.

We read in Galatians 5:24, "Now those who BELONG to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

The key words here are "HAVE CRUCIFIED" OR "have killed" but if you are "still crucifying" you have not arrived yet, therefore you are still considering or in the phase of repentance. Therefore the exhortation and encouragements of the scriptures are for you.

If you are wounded, you are a religious person and you are suffering the daily pangs of temptation; but if you are dead, temptation and the Devil have left you. So spiritually you are dead to temptation, the Devil has fled from you, therefore you have passed from dead to life.

The world's self deception and lie is "RECKON", which makes you believe what is false, and so you believe that your fleshly spirit is dead while you know that sin is alive in you.


You seems to think that the elects testings and repentance have no end. But if you have no hope in this life to reach holiness you are not an elected one, 1 John 3:2 - 3, but a believer nevertheless, with its own reward if indeed you keep the faith to the end.

WHY is so hard for you to believe that he has the power to make us holy, and with our help he can bring to perfection that holiness, we read in 1 John 3:5 - 6, "An you know that he appeared in order to take away sins; and in him there is no sin. NO ONE WHO ABIDES IN HIM SINS; NO ONE WHO SINS HAS SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM."

 

[AK4]

We read in Galatians 5:24, "Now those who BELONG to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

The key words here are "HAVE CRUCIFIED" OR "have killed" but if you are "still crucifying" you have not arrived yet, therefore you are still considering or in the phase of repentance. Therefore the exhortation and encouragements of the scriptures are for you.

Sounds like that doctrine of once saved always saved again. Yes we all have "crucified" some sins, but in no way has anyone fully crucified all their sins. If so then they would be perfect before the resurrection. No we SHALL BECOME perfect or SHALL BE saved in the resurrection. Noone is this beforehand. There is not one scripture [notice i didnt say bible verse] that says anyone is saved before then. You are not thinking of all the scriptures because otherwise you would have a direct contradiction with 1 John 1:7-10

7 Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.
8 If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice.
10 If we should be saying that we have not sinned, we are making Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Notice how these verses are persistent in keeping with the future resurrection and what the rest of scriptures teach that only when we are actually BORN into the Kindgom has one fully been crucified from thier sins. Here is something worth considering

is a very broad term. C. 1. Scofield, in his comment on Rom. 1:16, says very aptly: "The Hebrew and Greek words for salvation imply the ideas of deliverance, safety, preservation, healing, and soundness. Salvation is the great inclusive word of the Gospel, gathering into itself all the redemptive acts and processes: as justification, redemption, grace, propitiation, imputation, forgiveness, sanctification, and glorification."

Salvation, therefore, in its broad sense, has to do with both the soul and the body, with the present life as well as with future life. It has reference, not only to the remission of sin’s penalty an d the removal of its guilt, but also to the conquering of the power of sin and to the final removal of the presence of sin from the body. It is only by recognizing this that one can grasp the full sweep of the Bible doctrine of salvation. And it is only by being able to classify each passage dealing with salvation on the basis of the foregoing facts that one can avoid the confusion that exists in the mind of the average believer. We can best accomplish this end by noting that salvation is spoken of in three tenses, and in carefully considering each tense. All three tenses are roughly summed up in 2 Cor. 1:10: "Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will (future tense) yet deliver us."

If you are wounded, you are a religious person and you are suffering the daily pangs of temptation; but if you are dead, temptation and the Devil have left you. So spiritually you are dead to temptation, the Devil has fled from you, therefore you have passed from dead to life.

Is there two verses anywhere in the Word that says anyone is free from temptation?

The world's self deception and lie is "RECKON", which makes you believe what is false, and so you believe that your fleshly spirit is dead while you know that sin is alive in you.

No the worlds deception is freewill but we're not talking about that now. You are to reckon yourself "buried with Christ" because you are literally still alive but you are dead to the world. We are to reckon to be crucified from the flesh and its passions and desires and reckon to be without sin. We cant say that we are already crucified and without sin because if we do it says

10 ....we are making Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

You seems to think that the elects testings and repentance have no end.

Whoa now. Kinda sounds like eternal torment or eternal hell or eternal correction/chastisement. No. I didnt say that. Only in this life, this age are they to go through this, when the resurrection their "testing" shall be over because just as Jesus says over and over again---we are to overcome and endure to the end. Now where in the NT [original scriptures not bible translations] does it say we fully overcome before the end of this age.

But if you have no hope in this life to reach holiness you are not an elected one, 1 John 3:2 - 3, but a believer nevertheless, with its own reward if indeed you keep the faith to the end.

See you are reading a translation that puts it in the past tense like we have achieved this. Lets look at a better translation

2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is.
3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.

Now you read the KJV and NASB and they put purifying in the past tense as purified. This is a deception of the devil to give a false sense of security to believers to make them like the church of Laodecia and become lukewarm and all the other stuff Jesus says about them. How else do you think the "once saved always saved doctrine" came to be?

WHY is so hard for you to believe that he has the power to make us holy, and with our help he can bring to perfection that holiness, we read in 1 John 3:5 - 6, "An you know that he appeared in order to take away sins; and in him there is no sin. NO ONE WHO ABIDES IN HIM SINS; NO ONE WHO SINS HAS SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM."

Its not a hard thing for me to believe. I believe He does have the power and more. I just know that He is no magic genie in a bottle and from the scriptures i know that He does not operate His creation the way most of the world believes. No one knows or has proof until they rise up in the ressurection hence the spiritual giant Paul saying "lest i fall away". Again you quoted from a bible that translates all this in the past tense, like its done and finished and no more worries. Heres a more literal translation of the greek words

5 And you are aware that He was manifested that He should be taking away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
6 Everyone who is remaining in Him is not sinning. Everyone who is sinning sees Him not, neither knows Him.

 

[yrgo]

Greetings, AK4!

　
Proverbs 21.1, modified NIV:

"THE king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases."

　
AK4 (#1084):

. . . In that verse it is talking about an "individual" . . .

　
yrgo:
　
I agree.

And not just any royal whatever as in Proverbs 20.2 ("A king's"), 20.8 and 20.28 ("a king"), and 20.26 ("A wise king").

If the author of "three thousand proverbs" (a) wrote Proverbs 21.1, then "THE" king that Solomon had in mind while penning that particular statement was undoubtedly HIMSELF!

(a) 1Ki 4.32
　
　

AK4 (#1084):

. . . In that verse it is talking about an "individual", but in relation to all scripture it is referring to mankind, especially of the elect. The elect are called kings and lords and saviours. Check Revelations, Obadiah, 1 Peter etc etc. These "kings" hearts are "in the hand of the LORD" and all the other verses you quoted. Some of those verses could also be applied to Jesus since He is the King of the kings.
　
　

yrgo:

I disagree, believing that Proverbs 21.1 was written with one particular king in mind and either by the selfsame king or by one of the selfsame king's subjects.

Of course, "if the shoe fits, wear it," as the saying goes.

Clearly, the language of Proverbs 21.1 "fits" Jesus perfectly (a) and may be applied as well to "people belonging to God" (b), that is to say, to persons who, like Jesus (c), have exercised their FREE WILL (d) in such a way that they, too, are experiencing "the life that is truly life." (e)

(a) Heb 10.7 + Lk 22.42
(b) 1Pe 2.9, NIV
(c) Heb 1.9
(d) Ro 6.17-18; 8.12,5,13; 6.12-13
(e) 1Ti 6.19, NIV; cf. Ro 8.6 (Prov 21.1)
　

　
AK4 (#1084):

. . . In the above I showed you how it is kings being an individual but also how just how the elect is more than one king whos heart is in the hand of the LORD, all thoses kings hearts are also in the hand of the LORD. . . . And how this fits with all mankind is that God will be "all in all", therefore everyone saved and everyone will be "kings".


yrgo:
　
Always, AK4, I have understood the expression "all in all" to mean what a Webster's dictionary says about the phrase:

"something that represents all things regarded as having value, significance, or importance . . . "

To me, the expression "all in all" is irreducible and means "everything."

To you, apparently, "all in all" can be broken down into a singular "all" meaning "everything" and a plural "all."

You are right, of course, but using "all in all" in such a way is "something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind." (a)

Come to think of it, "the LORD" (b) said as much to "the people of Judah" (b) who had "done evil in his eyes." (b)

The "LORD Almighty, the God of Israel" (c), had told the people, "Obey me, and . . . Walk in all the ways I command you . . . " (d). " . . . Reform your ways and your actions . . . " (e)

"But they did not listen or pay attention," says the LORD; "instead, [AK4,] they [exercised their FREE WILL and] followed the STUBBORN INCLINATIONS OF THEIR EVIL HEARTS." (f)

　
IS THAT NOT SO?

　
(a) Jer 7.31, NIV
(b) Jer 7.30, NIV
(c) Jer 7.21, NIV
(d) Jer 7.23, NIV
(e) Jer 7.3, NIV
(f) Jer 7.24, modified NIV



　
AK4 (#1084):

. . . and everyone will be "kings".

　
　
yrgo:
　
"kings"?
You mean "priests" (a), don't you?
　
(a) Rev 20.6; cf. 1Pe 2.5,9; Rev 1.6; 5.10 (Ex 19.6; Isa 61.6)
　
　
Anyway, AK4, work on a proper response to your Post 1081 continues.


Merry Christmas to you and yours!

 

[AK4]

yrgo:
　
I agree.

And not just any royal whatever as in Proverbs 20.2 ("A king's"), 20.8 and 20.28 ("a king"), and 20.26 ("A wise king").

If the author of "three thousand proverbs" (a) wrote Proverbs 21.1, then "THE" king that Solomon had in mind while penning that particular statement was undoubtedly HIMSELF!

With that in mind then you call also say that when Moses penned “Israel My Son, My firstborn” had nothing to do with Jesus but actual Israel. Solomon was not writing for just himself. Then you could also say when Paul wrote “these were written for OUR admonition” it was only meant for him and the Corinthians at that time. No. None of these were the case. These things [all of them] were written for everyone, especially those who believe.
　

yrgo:

I disagree, believing that Proverbs 21.1 was written with one particular king in mind and either by the selfsame king or by one of the selfsame king's subjects.

Of course, "if the shoe fits, wear it," as the saying goes.

Clearly, the language of Proverbs 21.1 "fits" Jesus perfectly (a) and may be applied as well to "people belonging to God" (b), that is to say, to persons who, like Jesus (c), have exercised their FREE WILL (d) in such a way that they, too, are experiencing "the life that is truly life."

How do you get that they are excersing a freewill? The kings heart, Jesus’ heart, those belonging to God [“is not God God of all the earth and everything in it His?”] are in the hands of the Lord as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. Notice He [God] turns it [the heart [Jesus’, those belonging to God [“is not God God of all the earth and everything in it His?”]] whithersoever he [he who? God] will. Where ever God wills to turn a mans heart they will go. Where is the freewill in that? Where ever He turns the heart of ANYTHING that belongs to Him they will go. No one can freewill/thwart the way God turns them to, including Jesus.
　

　

yrgo:
　
Always, AK4, I have understood the expression "all in all" to mean what a Webster's dictionary says about the phrase:

"something that represents all things regarded as having value, significance, or importance . . . "

To me, the expression "all in all" is irreducible and means "everything."

To you, apparently, "all in all" can be broken down into a singular "all" meaning "everything" and a plural "all."

You are right, of course, but using "all in all" in such a way is "something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind." (a)

If I am right how do you rebuttal with that? Lets use it your way “God will be everything in everything”. Does that change anything? How is that "something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."? If Peter and Paul was inspired to write the words of God is that not something that came to His mind? Let alone the hundreds of other scriptures saying the same thing. God says Hes not willing/wishing/desiring/wanting [basically Hes not going to let it happen] ANY [now when it says any does that leave ANYbody out? No] should perish, but that ALL [all this coming from the thought/mind of God? Seems as if it “did enter My [Gods] mind”] come to the knowledge of the truth [who is the Truth? He is]. So if ALL will come to the Truth then God will be all in all or everything in everything.


Come to think of it, "the LORD" (b) said as much to "the people of Judah" (b) who had "done evil in his eyes." (b)

The "LORD Almighty, the God of Israel" (c), had told the people, "Obey me, and . . . Walk in all the ways I command you . . . " (d). " . . . Reform your ways and your actions . . . " (e)

"But they did not listen or pay attention," says the LORD; "instead, [AK4,] they [exercised their FREE WILL and] followed the STUBBORN INCLINATIONS OF THEIR EVIL HEARTS." (f)

IS THAT NOT SO?


Not by their freewill. Who was the one you gave them their hearts in the first place.

De 5:29 - O that there were such an heart in them,

Is not God the one who gave them a heart in the first place? Couldn’t God have given them a heart of flesh at anytime to replace their heart of stone? You say “yeah but God didn’t want to interfere with their freewill”. If that is so then WHY in the future God WILL interfere and GIVE them a heart of flesh? You see God MADE them that way for a reason. They couldn’t have done anything different than what they did because God purposed it that way. They couldnt by a freewill choose NOT TO followed their STUBBORN INCLINATIONS OF THEIR EVIL HEARTS." If they could them they themselves have a power that is more powerful than God Himself and would have been able to thwart what God had planned/purposed. And then you can have an answer to this conundrum

Can God create a rock too big that He cant lift it? Or lets change the words a little

Did God create a freewill, a power that even He cant control?

Sounds silly doesn’t it?

　
yrgo:
　
"kings"?
You mean "priests" (a), don't you?
　
Kings, priests, lords, saviours, saints, servants, brothers, sisters etc etc　
　
Also I will like to add that when I put something I all caps its only for emphasis, nothing more. Some feel I am upset or yelling or something when I do this. I will be away from my cpu until Jan 4 so take your time with your rebuttal. Happy Holidays

 

[yrgo]

Greetings, AK4 (on or before Jan 4)!


　
yrgo (#1088):

Although believing that Proverbs 21.1 was written with one particular king in mind and either by that selfsame king or one of his subjects, yrgo finds that the language of Proverbs 21.1 "fits" Jesus perfectly (a) and may be applied as well to "people belonging to God" (b), that is to say, to persons who, like Jesus (c), have exercised their FREE WILL (d) in such a way that they, too, are experiencing "the life that is truly life." (e)

(a) Heb 10.7 + Lk 22.42
(b) 1Pe 2.9, NIV
(c) Heb 1.9
(d) Ro 6.17-18; 8.12,5,13; 6.12-13
(e) 1Ti 6.19, NIV; cf. Ro 8.6 (Prov 21.1)


　
AK4 (#1089):

How do you get that they are excersing a freewill? . . .


　
yrgo:

" 16 Jesus answered, ' . . . 17 If anyone CHOOSES to do God's will . . . '" (a)

CHOOSING to do God's will instead of one's own is an exercise of FREE WILL.

CHOOSING to do God's will OUT OF LOVE is definitely the act of a MORAL AGENT.

Jesus said, " . . . the world must learn that I love the Father and . . . do exactly what my Father has commanded me . . . " (b), then prayed soon afterwards, " . . . not my will, but yours be done." (c)

Jesus had FREE WILL and exercised it when he elected to endure the cross, "despising and ignoring the shame." (d)

The CHOICE as to whose will would be done that night was clearly Jesus' to make, NOT THE FATHER'S.

One word from Jesus, and the Father would "at once" (e) have put at Jesus' "disposal more than twelve legions of angels." (e)

Obviously, the Father was patiently standing by, as it were, and awaiting JESUS' DECISION.

(a) Jn 7.16-17, modified NIV
(b) Jn 14.31, NIV
(c) Lk 22.42
(d) Heb 12.2, AMP
(e) Mt 26.53, NIV

　
　
yrgo (#1088):

" . . . 'the LORD' (b) said . . . 'the people of Judah' (b) . . . had "done evil . . . " (b)

The 'LORD Almighty, the God of Israel' (c), had told the people, 'Obey me, and . . . ' (d) ' . . . Reform your ways and your actions . . . ' (e)

'But they did not listen or pay attention,' says the LORD; 'instead . . . they [exercised their FREE WILL and] followed the STUBBORN INCLINATIONS OF THEIR EVIL HEARTS.'" (f)

(b) Jer 7.30, NIV
(c) Jer 7.21, NIV
(d) Jer 7.23, NIV
(e) Jer 7.3, NIV
(f) Jer 7.24, modified NIV



AK4 (#1089):

Is not God the one who gave them a heart in the first place? Couldn’t God have given them a heart of flesh at anytime to replace their heart of stone? You say "yeah but God didn’t want to interfere with their freewill". If that is so then WHY in the future God WILL interfere and GIVE them a heart of flesh?


　
yrgo:

Every human being is born with a "heart of flesh." (a)

This has always been the case.

A "heart of stone" (a) is merely a "heart of flesh" which has been "hardened by sin's deceitfulness." (b)

Always, there are people with hearts of stone; always, there are people with hearts of flesh.

During the idolatrous days in which the prophet Elijah lived, there were "seven thousand in Israel . . . whose knees" had "not bowed down to Baal and . . . whose mouths" had "not kissed him."

(a) Eze 36.26
(b) Heb 3.13
(c) 1Ki 19.18



　
AK4 (#1089):

" . . . You see God MADE them that way for a reason. They couldn’t have done anything different than what they did because God purposed it that way. They couldnt by a freewill choose NOT TO followed their STUBBORN INCLINATIONS OF THEIR EVIL HEARTS.' . . . "


　
yrgo:

Wrong.

Whether a person has a "heart of flesh" or a "heart of stone," he or she is FREE to answer for himself or herself the eternal question "WHAT IS IMPORTANT?" (a)

For example, in the first two chapters of the Book of Job, has Satan any doubts about Job's PERFECT FREEDOM to curse God to his face (b)?

(a) Post 1068
(b) Job 1.11; 2.5

　
　
All the best to you, AK4!

 

[AK4]

Hello yrgo

yrgo (#1088):

Although believing that Proverbs 21.1 was written with one particular king in mind and either by that selfsame king or one of his subjects, yrgo finds that the language of Proverbs 21.1 "fits" Jesus perfectly (a) and may be applied as well to "people belonging to God" (b), that is to say, to persons who, like Jesus (c), have exercised their FREE WILL (d) in such a way that they, too, are experiencing "the life that is truly life." (e)


Lets think about this rationally or as God told them back then “let us reason together”. If they, excluding Jesus, are experiencing "the life that is truly life" and they are still not perfect and they still sin [“anyone who says they are without sin is a liar and the truth is not in them” 1John 1:10], are they truly living the life that is truly life? While excersing their “freewill” that still sins and far from perfect one cannot be living a life that is truly life. Noone has experienced this life yet, not till the first resurrection.

Lets go further with this. Those who are to the elect are to destined to a life in this age of extreme trials and tribulations, a life of suffering, pain etc etc and yet this is supposed to be the life that is truly life? Now again “let us reason together” and think about this and this illusion of “the greatest gift given to mankind called freewill”.


　
yrgo:

" 16 Jesus answered, ' . . . 17 If anyone CHOOSES to do God's will . . . '" (a)

CHOOSING to do God's will instead of one's own is an exercise of FREE WILL.

CHOOSING to do God's will OUT OF LOVE is definitely the act of a MORAL AGENT.

Jesus said, " . . . the world must learn that I love the Father and . . . do exactly what my Father has commanded me . . . " (b), then prayed soon afterwards, " . . . not my will, but yours be done." (c)

Jesus had FREE WILL and exercised it when he elected to endure the cross, "despising and ignoring the shame." (d)

The CHOICE as to whose will would be done that night was clearly Jesus' to make, NOT THE FATHER'S.

One word from Jesus, and the Father would "at once" (e) have put at Jesus' "disposal more than twelve legions of angels." (e)

Obviously, the Father was patiently standing by, as it were, and awaiting JESUS' DECISION.


　
　
yrgo (#1088):

" . . . 'the LORD' (b) said . . . 'the people of Judah' (b) . . . had "done evil . . . " (b)

The 'LORD Almighty, the God of Israel' (c), had told the people, 'Obey me, and . . . ' (d) ' . . . Reform your ways and your actions . . . ' (e)

'But they did not listen or pay attention,' says the LORD; 'instead . . . they [exercised their FREE WILL and] followed the STUBBORN INCLINATIONS OF THEIR EVIL HEARTS.'" (f)


Okay I could answer all these individually, but I will get right to the source. Freewill and choice are not the same thing. To say freewill is choice is to say freewill is free choice. Nobody has a free choice. Jesus didn’t even have free choice. To say you have an ability to choose something that is free from anything, any influence, divine, demonic, or human is what freewill/free choice is. As for Jesus, show me ANY verse or passage that shows His will, His choices were free from the Fathers influence. As for us humans, show me ANY verse that shows we can make a choice that is free from any influence, divine, demonic or even free from anything humanly or natural (nature) that doesn’t influence our thoughts, actions and non actions, heredity, instinct, etc etc.

Yes we all have the ability to choose and all the verses you quoted above may show the ability to choose, none I bet would show that any that was free from some kind of influence. Take for instance faith (and this you should see how we are not FREE moral agents). All agree faith is ONLY GIVEN from God and only by faith can one obey God and keep His commands. So what does that do to the ancient Israelites when God gave them “a choice” to follow Him and live? If God is responsible for giving faith so one can do His will and for as it is written “oh that was such a heart in them to follow all My commands”(paraphrased), did the Israelites really have a choice, let alone a free choice? God, who is the creator of all things, didn’t create them with a heart “that they should follow all My commands” “took away” this “free” choice/”free”will by not giving them faith and a heart that “would do all My will”.

God made man totally dependent on Him, from faith to life even down to every choice we make.


yrgo:

Every human being is born with a "heart of flesh." (a)

This has always been the case.

A "heart of stone" (a) is merely a "heart of flesh" which has been "hardened by sin's deceitfulness." (b)

Always, there are people with hearts of stone; always, there are people with hearts of flesh.

During the idolatrous days in which the prophet Elijah lived, there were "seven thousand in Israel . . . whose knees" had "not bowed down to Baal and . . . whose mouths" had "not kissed him."

(a) Eze 36.26
(b) Heb 3.13
(c) 1Ki 19.18

“Heart of flesh” and “heart of stone” are not used in literal terms when God said these things. Theyre spiritual. So no, not every human being is born with a heart of flesh—a heart able to do ALL He commands. Only one who God has given this to will have this. And notice carefully these words in this verse

1Ki 19:18 - Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Notice it was God who “left Himself” seven thousand. He [God] kept them from bowing to baal. They didn’t do this on their own.


yrgo:

Wrong.

Whether a person has a "heart of flesh" or a "heart of stone," he or she is FREE to answer for himself or herself the eternal question "WHAT IS IMPORTANT?" (a)

“Free to answer”. Sounds good, but lets break that down to get to the truth. God controls everything through circumstances. God will place or have already put you through circumstances where you will choose to do what it is He wants you to do. You can and will give an answer. You are not free to not give any answer. If God DEMANDS an answer from you or someone, are they free not to answer? Well if you believe in freewill then this has to be a “yes”. Do you really think you someone can choose not to answer God when He demands them to? When God told Job to “gird up your loins and answer me” do you think Job could have had the freewill to choose not to answer? Is freewill the rock that God made so big that He cant lift it? Let me rephrase that---did God create freewill so strong that even He cant control it?

I know what most people will say to this—“no He just chooses not to”. So okay then you guys basically say God created a rock so big that even though He could lift it, He wont. Or He created the rock of freewill so evil [or big—you cant deny that if man had a freewill then its evil because “all have sinned” and “there is none good”] that He cant fix it or even worse He wont fix it. Take your pick.

For example, in the first two chapters of the Book of Job, has Satan any doubts about Job's PERFECT FREEDOM to curse God to his face (b)?



Free to answer yes but no. If you have a heart of flesh, meaning a heart that is influenced to follow God, Gods spirit in you will influence you to answer “what is important” rightly. If you have a heart of stone, which all mankind has been given at birth, then you cant answer rightly.
　

 

[AK4]

You still there yrgo? Anyone?