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Do you want the Ukrainian War to end today?

Do you want the war to end today?

  • Yes, I want the war to end today, no matter who wins it

    Votes: 12 34.3%
  • No, I want the war to end when Russia is defeated.

    Votes: 21 60.0%
  • No, I want the war to end when Ukraine is defeated

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • No, I want the war to continue and evolve into a world war.

    Votes: 1 2.9%

  • Total voters
    35

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Honestly, I am not supposed to convince you.

False. Actually that's the point, it's a debate forum

You are entitled to your opinion...

True

but I am an European...

True

I speak 5 European languages,

I have no idea if you do so can't comment but I have no reason to doubt it even though I fail to see the relevance.

and I know the history of my continent.

False, you obviously don't. A quick google search of your claim of no wars in Europe for 80 years will show that.

So does God.
God knows the truth.
;)

An extraordinary claim that will require extraordinary evidence.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Frankly, I place most of the blame for that on the US and the West. During the Cold War, NATO's reason for being was to protect western Europe from the Warsaw Pact. Then in 1990, the Warsaw Pact disbanded. But NATO was determined to continue on, despite having became an alliance without a purpose. There was lots of talk about defending Europe from external threats, but the only halfway plausible conventional military threat was Russia. So if only out of habit, NATO remained an anti-Russian alliance.

You are right, but the former Warsaw Pact nations were not in the habit of being members of NATO. Yet they all rushed to join NATO, as did the former Soviet Socialist Republics of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. Did they also believe that Russia posed a military threat to them? And why have Finland and Sweden, formerly non-NATO countries, just recently joined NATO? What convinced them that Russia posed a military threat to their security? Any ideas?

And that in turn played into the hands of the old style cold warriors in the Kremlin. NATO expanded into the former Warsaw Pact countries of eastern Europe. It even swallowed the former Soviet Baltic republics. Those moves were naturally seen as hostile in Moscow. But for 25 years, Russia tolerated it.

NATO did not expand into those countries. Those countries expanded into NATO and the EU by their own choice. Russia itself signed an agreement to respect Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal--an agreement that Russia violated by invading Ukraine in 2014. Which did nothing to lessen the perception in former Warsaw Pact nations that it had been a good idea to join NATO.

Then in 2014, Russia's enemies started moving into Ukraine. Due to deep historical and ethnic ties, this was totally intolerable to Russia. Western deep state agents helped engineer a coup in Kyiv that overthrew a popularly elected pro-Russian president. Anti-Russian elements were place in power by mob action in the streets. So Russian hard liners replied by a bloodless annexation of Crimea.

What enemies "started moving into Ukraine"? Who did you have in mind? No Western "agents" were involved in the Maidan revolt, but US diplomats tried to mediate between protesters and the Yanukovych government before the government started to use violence to clear the protesters. Yanukovych was never very popular, having lost his first bid for election after election rigging was discovered. That triggered a nationwide protest against Yanukovych's victory called the Orange Revolution in 2004. He was easily defeated in a runoff, but Yanukovych narrowly won his second bid in 2010. When he began trying to move Ukraine away from Western Europe and integrate more closely with Russia, the Maidan protesters assembled in Kyiv again. This was all documented thoroughly in the press. You can find an excellent documentary record of it on Youtube: Winter on Fire.


Then for years, the Russians were quite explicit that any NATO expansion into Ukraine would mean war. It was never a secret. But the US and Europe believed that it was just bluster and refused to back off, and in 2022 the Ukraine War started and continues today as kind of a World War I style stalemated war of attrition, as hundreds of thousands of young men are killed and maimed and the world lurches ever closer to nuclear war.

Russian threats were taken seriously, and that is why Ukraine was never admitted into NATO. It still isn't in NATO, but, thanks to this illegal, unprovoked invasion, it almost certainly will be admitted. The event that triggered the Russian invasion was the Maidan revolution, which posed no threat at all to Russia. Russia invaded in the aftermath of Yanukovych's ouster, although they pretended that they weren't sending troops into Ukraine until it became obvious to everyone that they were doing just that.


Yet even today, many politicians in both the US and Europe still demand that Ukraine fight until Russia is "defeated". But what would a Russian defeat look like? Regime change in Moscow? That would most likely result in even more hardline nationalists taking power. Destruction of the Russian military or even breakup of Russia? But does much smaller Ukraine, even serving as expendable proxies for the US, really have the ability to achieve that? And how would turning the Russian landmass into a power vacuum serve any but Chinese interests?

The US and EU never controlled events in Ukraine in any way, shape, or form. The Maidan revolt caught everyone by surprise, especially Putin. Nobody is urging Ukraine to fight Russia. Ukrainians are the ones refusing to surrender, not NATO. The US had even offered to get Zelensky safely out of the country when Russia broke the truce in 2022 and renewed its invasion. Zelensky refused, and the Ukrainian military surprised everyone by stopping the invasion almost in its tracks and repelling an attack on Kyiv itself. Ukraine could end the war by surrendering, but it refuses to do so. Putin could end the war by withdrawing Russian troops from Ukraine, but he refuses to do so. The only possible solution is a negotiated peace, but that cannot be done with Putin, because he is completely untrustworthy.

Finally, does anyone really believe that Russia will let itself be defeated without resorting to nuclear weapons?

They might still resort to tactical nukes, but most analysts seem to think that he won't. He probably would have used them already, if he were going to, because his military has been suffering defeats and is barely holding onto the territory that it has gained.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Is this an admission you were wrong?
No, it isn't.
It's just that since my country is a founder of the EU...
I have always meant the EU as synonym of Europe.

:)
But since the most important countries in Europe are in the EU...it was obvious I meant them.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think the average Ameristanian knows more than you do.
So dissing us as ignorant doesn't fly.
First of all... I have never said Americans are ignorant.

;)

I have just said that after the end of the Cold War, the EU and Russia became friends and allies, whereas Washington DC continued the Cold War in its own warlike mind... by refusing any kind of alliance with Moscow.

The friendship between EU and Russia is demonstrated by the two gas pipelines...Nordstream1 and 2.

These are facts.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
To hide behind a claim that didn't use
that particular word doesn't excuse
making the claim.

With all due respect but this one below is a misrepresentation of us Europeans. We need no babysitter because we have been at peace for 80 years, so it's us who are supposed to teach others peace. Not the other way around.


If circumstances change such that Eurostan
sees it that way, they USA likely would too.

Because Europe has shown itself unable to
cope with threats that are global in nature.
It even causes such threats at times. So USA
must babysit them.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
To hide behind a claim that didn't use
that particular word doesn't excuse
making the claim.
I have always wondered this:
why do the American citizens always defend their own institutions, even if they are disrespected, jailed without fair trial, persecuted (Patriot Act) by them?
It's a mystery to me...honestly.

I side with the victims, not with the perpetrators.
When I mean US, I don't mean the American citizens...who are the victims here.
;)
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
No, it isn't.
It's just that since my country is a founder of the EU...
I have always meant the EU as synonym of Europe.

It should be. See Greece and Hungary from my previous response. I can look up more if you like or you could take advantage of google.


But since the most important countries in Europe are in the EU...it was obvious I meant them.

Not obvious at all, you even mentioned Europe as a continent and the EU isn't 80 years old. I do know my European history better than you however mind reading is not in my skill set.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
With all due respect but this one below is a misrepresentation of us Europeans. We need no babysitter because we have been at peace for 80 years, so it's us who are supposed to teach others peace. Not the other way around.

Incorrect. Simply google "wars in Europe post WW2"
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that the 80 years of peace in Europe demonstrate that it's something doable.

But it took a lot of money and resources, such as the implementation of the Marshall Plan, the formation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, activist diplomacy by the U.S. throughout Europe (and quite probably some covert intel operations), constant vigilance at the Berlin Wall and along the Iron Curtain, and a hugely bloated U.S. military budget to maintain bases and large numbers of troops and equipment in Europe. It wasn't as if it "just happened," as the U.S. was ostensibly obligated to maintain a constant, active presence in Europe to keep the peace.

Since NATO was in Western Europe and Eastern Europe was the Warsaw Pact, war in Europe would have been decided in either Washington or Moscow, and since neither power wanted another world war, peace was maintained.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
why do the American citizens always defend their own institutions....
Is this mischief, or do you not pay attention
to our continual criticism of our institutions,
eg, government, policing, courts, SCOTUS.
We carp about them even more than Italians
bow & scrape before Putin.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
But it took a lot of money and resources, such as the implementation of the Marshall Plan, the formation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, activist diplomacy by the U.S. throughout Europe (and quite probably some covert intel operations), constant vigilance at the Berlin Wall and along the Iron Curtain, and a hugely bloated U.S. military budget to maintain bases and large numbers of troops and equipment in Europe. It wasn't as if it "just happened," as the U.S. was ostensibly obligated to maintain a constant, active presence in Europe to keep the peace.
The United States, nevertheless, waged autonomous wars that had nothing to do with the NATO. Like the Vietnam War, for example.
I still struggle to understand what that war was for.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I notice that Europe isn't all that peaceful these days.
Will the strife in the eastern part soon infect the western part?

If the US stops funding Zelenskyy, we will have peace.
Because he would finally order a ceasefire.
So peace is up to the US. :)
 
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