Doctrinal differences

[Merlin]

[in my religion] I view organisational structure as the most important thing.

WOW. Quite a staggering statement about a faith system.

I will bet God is pleased about that. And maybe the other guy as well!

 

[Katzpur]

Are there really any doctrinal differences between any of the denominations?

You've got to be kidding?

Ifwe ignore whether we believe in this particular prophet or a different prophet, whether we accept this particular head of the church, or a different head of the Church. If we ignore whether women should preach or they should be subservient, and whether there is a Trinity or there isn't etc, etc

Are there any real fundamental differences in our belief in God, even between Christians and Muslims and Jews, let alone the dozens of different Christian denominations.

Well, if we ignore all our differences, I guess there really aren't any.

If you believe there are, why don't you list the five main ways in which your faith system differs from everybody else's

Okay, I'm relatively certain that some other Latter-day Saint has responded to this question, but I'm not going to read any of the answers until I give you mine. It will be interesting to me to see how closely we agree on what the main differences are.

1. The nature of God: We believe in three divine beings who share the title of "God," and who are one in heart, mind, will and purpose. They are God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. We do not see them as together comprising a single "substance."

2. Man's relationship to God: We believe that we are literally the sons and daughters of God. We are created in His literal, physical image. It has been said by our prophets that we are "gods in embryo." In other words, He has given us the potential to eventually become as He is.

3. The eternal nature of... well, just about everything: We believe that God created our spirits from the "intelligences" (meaning "light and truth") that were co-eternal with Him. We believe that we existed in spirit form prior to our birth and lived for millenia in His presence. We believe that there is nothing which He either created or authorized (including marriage) that will be lost in the eternities to come.

4. We believe that the Heavens are not sealed and that God communicates in this day and age with prophets which he has personally chosen, prophets which are every bit as "real" as Moses, Abraham and Isaiah. While we believe the Bible to be the word of God, we do not believe it to be the sole record of His communication with His children. In addition to the words He speaks to His living prophets, we also believe in ancient writings other than the Bible -- most notably The Book of Mormon.

5. We believe that the apostasy prophesied by Paul did, in fact, take place, and that the priesthood authority given by Christ to His Apostles was taken from the earth during the years shortly after their deaths. We also believe that the "restitution of all things," has also taken place, again as was prophesied anciently. We believe that the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth today and exists within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[Katzpur]

This looks like an interesting discussion, but I'm not sure I can join in as we UUs have no dogma... so there you go.

Well, darn! You're just no fun at all!

 

[Katzpur]

WOW. Quite a staggering statement about a faith system.

I will bet God is pleased about that. And maybe the other guy as well!

I think I'm going to ask that you explain what you mean before I jump to the conclusion that it was an insult.

 

[Dentonz]

Sorry, what I meant it is it cannot be important to God whether somebody believes that the Pope is head of the church or the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the church. This doesn't change fundamental doctrine.

Unless you think the name of the 'boss of the organisation' is doctrinal

If you don't believe Jesus is the head of the church, then you are not in the church.

 

[Katzpur]

If you don't believe Jesus is the head of the church, then you are not in the church.

Dentonz,
I agree with you to the extent that "the Church" is none other than "Jesus' Church." Of course He would be its Head. On the other hand, Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. In effect, He made Him the head of the Church here on earth. Peter had the authority to direct the affairs of Jesus' Church in His absence. So while I know where you're coming from, I don't believe that Jesus would have left His earthly Church without an "acting Head" so to speak.

 

[Merlin]

I think I'm going to ask that you explain what you mean before I jump to the conclusion that it was an insult.

First of all, it was a genuine comment not an insult. I don't do insult to people's faith systems.

This thread is to examine genuine doctrinal differences between the various denominations, and hopefully between various religions because I would like the Moslems and Jews to join in. When pressed, you said the most important thing about your faith is the structure; and I found that quite amazing.

It seemed to me to be difficult to reconcile that a devout Christian would claim that his or her allegiance to a particular hierarchical earthly authority chain was more important than their devotion to God. This was why I expressed my surprise. I still do not think my surprise was unreasonable.

It would be the same as somebody saying; "the most important thing about my Roman Catholic faith and Christian beliefs is my allegiance to the Pope". It would not be a credible statement I believe.

Yes, I know from other responses that you believe God's authority on earth was handed to your denomination. I can't question that, it might be true. There are others who feel exactly the same way about their own head of the Church or founding prophet. Nobody will know who is correct until they die. It would never cross my mind to question any denomination on this point because I do not know.

I do know that when asked, Jesus Christ told us the two most important laws. And they were nothing to do with earthly organisations. Because Jesus told me which were the two most important things, I was surprised that you claimed that 'your organisation' was the most important, that is all.

In Matthew 22 he said:

37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.

38 This is the greatest and first commandment.

39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

 

[Merlin]

You've got to be kidding?

Well, if we ignore all our differences, I guess there really aren't any.

Okay, I'm relatively certain that some other Latter-day Saint has responded to this question, but I'm not going to read any of the answers until I give you mine. It will be interesting to me to see how closely we agree on what the main differences are.

1. The nature of God: We believe in three divine beings who share the title of "God," and who are one in heart, mind, will and purpose. They are God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. We do not see them as together comprising a single "substance."

2. Man's relationship to God: We believe that we are literally the sons and daughters of God. We are created in His literal, physical image. It has been said by our prophets that we are "gods in embryo." In other words, He has given us the potential to eventually become as He is.

3. The eternal nature of... well, just about everything: We believe that God created our spirits from the "intelligences" (meaning "light and truth") that were co-eternal with Him. We believe that we existed in spirit form prior to our birth and lived for millenia in His presence. We believe that there is nothing which He either created or authorized (including marriage) that will be lost in the eternities to come.

4. We believe that the Heavens are not sealed and that God communicates in this day and age with prophets which he has personally chosen, prophets which are every bit as "real" as Moses, Abraham and Isaiah. While we believe the Bible to be the word of God, we do not believe it to be the sole record of His communication with His children. In addition to the words He speaks to His living prophets, we also believe in ancient writings other than the Bible -- most notably The Book of Mormon.

5. We believe that the apostasy prophesied by Paul did, in fact, take place, and that the priesthood authority given by Christ to His Apostles was taken from the earth during the years shortly after their deaths. We also believe that the "restitution of all things," has also taken place, again as was prophesied anciently. We believe that the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth today and exists within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This is by far the best answer so far within this thread. Apart from item 5 above, the others are genuine doctrinal differences between you and almost every other group because it means that you are not monotheistic.

 

[Malus 12:9]

[in my religion] I view organisational structure as the most important thing.
Judging by what you say about my MSN avatars, AL, I can't see that theory being correct LOL

 

[Aqualung]

First of all, it was a genuine comment not an insult. I don't do insult to people's faith systems.

This thread is to examine genuine doctrinal differences between the various denominations, and hopefully between various religions because I would like the Moslems and Jews to join in. When pressed, you said the most important thing about your faith is the structure; and I found that quite amazing.

That was me, not Katzpur, that said it. And I don't know if I should have worded it like that, as being the most important. But it's definitely way, way up there.

It seemed to me to be difficult to reconcile that a devout Christian would claim that his or her allegiance to a particular hierarchical earthly authority chain was more important than their devotion to God. This was why I expressed my surprise. I still do not think my surprise was unreasonable.

Yes, sorry again. Definitely god is the most important thing here. But I think it is sumamente important that there be a hierarchical authority (except it's not earthly authority - it comes from Christ himslelf) that we follow.

Yes, I know from other responses that you believe God's authority on earth was handed to your denomination. I can't question that, it might be true. There are others who feel exactly the same way about their own head of the Church or founding prophet. Nobody will know who is correct until they die. It would never cross my mind to question any denomination on this point because I do not know.

Which is why I incorrectly described it as the most important thing. Of course devotion to God is the most importatnt, but with that devotion you definitely have to follow his commandments, and one of the things he wants us to do it be a part of his church, the one that has his authority, not earthly authorities, which I find very importatn.

I do know that when asked, Jesus Christ told us the two most important laws. And they were nothing to do with earthly organisations. Because Jesus told me which were the two most important things, I was surprised that you claimed that 'your organisation' was the most important, that is all.

Once again, I appologize for being unclear. I was trying to talk about the most important thing other than the obvious "christian" stuff like love your neighbor and love your saviour. Sorry.

 

[Aqualung]

[in my religion] I view organisational structure as the most important thing.
Judging by what you say about my MSN avatars, AL, I can't see that theory being correct LOL

hehehe. I'm glad to see you have a different one though. At least here, anyway.

 

[Katzpur]

Apart from item 5 above, the others are genuine doctrinal differences between you and almost every other group because it means that you are not monotheistic.

Well, that's an interesting comment. First of all, only items 1 and 2 even apply to your premise. Numbers 3 through 5 don't. As far as whether we can be considered monothestic, I think the answer is all in how you define the term. As any Muslim on this forum if Christians of any denomination are monothestic and he'll tell you, "Absolutely not!" He'll then point you to the mainstream Christian belief that "the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God." And he'll have a valid point.

 

[Katzpur]

First of all, it was a genuine comment not an insult. I don't do insult to people's faith systems.

That has been my experience in talking to you, and that's why I didn’t jump to any conclusions.

This thread is to examine genuine doctrinal differences between the various denominations, and hopefully between various religions because I would like the Moslems and Jews to join in. When pressed, you said the most important thing about your faith is the structure; and I found that quite amazing.

It seemed to me to be difficult to reconcile that a devout Christian would claim that his or her allegiance to a particular hierarchical earthly authority chain was more important than their devotion to God. This was why I expressed my surprise. I still do not think my surprise was unreasonable.

It would be the same as somebody saying; "the most important thing about my Roman Catholic faith and Christian beliefs is my allegiance to the Pope". It would not be a credible statement I believe.

I know that your comments on this issue are addressed primarily to Aqualung, but I’m just going to throw my two cents worth in anyway. In thinking about it, I can understand your surprise, so I’d like to explain.

To me, the validity of any Christian denomination’s claim to be “Jesus Christ’s Church,” would have to be substantiated on authority. Notwithstanding doctrinal differences, only one denomination could conceivably be operating under the same authority Jesus Christ personally gave to Peter. The scriptures are clear in stating that He established His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. And I don’t know about you, but I have yet to see any structure that was able to continue to stand when its foundation was removed. So, it’s not the fact that we see this hierarchy as such an important part of the Church that sets us apart from the rest of Christianity. It’s the fact that we don’t believe that Jesus Christ’s Church (i.e. the one He personally recognizes as His) could exist without the hierarchy He personally established.

I do know that when asked, Jesus Christ told us the two most important laws. And they were nothing to do with earthly organisations. Because Jesus told me which were the two most important things, I was surprised that you claimed that 'your organisation' was the most important, that is all.

Remember, though, that the point of your thread was to explore the differences between the various denominations. Had you asked which of Jesus’ teachings my denominations believed to be the most important, I would have – without hesitation – said that we love God and each other. But had I said that, I wouldn’t have been answering your question.

 

[Merlin]

only one denomination could conceivably be operating under the same authority Jesus Christ personally gave to Peter.

Do you mean Roman Catholic or Orthodox?

k

 

[Merlin]

Well, that's an interesting comment. First of all, only items 1 and 2 even apply to your premise. Numbers 3 through 5 don't. As far as whether we can be considered monothestic, I think the answer is all in how you define the term. As any Muslim on this forum if Christians of any denomination are monothestic and he'll tell you, "Absolutely not!" He'll then point you to the mainstream Christian belief that "the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God." And he'll have a valid point.

True, but the convoluted trinity thing attempts to get round this. It was a surprise to me that there were millions (billions?) of Gods. A bit like the Hindus.

 

[Dentonz]

Dentonz,
I agree with you to the extent that "the Church" is none other than "Jesus' Church." Of course He would be its Head. On the other hand, Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. In effect, He made Him the head of the Church here on earth. Peter had the authority to direct the affairs of Jesus' Church in His absence. So while I know where you're coming from, I don't believe that Jesus would have left His earthly Church without an "acting Head" so to speak.

Eph 5:23 "......Christ is the head of the church..."
Col 1:18 " And he is the head of the body, the church..."
Now for a doctrinal difference:
Matt 16: 18 "And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter (petros); and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. " 19 " And I will give unto thee (his disciples) the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth will be bound in heaven and loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Explain: Jesus saying to Peter you are petros. A stone, a piece of the rock, one of many. Then, pointing to himself, upon this petra (literally 'the rock' or the rock solid foundation) I will build my church (body). Jesus told the scribes he would tear down this temple and build it back in three days.... get the picture. You have to start with a solid cornerstone. Then he turned to his disciples and said I will give you the keys to the kingdom. What are the keys to the kingdom? How do you enter into the kingdom?
Through the blood of Jesus. The foundation (I wonder why it's called that) of our faith, is that Jesus laid his life down for us and rose again so that we might can be saved from the wages of our sin. Jesus as the son of God became the perfect sacrifice for us.
The keys to the kingdom is the power God gives us through the authority in Jesus' name. Jesus is the foundation of our faith; not Peter.

 

[Dentonz]

To me, the validity of any Christian denomination’s claim to be “Jesus Christ’s Church,” would have to be substantiated on authority. Notwithstanding doctrinal differences, only one denomination could conceivably be operating under the same authority Jesus Christ personally gave to Peter. The scriptures are clear in stating that He established His Church on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles. And I don’t know about you, but I have yet to see any structure that was able to continue to stand when its foundation was removed. So, it’s not the fact that we see this hierarchy as such an important part of the Church that sets us apart from the rest of Christianity. It’s the fact that we don’t believe that Jesus Christ’s Church (i.e. the one He personally recognizes as His) could exist without the hierarchy He personally established.

When you become a child of God you have the authority to use the power of the name of Jesus. The power that Jesus gave Peter and the apostles, was sent to all of us on the day of pentecost. The power of the Holy Spirit is alive today just as much as it was back then. The foudation of the church is the blood of Jesus. And its foundation has not been removed. It still stands. If you don't believe that and you believe your a christian, then you need to get out and find you a church where the power of God is still alive.
People need to understand that we can't rely on man. We all need to seek God's presence and base your trust on him, not on the tradition of man.
All I'm trying to say to you Christians out there is: WAKE UP!! There is still power in the name of Jesus.

 

[Merlin]

When you become a child of God you have the authority to use the power of the name of Jesus. The power that Jesus gave Peter and the apostles, was sent to all of us on the day of pentecost. The power of the Holy Spirit is alive today just as much as it was back then. The foudation of the church is the blood of Jesus. And its foundation has not been removed. It still stands. If you don't believe that and you believe your a christian, then you need to get out and find you a church where the power of God is still alive.
People need to understand that we can't rely on man. We all need to seek God's presence and base your trust on him, not on the tradition of man.
All I'm trying to say to you Christians out there is: WAKE UP!! There is still power in the name of Jesus.

The power is in the name of God. Only when we accept that, will we stop arguing amongst the denominations. Each one is only trying to provide a route for people to find their way to God. They are not an end in themselves, any more than Jesus is. When we start to believe that the denominational differences are more important than the worship of God Himself, we are almost certainly doing the opposite of what we intend.

 

[Merlin]

Well, that's an interesting comment. First of all, only items 1 and 2 even apply to your premise. Numbers 3 through 5 don't. As far as whether we can be considered monothestic, I think the answer is all in how you define the term. As any Muslim on this forum if Christians of any denomination are monothestic and he'll tell you, "Absolutely not!" He'll then point you to the mainstream Christian belief that "the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God." And he'll have a valid point.

It is sometimes difficult to ask questions without these seeming to be criticisms. But this is such a fundamental point that I would like to elaborate upon it.

you said:

"1. We believe in three divine beings who share the title of "God," They are God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. We do not see them as together comprising a single "substance."

2. " In other words, He has given us the potential to eventually become as He is."

So, you definitely do not believe in ONE God. This has been such a fundamental tenet of Judaism and Christianity for the best part of 4000 years that I am amazed I have not heard this before about your Mormon tradition.

you have explained that you do not necessarily believe Jesus was celibate. You are happy to concede that Jesus may have had sexual relations. But this does not make you unique, there are other Christians with similar views.

But abandoning monotheism is something else.

 

[michel]

I think this is too subjective to be able to relate it to the 'labeled' sects of any basic Abrahamic Religion.


I personally believe in the Trinity, and whilst doig so, am still monotheistic (or should that actually be monodeist ?).........The minutea of whether Jesus was celibate, abstained from any sexual relations is really, in my book of no importance to my beliefs.