Doctrinal differences

[Merlin]

I personally believe in the Trinity, and whilst doig so, am still monotheistic (or should that actually be monodeist ?).........

The trinity is how people can be both monotheists and believe in 3 different beings.

Complicated though!

Without the trinity theory or an equivalent, you are no longer a monotheist.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you mean Roman Catholic or Orthodox?

k

I mean that there is only one potential "true Church" (meaning 100% accurate doctrinally and holding the proper authority). The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches claim this distinction as does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So far as I know, most Protestant Churches don't even care.

 

[Katzpur]

True, but the convoluted trinity thing attempts to get round this.

Attempted to, yes. But in my opinion, it was an unsuccessful attempt and did nothing but confuse the matter.

It was a surprise to me that there were millions (billions?) of Gods. A bit like the Hindus.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Katzpur]

Eph 5:23 "......Christ is the head of the church..."
Col 1:18 " And he is the head of the body, the church..."
Now for a doctrinal difference:
Matt 16: 18 "And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter (petros); and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. " 19 " And I will give unto thee (his disciples) the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth will be bound in heaven and loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Explain: Jesus saying to Peter you are petros. A stone, a piece of the rock, one of many. Then, pointing to himself, upon this petra (literally 'the rock' or the rock solid foundation) I will build my church (body). Jesus told the scribes he would tear down this temple and build it back in three days.... get the picture. You have to start with a solid cornerstone. Then he turned to his disciples and said I will give you the keys to the kingdom. What are the keys to the kingdom? How do you enter into the kingdom?
Through the blood of Jesus. The foundation (I wonder why it's called that) of our faith, is that Jesus laid his life down for us and rose again so that we might can be saved from the wages of our sin. Jesus as the son of God became the perfect sacrifice for us.
The keys to the kingdom is the power God gives us through the authority in Jesus' name. Jesus is the foundation of our faith; not Peter.

First off, I'm not sure you know who Jesus was "pointing to," since you weren't there. Second, I never said Peter was "the rock." Third, I believe that "the rock" was "the rock of revelation," the means by which Peter knew for a certainly who Jesus was. Fourth, "the Apostles and the Prophets" were, in fact, the foundation upon which He built His Church. He was the cornerstone (at least if you believe what the scriptures have to say on the subject).

 

[Katzpur]

Without the trinity theory or an equivalent, you are no longer a monotheist.

Well, if that's the case, there were a whole lot of polytheistic Christians prior to 325 A.D.

 

[michel]

The trinity is how people can be both monotheists and believe in 3 different beings.

Complicated though!

Without the trinity theory or an equivalent, you are no longer a monotheist.

No, that's the point - not three different beings; they are the three persona's of God. I was completely at sea about the concept of the Trinity until I came here, but for some reason, with help from my friends, it just clicked into place.

 

[Katzpur]

No, that's the point - not three different beings; they are the three persona's of God. I was completely at sea about the concept of the Trinity until I came here, but for some reason, with help from my friends, it just clicked into place.

Well, then maybe you can help it click into place for me. :bounce

 

[Katzpur]

The minutea of whether Jesus was celibate, abstained from any sexual relations is really, in my book of no importance to my beliefs.

I'll go along with that. If God had felt it was essential to our salvation that we know Jesus marital status, I'm sure He would have made sure to tell us one way or the other.

 

[Merlin]

Well, if that's the case, there were a whole lot of polytheistic Christians prior to 325 A.D.

Possibly so. It doesn't change the statement of fact. If there are three gods, then by my count that is more than one.

I am just beginning to absorb this new information, that is all. I had no idea there was a Christian denomination that was not monotheistic.

 

[Merlin]

If you don't believe Jesus is the head of the church, then you are not in the church.

We can agree it certainly isn't a man. Actually, God is the head of my church.

 

[Merlin]

I mean that there is only one potential "true Church" (meaning 100% accurate doctrinally and holding the proper authority). The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches claim this distinction as does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So far as I know, most Protestant Churches don't even care.

Although we all like to be part of the winning team, it is quite possible that God has provided many routes through to him, each one as valid as the other. Certainly, nobody has any evidence about which is which.

 

[Merlin]

No, that's the point - not three different beings; they are the three persona's of God. I was completely at sea about the concept of the Trinity until I came here, but for some reason, with help from my friends, it just clicked into place.

I suppose a discussion on the Trinity should be in its own thread. But it is difficult to go through the process of inseminating the human, the child being born, living on Earth as god's son, and then saying actually I'm not his son I am Him Himself.

In other words Jesus is either God or He is the son of God. God either gave up His son as a sacrifice, or gave up Himself.

The holy spirit, now, there's a whole new bundle of problems.

 

[Katzpur]

Possibly so. It doesn't change the statement of fact. If there are three gods, then by my count that is more than one.

I am just beginning to absorb this new information, that is all. I had no idea there was a Christian denomination that was not monotheistic.

Oh, I’m finally starting to get it! You’ve just got to word it correctly! You can say, “So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.” And you’re monotheistic provided you add, “And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.” Counting to three really isn't what it's all about, after all. It's the disclaimer that makes it all okay!

For your information, here’s what The Book of Mormon has to say:

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. (2 Nephi 31:21)

Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11:44)

And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one. (3 Nephi 11:27)

And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7)

So, apparently there really isn’t a Christian denomination that is not monotheistic. At least not mine!

 

[Katzpur]

Although we all like to be part of the winning team, it is quite possible that God has provided many routes through to him, each one as valid as the other. Certainly, nobody has any evidence about which is which.

And it's quite possible that, if these are all man-made routes, none of them is going to lead anyone back to Him. I'm sorry, but I don't see opposing doctrines as being "equally valid." In the Bible, we are told that there is to be "one Lord, one faith [and] one baptism." What does that mean to you?

Please don't interpret what I have just said as meaning that the Latter-day Saints believe we're going to be the only ones of God's children who will ultimately go to heaven. That could not be further from the truth. Our faith is probably the most universalist of all Christian denominations.

 

[chuck010342]

Are there really any doctrinal differences between any of the denominations?

if we ignore whether we believe in this particular prophet or a different prophet, whether we accept this particular head of the church, or a different head of the Church. If we ignore whether women should preach or they should be subservient, and whether there is a Trinity or there isn't etc, etc

Are there any real fundamental differences in our belief in God, even between Christians and Muslims and Jews, let alone the dozens of different Christian denominations.

If you believe there are, why don't you list the five main ways in which your faith system differs from everybody else's

OMG I am going to have a field day with you. Get ready for the Knockout

1. Sola scriptura (differs from Roman Catholics)
2. God is a Triune God (differs from Muslims)
3. God is seperate from the Universe but can Act within it (different from the Hindu faith)
4. God is real (different from Atheists)
5. Human beings cannot become gods some day (Different from Mormons)

 

[Katzpur]

We can agree it certainly isn't a man. Actually, God is the head of my church.

Well, I'll be darned! He's the head of my church, too!

 

[Merlin]

And it's quite possible that, if these are all man-made routes, none of them is going to lead anyone back to Him. I'm sorry, but I don't see opposing doctrines as being "equally valid." In the Bible, we are told that there is to be "one Lord, one faith [and] one baptism." What does that mean to you?

Please don't interpret what I have just said as meaning that the Latter-day Saints believe we're going to be the only ones of God's children who will ultimately go to heaven. That could not be further from the truth. Our faith is probably the most universalist of all Christian denominations.

I assume that means you don't think that your own denomination is man-made?

Remember, everybody believes that the particular piece of 'magic' that started their denomination is true, and that everybody else's is false. None of these 'happenings' are really believable, so you just have to go with the one with which you are most comfortable (or into which you were born).

"one Lord, one faith [and] one baptism." What does that mean to you?

It means that any denomination who believes in three gods (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) fails in the first two words.

in addition, your statement that everybody is a God and we all have the opportunity to be like God Himself. This could mean several billion gods.

 

[Merlin]

Oh, I’m finally starting to get it! You’ve just got to word it correctly! You can say, “So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.” And you’re monotheistic provided you add, “And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.” Counting to three really isn't what it's all about, after all. It's the disclaimer that makes it all okay!

For your information, here’s what The Book of Mormon has to say:

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. (2 Nephi 31:21)

Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11:44)

And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one. (3 Nephi 11:27)

And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7)

So, apparently there really isn’t a Christian denomination that is not monotheistic. At least not mine!

Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God

I agree. That is a perfect statement of belief in the Trinity. Yet I believe you deny believing in the Trinity, when your own gospel says exactly that?

Of course, it leaves you with all the same problems that everybody else has about a 'three in one' God. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son". Very difficult to give someone if that someone is yourself, etc. But then, you know all the difficulties with the Trinity.

 

[Merlin]

Well, I'll be darned! He's the head of my church, too!

Perhaps the difference is that I do not have the whole hierarchy of man-made structures between me and Him.

 

[Merlin]

I mean that there is only one potential "true Church" (meaning 100% accurate doctrinally and holding the proper authority). The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches claim this distinction as does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So far as I know, most Protestant Churches don't even care.

Clearly, I am not an expert in every Protestant church. In simple terms, what they did when they protested, was to argue that the then Catholic Church was more interested in the human hierarchy and the power of its priests and that people obeyed these human hierarchical rules than in trying to fulfil God's real purpose. So they set off and established much simpler churches, mostly without priests and bishops and other people who claimed they had a 'personal hotline' to God.

The whole point of these churches was to remove the barriers and the distance between the person and God. Sadly, only a few denominations have stayed true to this. The majority have allowed their priests to re-claim 'magic powers' and then have built huge hierarchies all over again (only this time claiming that they are the true churche). Your denomination is just one of these. There are lots of them.

So the denominations who meet in each other's homes, or in a simple meeting house, and pray together and discuss the Scriptures as equals, without needing some special so-called 'empowered leader' have as much right (if not more right) to claim they are the closest church to God.