Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[muhammad_isa]

All rape, including rape done by a spouse is and should be investigated and prosecuted if evidence such as witness testimony, defensive wounds, etc can be established.

I'll send you the bill for the cost of all the cases that cannot be proved? How's that?
Are you willing to pay extra tax? No .. thought not.

In any case .. you are talking about violent assault .. nothing to do with consent .. it is a crime .. full stop.
There does not need to be a separate crime of "marital rape".

 

[muhammad_isa]

As I think I mentioned before, the attitudes you've expressed are things I've never gotten from the Muslims I know in real life..

It is not an easy subject..
@Debater Slayer has already informed us in this thread that such a heated debate is ongoing in Egypt.

I think you'll find, that if they "win" that debate, the next thing is to make marriage an "optional extra", as it is no longer meaningful.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll send you the bill for the cost of all the cases that cannot be proved? How's that?
Are you willing to pay extra tax? No .. thought not.

In any case .. you are talking about violent assault .. nothing to do with consent .. it is a crime .. full stop.
There does not need to be a separate crime of "marital rape".

If you're now saying that all spousal rape should be considered a crime, great.

Earlier in this thread, you were drawing a distinction between spousal rape involving what you called "actual bodily harm" (without ever really explaining what you meant by this), which you considered a crime, and spousal rape not involving what you deem "actual bodily harm," which you argued shouldn't even be considered a crime at all.

Have you changed your mind?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'll send you the bill for the cost of all the cases that cannot be proved? How's that?
Are you willing to pay extra tax? No .. thought not.

In any case .. you are talking about violent assault .. nothing to do with consent .. it is a crime .. full stop.
There does not need to be a separate crime of "marital rape".

I already pay taxes for it so yes.

There isn't a separate category. At all times when you have sex with someone when they do not want to have sex with you, it's rape. Including when a husband does it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Earlier in this thread, you were drawing a distinction between spousal rape involving what you called "actual bodily harm" (without ever really explaining what you meant by this), which you considered a crime, and spousal rape not involving what you deem "actual bodily harm," which you argued shouldn't even be considered a crime at all.

Go and ask a policeman..
When is it reasonable to prosecute your husband for violent assault?
What evidence do I need etc.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There isn't a separate category. At all times when you have sex with someone when they do not want to have sex with you, it's rape. Including when a husband does it.

That is just repeating the same old..

When is it likely you will get a successful prosecution?
I assume this assault takes place in a marital bedroom.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Go and ask a policeman..
When is it reasonable to prosecute your husband for violent assault?
What evidence do I need etc.

Well, again. In Denmark we do have a category of psychological violence and non-violent assault rape, so yes. I can ask a policewomen or man and I already know the answer. That include a husband. Or even in reverse a wife.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Go and ask a policeman..

Why would I ask a policeman what your opinion is?

When is it reasonable to prosecute your husband for violent assault?
What evidence do I need etc.

- when what he did constitutes a crime
- when the evidence is strong enough for a reasonable chance of conviction

These criteria wouldn't be met if the law doesn't recognize what he did as a crime.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well, again. In Denmark we do have a category of psychological violence and non-violent assault rape, so yes. I can ask a policewomen or man and I already know the answer. That include a husband. Or even in reverse a wife.

Yes .. I understand that you may have such a law..
..but what sort of evidence do you need to successfully prosecute?

..and can children be witnesses, and help to prosecute their father?
Who pays for all of this?
Where does the money come from?
How many cases are reported?
How many cases go to court?

..just a few questions..

 

[muhammad_isa]

- when what he did constitutes a crime
- when the evidence is strong enough for a reasonable chance of conviction

OK
..and what evidence would that be?

These criteria wouldn't be met if the law doesn't recognize what he did as a crime.

You mean, you were violently assaulted, but there was no actual bodily harm?
Yeah .. I know all about that. It happens all the time.

I got assaulted on a train by some rowdy football supporters.
Fortunately, somebody witnessed it, and the perpetrator was dealt with.
I got a black eye.

 

[F1fan]

..because there does not have to be a separate law.
Violence to the person is violence to the person .. sexual consent does not come into it.

This seems to admit the problem in your attitude. You can reject a woman's pain because she is obligated to have sex with her husband. You have offered no exemptions as to a Muslim wife being able to say "no" to her husband, like if she was sick or had some physical problem. You say mistreatment isn't allowed, but you have been careful not to accept forced sex as mistreatment, so not a problem. And now you admit consent is not an option. You've said it in other words, but not like this. Consent is about human rights, and you admit human rights are not an option in marriage where it comes to sex. This is a criminal attitude in the West.

Sexual consent is only an issue in secular societies, where marriage is not relevant,
and is not considered as implicit consent .. it is in effect an "optional extra".

Freedom. Human rights.

The police then have to deal with cases of a domestic nature, where women want to prosecute their husbands for a sexual crime, whilst in their bedrooms.
She said .. he said etc. perhaps there should be audio recording in the bedroom, to prove one way or the other.

Yeah, there are laws that protect the human rights of women, and you have a problem with this.

 

[F1fan]

I'll send you the bill for the cost of all the cases that cannot be proved? How's that?
Are you willing to pay extra tax? No .. thought not.

Then teach Muslim boys to respect women.

Notice you weren't concerned with the costs of divorces after a wife is raped by her husband and she is done with him.

In any case .. you are talking about violent assault .. nothing to do with consent .. it is a crime .. full stop.
There does not need to be a separate crime of "marital rape".

Rape is rape. Marriage or not, it's irrelevant because in the West all individuals have rights. Marriages do not eliminate these rights.

 

[F1fan]

Yes .. I understand that you may have such a law..
..but what sort of evidence do you need to successfully prosecute?

Typically it will need some evidence, perhaps a secret video or audio of the abuse. Or the testimony of family members who have heard stories of ongoing abuse.

..and can children be witnesses, and help to prosecute their father?

Absolutely, toxic familiy environments are harmful for children, and the kids can be interviewed about their exveriences in the home. Fathers don't get an exemption for any reason just because he's a man. His obligation as a man is to take care of his family, not abuse them because he lacks maturity. Anyone who commits crimes can be held accountable.

Who pays for all of this?
Where does the money come from?
How many cases are reported?
How many cases go to court?

..just a few questions..

Some states and communities have free services available to women and kids get them away from harm and threats by husbands.

It's odd you are more concerned about money than the welfare of women and children.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You have offered no exemptions as to a Muslim wife being able to say "no" to her husband

That's it .. Muslims are all monsters .. we don't care about our families

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's it .. Muslims are all monsters .. we don't care about our families

No, you just have a different set of moral rules. But you do care differently than some of us.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Typically it will need some evidence, perhaps a secret video or audio of the abuse.

I see .. so what you are suggesting is that the "abused" woman gets video/audio evidence set up in the bedroom,
and then provoke her husband into sexual intercourse against her will.
That is evil. She will be held accountable for that by G-d.

If a woman fears violence from her husband, she should leave and seek divorce..
..not play silly games.

Or the testimony of family members who have heard stories of ongoing abuse.

That won't do. It is not very convincing .. "heard stories".

Some states and communities have free services available to women and kids get them away from harm and threats by husbands..

I understand that. That is a good thing. I'm in total agreement with it.
A woman shouldn't be forced to live with a man who she doesn't approve of.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I see .. so what you are suggesting is that the "abused" woman gets video/audio evidence set up in the bedroom,
and then provoke her husband into sexual intercourse against her will.
That is evil. She will be held accountable for that by G-d.

If a woman fears violence from her husband, she should leave and seek divorce..
..not play silly games.


That won't do. It is not very convincing .. "heard stories".


I understand that. That is a good thing. I'm in total agreement with it.
A woman shouldn't be forced to live with a man who she doesn't approve of.

We have been here before. You don't live in a country that follows your G-d. So your feelings are irrelevant for the actual laws.

I will ask you this. Do you accept the rule of law in your country as the rule of law?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I will ask you this. Do you accept the rule of law in your country as the rule of law?

Yes.
..but that has little to do with truth.

If a woman dislikes her husband, she should not be with him.
Setting up audio/video in a marital bedroom to use in a court against him in a "marital rape" charge is immoral.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes.
..but that has little to do with truth.

If a woman dislikes her husband, she should not be with him.
Setting up audio/video in a marital bedroom to use in a court against him in a "marital rape" charge is immoral.

Yeah, we differ there.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yeah, we differ there.

Surprise, surprise..
It is no wonder that we have so many one-parent families .. she loves me .. she loves me not.