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Does belief in the Flood indicate intellectual incapacity?

outhouse

Atheistically
Again I don't necessarily believe the flood happened, but I see nothing wrong with that belief.


Because one has to literally lie to their selves, when denouncing modern science, geology, and biblical historians, reason and logic.


This is when faith can be dangerous. Because it opens the doors that scripture can be more important then reality.
 

IHaveTheGift

U know who U R
Because one has to literally lie to their selves, when denouncing modern science, geology, and biblical historians, reason and logic.


This is when faith can be dangerous. Because it opens the doors that scripture can be more important then reality.


Why would you purposely leave off everything else I said?
 

ruffen

Active Member
I don't believe the Flood of Noah happened.
Never the less though, ... if a Deity actually did create the whole universe, earth included....
I think it's pretty fair assumption that he could flood the Earth, then drain it off and put it back the way it was before the Flood.

Again I don't necessarily believe the flood happened, but I see nothing wrong with that belief.

The problems with believing that God made the Flood happened and then removed all the evidence of it are many. What was the point of the Flood if nobody would later learn a lesson from it? If every evidence it had happened was covered up by God? It makes no sense. If the Biblical version of this story is to be believed it was also an epic failure of biblical proportions, as on the very next page in the Bible, evil has once again spread on Earth.

Any reasonably intellectually capable person should not need to ponder the Flood story for more than 10 minutes before declaring it as not a thing that actually happened.

The mere silliness of it should be immediately apparent to anyone.
 

Amechania

Daimona of the Helpless
Because one has to literally lie to their selves, when denouncing modern science, geology, and biblical historians, reason and logic.


This is when faith can be dangerous. Because it opens the doors that scripture can be more important then reality.

Sure. For people who take the literal view scripture is reality. If you believe the Bible is literally true, you must believe the flood story actually happened as written, or your entire faith system falls like a house of cards.
Jesus literally walked on water, Moses actually parted the Red Sea, and Paul really didn't hate women. :sarcastic
 

arthra

Baha'i
Evidence from numerous fields such as geology, genetics and archeology shows clearly that the flood of the Genesis part of the bible cannot have happened as described there.

That account may have cultural or moral value as a story, but it clearly has none as history.

There are individuals who, in the face of the above, continue to insist that the Noah's flood story actually occurred. What is one to make of this? Has their religiosity actually impaired their ability to reason? Is their stance really political and not based on actual beliefs? What gives?

When the story of the flood developed it was in an area with frequent flooding and to people who viewed the earth as limited to the horizon it would indeed have been widespread! Flood stories can also be found in Meso America and in Hindu legend.

The flood story was an allegory and moral teaching...about how the wickedness of man was widespread. The "ark" was also an allegory of the safety for the few believers in that time.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The problems with believing that God made the Flood happened and then removed all the evidence of it are many. What was the point of the Flood if nobody would later learn a lesson from it? If every evidence it had happened was covered up by God? It makes no sense. If the Biblical version of this story is to be believed it was also an epic failure of biblical proportions, as on the very next page in the Bible, evil has once again spread on Earth.

Any reasonably intellectually capable person should not need to ponder the Flood story for more than 10 minutes before declaring it as not a thing that actually happened.

The mere silliness of it should be immediately apparent to anyone.

Millions of "reasonably intellectually capable" persons have pondered the Flood account in the Bible, and consider the Deluge historical reality. Jesus Christ is one who believed the Deluge occurred, and drew lessons from it. " For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,*and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:27-39) I believe the Flood demonstrates God's will and ability to end wickedness in his due time. The people who watched Noah build the huge ark must have thought he was silly. But not when the rain began to fall.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Millions of "reasonably intellectually capable" persons have pondered the Flood account in the Bible, and consider the Deluge historical reality. Jesus Christ is one who believed the Deluge occurred, and drew lessons from it. " For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,*and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:27-39) I believe the Flood demonstrates God's will and ability to end wickedness in his due time. The people who watched Noah build the huge ark must have thought he was silly. But not when the rain began to fall.

Millions of people can be dead wrong. I am sure that at times, pretty well all of humanity was sure that the earth was flat.

You have still failed to address the evidence that shows that Noah's flood never happened.

Who cares what is in some old book when, by merely driving through hilly country and looking at road cuttings, one can plainly see that its story never occurred?

Again, the Noah story may have value as a parable, as you point out, but not as history.

Surely, belief in the face of plain contrary evidence is delusion.

It is my personal opinion that one of the noxious effects of religion is just such delusional thinking.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Millions of people can be dead wrong. I am sure that at times, pretty well all of humanity was sure that the earth was flat.

You have still failed to address the evidence that shows that Noah's flood never happened.

Who cares what is in some old book when, by merely driving through hilly country and looking at road cuttings, one can plainly see that its story never occurred?

Again, the Noah story may have value as a parable, as you point out, but not as history.

Surely, belief in the face of plain contrary evidence is delusion.

It is my personal opinion that one of the noxious effects of religion is just such delusional thinking.

Sorry, I must have missed it. What evidence?
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Sorry, I must have missed it. What evidence?

I'm content to chew my cabbage again. The two evidences I am interested in are the lack of any ubiquitous debris in ground layers dating to the supposed time of the flood and the lack of disruption of ancient civilizations present at that time.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm content to chew my cabbage again. The two evidences I am interested in are the lack of any ubiquitous debris in ground layers dating to the supposed time of the flood and the lack of disruption of ancient civilizations present at that time.

I respect your right to believe what you choose. I do not find your evidence against a global deluge compelling. As mentioned previously, the global deluge was a unique event and bears as little resemblance to a local flood as a gentle breeze does to an F5 tornado. As to the dates given to ancient civilizations, I find this quote from a Bible encyclopedia pertinent: "With the Deluge great changes came, for example, the life span of humans dropped very rapidly. Some have suggested that prior to the Flood the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation and that, with the waters gone, cosmic radiation genetically harmful to man increased. However, the Bible is silent on the matter. Incidentally, any change in radiation would have altered the rate of formation of radioactive carbon-14 to such an extent as to invalidate all radiocarbon dates prior to the Flood.

With the sudden opening of the ‘springs of the watery deep’ and “the floodgates of the heavens,” untold billions of tons of water deluged the earth. (Ge 7:11) This may have caused tremendous changes in earth’s surface. The earth’s crust, which is relatively thin and varied in thickness, is stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of kilometers in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water, there was likely a great shifting in the crust. In time new mountains evidently were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened, and new shorelines were established, with the result that now about 70 percent of the surface is covered with water. This shifting in the earth’s crust may account for many geologic phenomena, such as the raising of old coastlines to new heights. It has been estimated by some that water pressures alone were equal to “2 tons per square inch,” sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly.—See The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, by D. Patten, 1966, p. 62." (IT-1 p.609)
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
I respect your right to believe what you choose. I do not find your evidence against a global deluge compelling. As mentioned previously, the global deluge was a unique event and bears as little resemblance to a local flood as a gentle breeze does to an F5 tornado. As to the dates given to ancient civilizations, I find this quote from a Bible encyclopedia pertinent: "With the Deluge great changes came, for example, the life span of humans dropped very rapidly. Some have suggested that prior to the Flood the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation and that, with the waters gone, cosmic radiation genetically harmful to man increased. However, the Bible is silent on the matter. Incidentally, any change in radiation would have altered the rate of formation of radioactive carbon-14 to such an extent as to invalidate all radiocarbon dates prior to the Flood.

With the sudden opening of the ‘springs of the watery deep’ and “the floodgates of the heavens,” untold billions of tons of water deluged the earth. (Ge 7:11) This may have caused tremendous changes in earth’s surface. The earth’s crust, which is relatively thin and varied in thickness, is stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of kilometers in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water, there was likely a great shifting in the crust. In time new mountains evidently were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened, and new shorelines were established, with the result that now about 70 percent of the surface is covered with water. This shifting in the earth’s crust may account for many geologic phenomena, such as the raising of old coastlines to new heights. It has been estimated by some that water pressures alone were equal to “2 tons per square inch,” sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly.—See The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, by D. Patten, 1966, p. 62." (IT-1 p.609)


How about information from someone other than those already steeped in religious delusion?

By the way, C-14 is not the only means of establishing dates. The effects you mention would have had no effect on them.

This kind of intellectual tapdancing, free of any real evidence, is not compelling: it is merely amusing.

Your quote clearly ignores what is known about geology and geochemistry. Its assertions are nonsense.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Hawkins said:
It is almost impossible for humans to understand all the Catastrophes ever occurred in the pass billion years (assume an old earth). It's simply a human arrogance to think that something is impossible.

It is not as much an issue of what is impossible as what is improbable. According to the vast majority of geologists, including the majority of Christian geologists, lots of evidence shows that a global flood did not occur.

Do you believe that a global flood occurred?

Hawkins said:
Moreover, genealogy is for witnessing only, not for year calculation. Humans use genealogy for year calculation may not be using it correctly. For an example, the purpose of the Biblical account acts as an witness that Jesus is from David. If one or two generations somehow were skipped between Adam and David, it's still a valid witnessing to serve the purpose that Jesus is from David then Adam. However, it won't be accurate when using for year calculation.

Bible genealogies cannot be used to show who actually begat who.

There is not any reasonable proof that Jesus was a descendant of David. In addition, there is not any reasonable proof that Adam and Eve existed.

Do you object to theistic evolution?
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
rusra02 said:
I respect your [Looncall] right to believe what you choose. I do not find your evidence against a global deluge compelling.

You do not know enough about geology to make such a claim. In addition, you do not know enough about biology to claim that creationism is true. Please critique articles on the global flood at http://glennmortonspages.wikispaces.com/Microfossil+Stratigraphy+Presents+Problems+for+the+Flood, http://glennmortonspages.wikispaces.com/Too+Many+Fossils+for+a+Global+Flood, and http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fossil_sorting_by_the_global_flood. In addition, please critique an article on the flagellum by Dr. Ken Miller at
The Flagellum Unspun

Would you like to have some formal debates with experts in geology, and biology?

You have claimed that humans have existed for less than 10,000 years. An article at http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/science/10neanderthal.html?_r=0 says:

nytimes.com said:
An improvement in the dating of fossils suggests that the Neanderthals, a heavily muscled, thick-boned human species adapted to living in ice age Europe, perished almost immediately on contact with the modern humans who started to enter Europe from the Near East about 44,000 years ago. Until now bones from several Neanderthal sites have been dated to as young as 29,000 years ago, suggesting there was extensive overlap between the two human species. This raised the question of whether there had been interbreeding between humans and Neanderthals, an issue that is still not resolved.

But researchers report that tests using an improved method of radiocarbon dating, based on a new way to exclude contaminants, show that most, and maybe all, Neanderthal bones in Europe are or will be found to be at least 39,000 years old. Thomas F. G. Higham, a specialist in radiocarbon dating at Oxford University, and Ron Pinhasi, an archaeologist at University College Cork in Ireland, have dated the bones of a Neanderthal child less than 2 years old whose remains were found in the Mezmaiskaya Cave in the northern Caucasus Mountains. A second Neanderthal baby, found in a lower layer in the cave, was previously dated back 29,000 years.

Genetic evidence conclusively proves that some humans living today are related to Neanderthals who lived tens of thousands of years ago.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
the waters above the expanse shielded out some of the harmful radiation


Lets get this straight.

YOU think that water was surrounding the earth up in the sky somewhere against the LAWS of gravity, and that enough light shined through this water for plants to grow and life to exist.

But messed up all that whacky radiation testing?


Oh please tell us more!


:biglaugh:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly

Ah the ole instant fossilization, add water and walla! Look Ma! no hands! insta fossil! :facepalm:



If that were the case, it could be recreated in a lab.


“2 tons per square inch,”

One can down on the ocean right now and hit that pressure very easily, yet no fossilization quickly occurs.


Is that honest on your part?

You don't think this is intellectually reaching beyond reality?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
. As to the dates given to ancient civilizations, I find this quote from a Bible encyclopedia pertinent:

How so? It ignores the whole statement! :slap:


There were factually civilizations that existed a thousand years prior to and after the flood that EVERYWHERE around the world that show no break at all.


Even the Sumerians had writing at this time, and there was no break in their civilization. :facepalm: before or after.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
YOU can pick any date you want for a flood.

And I can show you a race of people in EVERY part of the world that show no break in their civilization what so ever.



Supply an exact date for a flood, or it never happened.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ah the ole instant fossilization, add water and walla! Look Ma! no hands! insta fossil! :facepalm:



If that were the case, it could be recreated in a lab.




One can down on the ocean right now and hit that pressure very easily, yet no fossilization quickly occurs.


Is that honest on your part?

You don't think this is intellectually reaching beyond reality?

The quote was from the source mentioned. Are you claiming fossilization could not occur, given those conditions?
 
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