Does belief in the Flood indicate intellectual incapacity?

[rusra02]

YOU can pick any date you want for a flood.

And I can show you a race of people in EVERY part of the world that show no break in their civilization what so ever.



Supply an exact date for a flood, or it never happened.

The Bible does provide an exact date for the Flood, as you should know. Regarding the downpour, we are told: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life [2370 B.C.E.], in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”—Genesis 7:11. In turn, please verify your dates by describing how those dates are calculated.

 

[Looncall]

The Bible does provide an exact date for the Flood, as you should know. Regarding the downpour, we are told: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life [2370 B.C.E.], in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”—Genesis 7:11. In turn, please verify your dates by describing how those dates are calculated.

It is not so much particular dates that are at issue, it is the continuity of the civilizations that matters.

Are you in principle unwilling to admit that the biblical account of the flood is unhistorical, regardless of what evidence is produced?

 

[outhouse]

The quote was from the source mentioned. Are you claiming fossilization could not occur, given those conditions?

Yes I am.

Have they ever occured from that? Making irrational claims like that needs evidence, not imagination.

 

[outhouse]

The Bible does provide an exact date for the Flood, as you should know. Regarding the downpour, we are told: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life [2370 B.C.E.], in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”—Genesis 7:11. In turn, please verify your dates by describing how those dates are calculated.

Well at that exact time we have cultures existing in EVERY part of the world with no break what so ever.


EVERY COUNTRY

5th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• 5000–4500 BC: Għar Dalam phase of Neolithic farmers on Malta, possibly immigrant farmers from the Agrigento region of Sicily
  Cucuteni-Trypillia culture
  
  
• 5000–4000 BC: Bowl, from Banpo, near Xi'an, Shaanxi, is made. Neolithic period. Yangshao culture. It is now kept at Banpo Museum.
• 5000–2000 BCE: Neolithic period in China
• 4900–4600 BC: Arrangements of circular ditches are built in Central Europe (the Goseck circle was constructed ca. 4900 BC)
• 4800 BC: Dimini culture replaces the Sesklo culture in Thessaly (4800–4000 BC)
• c. 4500 BC: Settlement of Chirokitia dates from this period
• c. 4500 BC: Ending of Neolithic IA (the Aceramic) in Cyprus
• c. 4350 BC: Kikai Caldera forms in a massive VEI7 eruption.
• c. 4300 BC: First Funnelbeaker Culture in north and east Germany
• 4300 BC: Theta Boötis became the nearest visible star to the celestial north pole. It remained the closest until 3942 BC when it was replaced by Thuban.
• c. 4250–3750 BC: Menhir alignments at Menec, Carnac, France are made
• 4200 BC: Date of Mesolithic examples of Naalebinding found in Denmark, marking spread of technology to Northern Europe (Bender 1990)
• 4100–3500 BC: New wave of immigration to Malta from Sicily leads to the Żebbuġ and Mġarr phases, and to the Ġgantija phase of temple builders

 

[ruffen]

The Bible does provide an exact date for the Flood, as you should know. Regarding the downpour, we are told: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life [2370 B.C.E.], in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on this day all the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”—Genesis 7:11. In turn, please verify your dates by describing how those dates are calculated.

So, in less than 4500 years, all the genetic diversity we see in humans today has evolved... sorry - "developed".

Every single human on Earth today has a common ancestor in Noah 4500 years ago? Even if we assume people have become parents at an average age of 20 years, we're only about 220 generations since Noah.

In those 220 generations, from that one couple of Noah and his wife, their sons and their wives - all the different etnicities and variations, hair colors, eye colors, and different indigenous people throughout the world, have come about?

Do you really believe that?

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Every single human on Earth today has a common ancestor in Noah 4500 years ago? Even if we assume people have become parents at an average age of 20 years, we're only about 220 generations since Noah.

In those 220 generations, from that one couple of Noah and his wife, their sons and their wives - all the different etnicities and variations, hair colors, eye colors, and different indigenous people throughout the world, have come about?

Do you really believe that?

There is a related double standard in which many creationists insist mutation rates are so pitifully slow that they cannot be a driving force for the massive diversity of life we see. I seem to remember this being a point of Michael Behe...

It would be interesting to see how they justify divergence from Noah whilst holding on to that.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Any intelligent belief should leave room for doubt.

 

[outhouse]

Any intelligent belief should leave room for doubt.

All I ask for is honesty, with this type of faith, you dont get it.

 

[rusra02]

Well at that exact time we have cultures existing in EVERY part of the world with no break what so ever.


EVERY COUNTRY

5th millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• 5000–4500 BC: Għar Dalam phase of Neolithic farmers on Malta, possibly immigrant farmers from the Agrigento region of Sicily
  Cucuteni-Trypillia culture
  
  
• 5000–4000 BC: Bowl, from Banpo, near Xi'an, Shaanxi, is made. Neolithic period. Yangshao culture. It is now kept at Banpo Museum.
• 5000–2000 BCE: Neolithic period in China
• 4900–4600 BC: Arrangements of circular ditches are built in Central Europe (the Goseck circle was constructed ca. 4900 BC)
• 4800 BC: Dimini culture replaces the Sesklo culture in Thessaly (4800–4000 BC)
• c. 4500 BC: Settlement of Chirokitia dates from this period
• c. 4500 BC: Ending of Neolithic IA (the Aceramic) in Cyprus
• c. 4350 BC: Kikai Caldera forms in a massive VEI7 eruption.
• c. 4300 BC: First Funnelbeaker Culture in north and east Germany
• 4300 BC: Theta Boötis became the nearest visible star to the celestial north pole. It remained the closest until 3942 BC when it was replaced by Thuban.
• c. 4250–3750 BC: Menhir alignments at Menec, Carnac, France are made
• 4200 BC: Date of Mesolithic examples of Naalebinding found in Denmark, marking spread of technology to Northern Europe (Bender 1990)
• 4100–3500 BC: New wave of immigration to Malta from Sicily leads to the Żebbuġ and Mġarr phases, and to the Ġgantija phase of temple builders

You have provided no proof for the dates you mentioned. Just stating a date doesn't mean that date is correct.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

All I ask for is honesty, with this type of faith, you dont get it.

Are you implying I am not honest, or that most Christians are not.

An honest person knows full well that all humans err, and what they write and teach also contains error. This susceptibility to error includes all scripture and all dogma of every religion.

If that were not true, there could only be a single religion with a single sect. and no differences in doctrine or practice.
This is clearly not the case.

 

[rusra02]

So, in less than 4500 years, all the genetic diversity we see in humans today has evolved... sorry - "developed".

Every single human on Earth today has a common ancestor in Noah 4500 years ago? Even if we assume people have become parents at an average age of 20 years, we're only about 220 generations since Noah.

In those 220 generations, from that one couple of Noah and his wife, their sons and their wives - all the different etnicities and variations, hair colors, eye colors, and different indigenous people throughout the world, have come about?

Do you really believe that?

Of course I believe it. The evidence for a common ancestor for all humans is abundant. The Bible reveals the migration and wide dispersal of people was forced, not a gradual occurrence. (Genesis 11:7-9)

 

[rusra02]

Yes I am.

Have they ever occured from that? Making irrational claims like that needs evidence, not imagination.

Now, can you prove your claim?

 

[rusra02]

There is a related double standard in which many creationists insist mutation rates are so pitifully slow that they cannot be a driving force for the massive diversity of life we see. I seem to remember this being a point of Michael Behe...

It would be interesting to see how they justify divergence from Noah whilst holding on to that.

It's simple, really. The variations possible within a kind were put there by our wise Creator, who delights in variety and beauty. Rather than producing clones or carbon copies of animals, plants, and humans, I believe Jehovah programmed the ability to produce wide variations in color, body size, etc. in the DNA of living creatures.

 

[outhouse]

Now, can you prove your claim?

YOU need to prove yours. You have not.

 

[outhouse]

You have provided no proof for the dates you mentioned. Just stating a date doesn't mean that date is correct.

My dates are credible. It is YOUR date that is not credible.


Just because you don't like it doesn't mean anything at all. :slap:

 

[outhouse]

YOU have not been able to refute a single word.

YOU are no match against the brightest minds in every country around the world.

YOU do not get to discount them with any credibility.


This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, theist included, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[rusra02]

My dates are credible. It is YOUR date that is not credible.


Just because you don't like it doesn't mean anything at all. :slap:

Here is what I think. That each person should examine the facts for themselves, and not be led blindly along by supposed authorities, religious or scientific. I believe the global deluge occurred. Despite many attempts to discredit and disprove the Bible's account of the global Deluge, I believe the Genesis record has met these challenges to it's accuracy and stands as historical fact.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

It's simple, really. The variations possible within a kind were put there by our wise Creator, who delights in variety and beauty. Rather than producing clones or carbon copies of animals, plants, and humans, I believe Jehovah programmed the ability to produce wide variations in color, body size, etc. in the DNA of living creatures.

I'm not sure that your point really hits upon the problem I present. The amount of genetic variation between humans is pretty sizable (though tiny in the context of the whole genome). To account for this variability from a small population of humans a short period of time ago, the rate of mutation would have been massive compared to our present estimates. This is ironic, given that many creationists argue that mutation rates are far too low for evolution to be feasible. It's having your cake and eating it too.

 

[Fromper]

And some atheists wonder why religious folks think we're all a bunch of arrogant, stuck up pseudo-intellectuals. The title of this thread answers that question quite nicely.

Look, I'm an atheist. I don't believe there was a global flood. There was probably some major flooding that affected all the areas that the ancient people knew about at the time, the story about it made it into their oral tradition. Eventually got written down in Genesis, with a whole lot of embellishment to turn it into a parable about trying to have a more moral society.

But just because I don't believe in the Bible, I don't go around accusing anyone of being idiots. I'm sure some of them are very smart people who just haven't examined the evidence. Maybe they refuse to look to closely at their own deeply held beliefs, because they're afraid to find evidence they're wrong. It's called cognitive dissonance, and it's a well known psychological phenomena that ALL humans experience, either in small or large degrees, at some point in their lives. That doesn't say anything about anyone's "intellectual incapacity".

If you want to debate the biblical flood story, go ahead. But as an atheist, I'd request that the OP and others like him try to keep things polite. You're making the rest of us look bad.

 

[Looncall]

And some atheists wonder why religious folks think we're all a bunch of arrogant, stuck up pseudo-intellectuals. The title of this thread answers that question quite nicely.

Look, I'm an atheist. I don't believe there was a global flood. There was probably some major flooding that affected all the areas that the ancient people knew about at the time, the story about it made it into their oral tradition. Eventually got written down in Genesis, with a whole lot of embellishment to turn it into a parable about trying to have a more moral society.

But just because I don't believe in the Bible, I don't go around accusing anyone of being idiots. I'm sure some of them are very smart people who just haven't examined the evidence. Maybe they refuse to look to closely at their own deeply held beliefs, because they're afraid to find evidence they're wrong. It's called cognitive dissonance, and it's a well known psychological phenomena that ALL humans experience, either in small or large degrees, at some point in their lives. That doesn't say anything about anyone's "intellectual incapacity".

If you want to debate the biblical flood story, go ahead. But as an atheist, I'd request that the OP and others like him try to keep things polite. You're making the rest of us look bad.

Surely being unable to change one's mind in the face of clear evidence is a kind of intellectual disability. The fact that it is common is irrelevant.

I am not willing to accord religion its usual unearned deference when confronted by that sort of behaviour.