Does belief in the Flood indicate intellectual incapacity?

[rusra02]

Funny how rusra avoids this objection.

I have addressed it repeatedly, Looncall. The supposed dates, and dating methods, for these settlements are speculative and error-prone, as you should know.

 

[Looncall]

I have addressed it repeatedly, Looncall. The supposed dates, and dating methods, for these settlements are speculative and error-prone, as you should know.

Considering that I am a nuclear scientist, I do have some notions of such things.

Such uncertainties as there are, are orders of magnitude less than you need to bring your flood fable into the world of facts. The phenomena involved are thoroughly understood.

I am (actually not much, given recent experience) surprised that followers of a religion that condemns false witness should prove to be pernicious liars.

 

[rusra02]

Considering that I am a nuclear scientist, I do have some notions of such things.

Such uncertainties as there are, are orders of magnitude less than you need to bring your flood fable into the world of facts. The phenomena involved are thoroughly understood.

I am (actually not much, given recent experience) surprised that followers of a religion that condemns false witness should prove to be pernicious liars.

So, those who disagree with your assertions are not only intellectually deficient but pernicious liars. Such personal attacks are not evidence, and do you no credit.

 

[Looncall]

So, those who disagree with your assertions are not only intellectually deficient but pernicious liars. Such personal attacks are not evidence, and do you no credit.

Not so much attacks as often-repeated observations.

Very well, please provide details of these problems with dating methods you keep mentioning. Let's see some beef here!

 

[Harold]

Yes I can prove it is mythical.

Okay…so we have similarities between these writings and the biblical accounts of Noah’s flood.


You’re saying the writers of the Bible copied the earlier writings.


There is a problem with this.



Even the critics who specialize in this style of ancient literature say there is no evidence of literary borrowing, in fact just the opposite. They propose that they were referring to the same story.


One paper by A. Heidel, A.R. Millard and D. Damrosch concludes this way:

“Literary dependence cannot be demonstrated. Here, as in most of the parallels in the primeval history, it is considered more likely that Mesopotamian and biblical traditions are based on a common source. Some understand this common source to be a piece of more ancient literature, while others consider it the actual event.’ Hill & Walton, ‘A Survey of the Old Testament’, p. (2010).

There are pieces of this story that can be found in almost every culture, regardless of its location.


Take for example the story of Viracocha in South America.


Viracocha created the heavens and the earth. He then took large stones and breathed life into them. But they became giants, so he sent a flood to wipe them out. After the flood he breathed into smaller stones than the first time thereby creating smaller people, which were then scattered all over the world.


And in the bible, in Genesis 6 we see something similar. The Sons of God disobeyed God, they came to earth had sex with human women and produced giants. They almost destroyed the original human population so God sent the flood.


These stories are found around the world. They are in China, Europe, the Middle East, they are found in Native American traditions, in South America and many others.


In most of these stories we have 8 people on a boat.


In my humble opinion it seems obvious all these groups are talking about the same story. The problem is as each of these groups separated they began adding in details that were more important to them. I am sure that each culture believed they were passing on the true account of humanity to their children as the story was told to them.


It does make sense.



We have a boat and everyone died except for the ones on the boat. Each person passed the story on to their kids. This means the entire world had a similar story.


This proves something happened!


The question should not be, “Is it true?” The question should be, “Which story is closest to the truth?”


Now…I understand that our desire is to go with the story that was recorded first and on the surface that makes sense. But remember the people writing down the history weren’t there.



Other words, these are events that have been handed down from generation to generation and each story has been changed to focus on what the person handing down the story felt was the most important part of the story.


It doesn’t matter who recorded the story first, what matters is how well the story was preserved.


For example if you look at the Sumerian accounts they differ one from the other.


When they give the dimensions of the boat it sounds good until you draw it out. Drawn out the boat ends up being a giant cube.



However naval engineers have said the biblical account describes a near perfect example of a boat designed for stability in rough seas.


The Sumerians on the other hand constantly change the details of their stories to suit the different situations.


For example, in the temple of Enki the story is different from the same story in the same time period found in the temple of Innana. If the story is different in the same time period think of how much more it changes between the different time periods.



There are lots of inconsistencies and they seem to have been somewhat careless in their desire to hand down the correct story.


Let’s compare them to the Hebrew scribes, who are famous for taking their job seriously. They had rules for coping sacred text.



This became evident when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.


For example take a look at the Isaiah scroll.


It is one of the best preserved scrolls and the best way to prove or disprove their ability to preserve the scriptures. What you will find is that they did a flawless job.


I’ve been told stories of my own family history that only dates back one generation that differ depending on whose telling the story. I do not go with the story that was told first but rather the story that was told by the most reliable relative.


Some of my relatives seem to have very little interest in the accurate transmission of the details of their stories and the generations before us were no different.

Everyone having different parts of the same story does not disprove the story but in my humble opinion it does the opposite...it proves the story.

 

[Looncall]

Okay…so we have similarities between these writings and the biblical accounts of Noah’s flood.


You’re saying the writers of the Bible copied the earlier writings.


There is a problem with this.



Even the critics who specialize in this style of ancient literature say there is no evidence of literary borrowing, in fact just the opposite. They propose that they were referring to the same story.


One paper by A. Heidel, A.R. Millard and D. Damrosch concludes this way:



There are pieces of this story that can be found in almost every culture, regardless of its location.


Take for example the story of Viracocha in South America.


Viracocha created the heavens and the earth. He then took large stones and breathed life into them. But they became giants, so he sent a flood to wipe them out. After the flood he breathed into smaller stones than the first time thereby creating smaller people, which were then scattered all over the world.


And in the bible, in Genesis 6 we see something similar. The Sons of God disobeyed God, they came to earth had sex with human women and produced giants. They almost destroyed the original human population so God sent the flood.


These stories are found around the world. They are in China, Europe, the Middle East, they are found in Native American traditions, in South America and many others.


In most of these stories we have 8 people on a boat.


In my humble opinion it seems obvious all these groups are talking about the same story. The problem is as each of these groups separated they began adding in details that were more important to them. I am sure that each culture believed they were passing on the true account of humanity to their children as the story was told to them.


It does make sense.



We have a boat and everyone died except for the ones on the boat. Each person passed the story on to their kids. This means the entire world had a similar story.


This proves something happened!


The question should not be, “Is it true?” The question should be, “Which story is closest to the truth?”


Now…I understand that our desire is to go with the story that was recorded first and on the surface that makes sense. But remember the people writing down the history weren’t there.



Other words, these are events that have been handed down from generation to generation and each story has been changed to focus on what the person handing down the story felt was the most important part of the story.


It doesn’t matter who recorded the story first, what matters is how well the story was preserved.


For example if you look at the Sumerian accounts they differ one from the other.


When they give the dimensions of the boat it sounds good until you draw it out. Drawn out the boat ends up being a giant cube.



However naval engineers have said the biblical account describes a near perfect example of a boat designed for stability in rough seas.


The Sumerians on the other hand constantly change the details of their stories to suit the different situations.


For example, in the temple of Enki the story is different from the same story in the same time period found in the temple of Innana. If the story is different in the same time period think of how much more it changes between the different time periods.



There are lots of inconsistencies and they seem to have been somewhat careless in their desire to hand down the correct story.


Let’s compare them to the Hebrew scribes, who are famous for taking their job seriously. They had rules for coping sacred text.



This became evident when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.


For example take a look at the Isaiah scroll.


It is one of the best preserved scrolls and the best way to prove or disprove their ability to preserve the scriptures. What you will find is that they did a flawless job.


I’ve been told stories of my own family history that only dates back one generation that differ depending on whose telling the story. I do not go with the story that was told first but rather the story that was told by the most reliable relative.


Some of my relatives seem to have very little interest in the accurate transmission of the details of their stories and the generations before us were no different.

Everyone having different parts of the same story does not disprove the story but in my humble opinion it does the opposite...it proves the story.

So how come that flood neither left any traces nor disrupted the civilizations around at the time?

Please explain.

 

[Henrique Aguiar]

So how come that flood neither left any traces nor disrupted the civilizations around at the time?

Please explain.

If you have not been able to find the evidence, this does not mean the evidence does not exist.
What leads you to believe that the flood didn't disrupt civilizations around at the time? You are not an eyewitness of that moment. So, you should slow down the "excessive certainty" that persists in slipping through your words. We are talking about very old facts that are subjected to an inevitable lack of precision.

 

[metis]

I have addressed it repeatedly, Looncall. The supposed dates, and dating methods, for these settlements are speculative and error-prone, as you should know.

This simply is not true. With any dating system that's used, there's a + and - attached that deals with any reliability issues. So, let's say we're using a dating technique whereas the variability of reliability is as high as 10%, and we're dating a strata that's let's say 100,000 b.p.

I can't write it here as you would see it in scientific journals, but it would look a bit like this: 100,000 + or - 10,000. This means that the object found in that strata would be no older than 110,000 or any younger than 90,000, with a 90% certainty of being correct.

The questionable reliability of dating techniques is "old school" since those who opposed understanding and accepting the evolutionary process would point to inaccuracies, and way back then that was at least somewhat of a valid argument, but that certainly is not true today.

 

[Looncall]

If you have not been able to find the evidence, this does not mean the evidence does not exist.
What leads you to believe that the flood didn't disrupt civilizations around at the time? You are not an eyewitness of that moment. So, you should slow down the "excessive certainty" that persists in slipping through your words. We are talking about very old facts that are subjected to an inevitable lack of precision.

The tired old "were you there" guff? If your home is burgled, do you bother to call the police? After all, they weren't there when it happened.

Events in the past leave traces that we can find in the present. For example, a major meteroid strike left an Iridium-rich layer that is found worldwide. Surely your flood, which is said to have happened much more recently, must have left an easily-detected layer. None such is found.

Noah's flood, as described, would have utterly abolished all civilizations present at the time. No such simultanious worldwide collapse of societies is known. To claim that traces of such an event would not be starkly evident in the archeological record is breathtakingly fatuous.

 

[Harold]

Considering that I am a nuclear scientist, I do have some notions of such things.

Now I’ve got no problem with the dates people come up with. Keep in mind that the Bible says one day to God is a thousand years to man. So just the recreation of the earth would have taken 7,000 years and the Qur'an says Satan was a Jinn and the Jinn’s lived here before us.

The Bible in my humble opinion is pretty clear on the fact that we were not the first to be here so you can make the earth as old as you like. And I feel confident in the fact that the different stories in history prove an event and do not disprove it.


However I have a hard time putting a lot of faith in the dating methods used as it requires a bit more faith then the belief in God.


Carbon dating relies on carbon-14. By measuring the amount of carbon-14 an age can be given. Of course this assumes the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere is constant as any variation would speed up or slow down the age.


Other words, the history, structure, formations, region, various geologic, atmospheric and solar processes can influence the levels. My understanding is the way scientists account for the variations is by counting tree rings.


Of course that only goes as far back as about 14,000 years. Marine records, such as corals, have been used to push farther back in time, but these are less reliable because levels of carbon-14 in the atmosphere and the ocean are not identical and tend shift with changes in ocean circulation.


Experiments have shown that rates can and do vary. In fact, changing the environments surrounding the samples can alter decay rates. The industrial revolution has increased the amount of carbon released into the atmosphere through the burning of coal. Atomic bomb testing has also increased carbon concentrations.


The great flood which Noah and family survived would have uprooted and/or buried entire forests. This would decrease the release of carbon-12 to the atmosphere through the decay of vegetation.



During the flood, subterranean water chambers that were under great pressure would have been breached. This would have resulted in an enormous amount of carbon being released into the oceans and atmosphere.



The water in these subterranean chambers would not have contained carbon-14, as the water was shielded from cosmic radiation. This would have upset the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12.


To make carbon-14 dating work there has to be a balance in the amount of carbon.


Live mollusks off the Hawaiian coast have had their shells dated with the carbon-14 method. These test showed that the shells died 2000 years ago!



Keep in mind that I did say they were live.



It is much harder for me to believe in a date set by science then it is for me to believe in God.

 

[metis]

It is a well-known fact amongst dating experts that aquatic organisms cannot be dated using carbon-14, largely because water reduces the rate of absorption of C-14. Secondly, as far as land organisms are concerned, the C-14 fluctuations are adjusted through the use of tree rings, therefore C-14 dating cannot be used on organisms that date back more than tens of thousands of years.

It is an accurate method if used properly, and today it very much is used that way.

 

[Henrique Aguiar]

The tired old "were you there" guff? If your home is burgled, do you bother to call the police? After all, they weren't there when it happened.

Senselessly senseless. I see no connection between what you said and the subject of our discussion.

Events in the past leave traces that we can find in the present. For example, a major meteroid strike left an Iridium-rich layer that is found worldwide. Surely your flood, which is said to have happened much more recently, must have left an easily-detected layer. None such is found.

The human stupidity is, at least, hilarious. We cannot even know what is in the depths of the oceans and, to top it off, we dare to develop "absolute truths" and "standards of normality". Look at the sky and you will notice how limited human reasoning is. Normality, it does not exist. Again, I invoke the idea that if you do not find the evidence, it does not mean that the fact did not exist.

Noah's flood, as described, would have utterly abolished all civilizations present at the time. No such simultanious worldwide collapse of societies is known. To claim that traces of such an event would not be starkly evident in the archeological record is breathtakingly fatuous.

Remember that - very probably - we do not have the necessary technology to find out such evidences. We have not yet reached the zenith of technology. Until then, we cannot, under any circumstances, establish "absolute truths" about this fact.

 

[Harold]

It is a well-known fact amongst dating experts that aquatic organisms cannot be dated using carbon-14, largely because water reduces the rate of absorption of C-14. Secondly, as far as land organisms are concerned, the C-14 fluctuations are adjusted through the use of tree rings, therefore C-14 dating cannot be used on organisms that date back more than tens of thousands of years.

It is an accurate method if used properly, and today it very much is used that way.

When the test comes back is it not true that there is a range of numbers and the one doing the test has to pick the correct number?

Would not the age they can go back depend on the age of the tress and the oldest trees are what...about 14,000 years old?

 

[metis]

When the test comes back is it not true that there is a range of numbers and the one doing the test has to pick the correct number?

Would not the age they can go back depend on the age of the tress and the oldest trees are what...about 14,000 years old?

To your first question, all dates are given in terms of a + and - to allow for the fact that nothing is perfect, including dating techniques. So, let's say that a date of 14,000, to use your number, is determined, then the + and - is put in, but that number will depend on various factors. Let's say the number is 1000. Therefore, it would be written somewhat similar to this "14,000 + or - 1000", or another way it would be no younger than 13,000 b.p. and no older than 15,000 b.p. with at least a 90% chance of it falling within that range.

As far as your 2nd question is concerned, if there are trees that have been fossilized (or live) in that area and/or at that same strata, these can be overlapped by matching the width of rings from tree to tree. Also, sometimes river and/or glacial varves may be available for use.

As time has gone on, much more is known about the use and limitations of these techniques, so they generally are quite accurate nowadays.

 

[Looncall]

Now I’ve got no problem with the dates people come up with. Keep in mind that the Bible says one day to God is a thousand years to man. So just the recreation of the earth would have taken 7,000 years and the Qur'an says Satan was a Jinn and the Jinn’s lived here before us.

The Bible in my humble opinion is pretty clear on the fact that we were not the first to be here so you can make the earth as old as you like. And I feel confident in the fact that the different stories in history prove an event and do not disprove it.


However I have a hard time putting a lot of faith in the dating methods used as it requires a bit more faith then the belief in God.


Carbon dating relies on carbon-14. By measuring the amount of carbon-14 an age can be given. Of course this assumes the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere is constant as any variation would speed up or slow down the age.


Other words, the history, structure, formations, region, various geologic, atmospheric and solar processes can influence the levels. My understanding is the way scientists account for the variations is by counting tree rings.


Of course that only goes as far back as about 14,000 years. Marine records, such as corals, have been used to push farther back in time, but these are less reliable because levels of carbon-14 in the atmosphere and the ocean are not identical and tend shift with changes in ocean circulation.


Experiments have shown that rates can and do vary. In fact, changing the environments surrounding the samples can alter decay rates. The industrial revolution has increased the amount of carbon released into the atmosphere through the burning of coal. Atomic bomb testing has also increased carbon concentrations.


The great flood which Noah and family survived would have uprooted and/or buried entire forests. This would decrease the release of carbon-12 to the atmosphere through the decay of vegetation.



During the flood, subterranean water chambers that were under great pressure would have been breached. This would have resulted in an enormous amount of carbon being released into the oceans and atmosphere.



The water in these subterranean chambers would not have contained carbon-14, as the water was shielded from cosmic radiation. This would have upset the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12.


To make carbon-14 dating work there has to be a balance in the amount of carbon.


Live mollusks off the Hawaiian coast have had their shells dated with the carbon-14 method. These test showed that the shells died 2000 years ago!



Keep in mind that I did say they were live.



It is much harder for me to believe in a date set by science then it is for me to believe in God.

There are no normally-occurring effects that change nuclear decay rates significantly. I did a master's degree studying that.

The complications of C-14 dating are well-known and are allowed for.

In any case, there are numerous other dating methods, and they agree within experimental uncertainties.

It seems that you have been lied to by unscrupulous preachers who count on people's ignorance to lead them astray.

 

[outhouse]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Let me do some more research lol[/FONT]

Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic - home page noahs-ark-flood.com

This is a pretty good place to start.

 

[outhouse]

Even the critics who specialize in this style of ancient literature say there is no evidence of literary borrowing, in fact just the opposite. They propose that they were referring to the same story.


.

YES

They are using the same regional flood legends and mythology.

HOW EVER, they were borrowing from these earlier versions.

We see a complete evolution of mytholoy from river flood to the sea, then global.


There is something you do not understand. Israelites did not exist before 1200 BC. Not one of the people mentioned in text existed prior to 1200 BC.

Not one has any historicity what so ever.

 

[outhouse]

I see the flood boys ignored the facts they cannot deal with.

Then we get on with these pesky facts you cannot refute with a ounce of credibility what so ever.

Not one credible college teaches global deluge 101 IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, theist included, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[outhouse]

It seems that you have been lied to by unscrupulous preachers who count on people's ignorance to lead them astray.

Exactly.


It is nothing but examples of intelectual incapacity.


They have to hypocriticaly trash credible science, yet whne they go to a hospital for any medical care, they beg for that same science to save their lives. They beg for evolutionary science to come up with the cure that gives them more time with their loving families

 

[outhouse]

So, those who disagree with your assertions are not only intellectually deficient but pernicious liars. Such personal attacks are not evidence, and do you no credit.

DO YOU have the credibility to denounce dating methods?


I didnt think so.


The current dating methods in use today are not up fro debate because a few right wing theist dont like it, all the while appealing to ignorance.