Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Bah humbug! 
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Does Christmas have anything to do with Christ?
- Thread starter Desert Snake
- Start date
kepha31
Active Member
Christmas is celebrated today as both a secular holiday and a religious holiday. Many get a paid holiday. To those who object to Christmas as being any kind of holiday, stop whining and go to work that day.
Pagan origins of Christmas is a fallacy, a constant drum beat over the last 100 years to where it's repetition has resulted in swaying public opinion, and not based on facts. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics, by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics, and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.
The Winter Solstice was NOT a Roman Civil holiday until the early 3rd Century AD. (272 A.D.) There was no fixed date for any winter solstice or Sol Invictus holiday. The Emperor Aurelian made December 25th a civil holiday because the Christians were already using it to celebrate the Birth of Jesus and he was trying to detract from the Christian celebration!
None of the Sun Cults used December 25th before then. It appears that the Winter Solstice was originally a CHRISTIAN feast that the pagans tried to paganize, not the other way around.
Pagan origins of Christmas is a fallacy, a constant drum beat over the last 100 years to where it's repetition has resulted in swaying public opinion, and not based on facts. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics, by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics, and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.
The Winter Solstice was NOT a Roman Civil holiday until the early 3rd Century AD. (272 A.D.) There was no fixed date for any winter solstice or Sol Invictus holiday. The Emperor Aurelian made December 25th a civil holiday because the Christians were already using it to celebrate the Birth of Jesus and he was trying to detract from the Christian celebration!
None of the Sun Cults used December 25th before then. It appears that the Winter Solstice was originally a CHRISTIAN feast that the pagans tried to paganize, not the other way around.
Can you back up your statement that "his followers always noted his birth" etc.
In what way did his followers "note" his birth?
Christ was first and foremost a Jew. Jews did not celebrate births. For purposes of keeping track of age the approximante date of conception was recongnized, not the day of birth. Jews never celebrated someones birth so why would his followers "note" his birth when NO ONE knew the date of his birth. Probably he was born sometime in Sept. as the shepards were still outdoors tending flocks. (read the Bible please)
Everything about our Xmass celebration is pagan in origins. Read up in any encyclopedia if you want to know the truth.
Fact is Xmass is so corrupted that a century or so ago in England celebrating the birth of Christ was ILLEGAL and if people were caught doing so they were jailed.
Why any knowlegable Xtian would celebrate Christs birth as a religious holiday is beyond my comprehension.
His DEATH is much more important and should be observed as his LIFE on earth was to die for our sins. The key word is DIE, shed his blood to save us from the wages of sin.
So how do we observe his death? We color eggs, put out plastic rabbits, and celebrate his Holy death by observing totally pagan fertility rights and spring solstice.
Satan has many clever ways to corrupt what is holy and beneficial.
Same thing with believing in a literal hell that never existed. Observing the notion of a hell where doomed sinners are tortured for enternity brings NO glory to God.
Hell is a completely pagan concept and has no place in Christianity.
The image of Dante's Inferno was a joke. Dante was an artist and playwrite that wrote " a Devine Comedy" describing a terrible place where codemned sinners go.
Do the research. Hell was a cosmic joke, not a real place.
It may interest you to know the ancient Jews had NO conception of a hell at all.
Remember tha Jesus was a Jew, so why would he invent a "hell".
yeah the word in the Bible but it's the wrong word and used wrong.
Check it out for youself please.
Xmass is also a cosmic joke. Jew would never celebrate a day of birth of anyone.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, and I won't, they mostly say the same thing.
We don't know exactly when Jesus was born.
We don't know exactly when Jesus died, except what the statements from Saul(Paul) state.
I'm not sure of anything that the Apostles said, if indeed they really said them.
But in the case of the Christmas celebration for Jesus' birth !
I, as much of the posts in this thread, disagree with the pretentious birthday.
Santa Claus in the chimney...oh yah...when the limb breaks...and falling babies and such.
Tales and mytholigies abound,
and here come Easter Bunny !
There's no flesh in heaven, and I really doubt that there is a God !
But somehow, I enjoy the holidays, and the yule tree, and the giving of gifts,
and the love shared by our family gathering to enjoy the mysterious spirits that linger.
Oh well....I do love it all.
~
'mud
We don't know exactly when Jesus was born.
We don't know exactly when Jesus died, except what the statements from Saul(Paul) state.
I'm not sure of anything that the Apostles said, if indeed they really said them.
But in the case of the Christmas celebration for Jesus' birth !
I, as much of the posts in this thread, disagree with the pretentious birthday.
Santa Claus in the chimney...oh yah...when the limb breaks...and falling babies and such.
Tales and mytholigies abound,
and here come Easter Bunny !
There's no flesh in heaven, and I really doubt that there is a God !
But somehow, I enjoy the holidays, and the yule tree, and the giving of gifts,
and the love shared by our family gathering to enjoy the mysterious spirits that linger.
Oh well....I do love it all.
~
'mud
Futurewasp
New Member
I think Christ has nothing to do with Christmas. Santa, Flying Reindeer, Robins - it's a surreal time corrupting children's awareness into demanding physical gifts. Ok so Christ was born but we all do that!
So hoping is now called demanding according to you.
samaelrocks
Member
Of course it was ripped off by early Christians. Puritans in the New England area in the 16th century outlawed any celebrations of it including decorations. Because it originated from pagans.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
From OP: "An idea from another thread, does Xmas have anything to do with Christ?"
It depends upon one's point of view.
Yes, even when the date is not known for sure, Jesus Christ did have a birth date. Because HE was prophesied to come for a specific mission---a date was appointed for that event.
Yes, With that event and the mission accomplished, the reason the Scriptural life of the "Christ"/"messiah" is remembered in HIS Death---for the Salvation of lost mankind.
Scripturally, it was Christ that gave to the world the gift of LIFE by being Born and then by HIS death.
No! because it is becoming more and more "Xmas" and secular oriented than as a remembrance of the birth of the ONE who is the Propitiation for the sins of mankind.---just as prophesied.
However, any reason to have families and friends gather and share the joys of living is welcome.
Evil doubting and surmisings will always be present---just the nature of some of mankind.
It depends upon one's point of view.
Yes, even when the date is not known for sure, Jesus Christ did have a birth date. Because HE was prophesied to come for a specific mission---a date was appointed for that event.
Yes, With that event and the mission accomplished, the reason the Scriptural life of the "Christ"/"messiah" is remembered in HIS Death---for the Salvation of lost mankind.
Scripturally, it was Christ that gave to the world the gift of LIFE by being Born and then by HIS death.
No! because it is becoming more and more "Xmas" and secular oriented than as a remembrance of the birth of the ONE who is the Propitiation for the sins of mankind.---just as prophesied.
However, any reason to have families and friends gather and share the joys of living is welcome.
Evil doubting and surmisings will always be present---just the nature of some of mankind.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Let's see--- the first lie of the serpent was "Ye shall not surely die".
The "Christ" had to be born (on that symbolic date) in order to be a propitiation for Eve's being deceived by that lie. Mankind could not die and still live.(Death is/was the penalty.) One who was innocent and able to take life again had to pay that price.
antichrist
New Member
Christians essentially stole December 25 from the Roman god Mithra who was said to have been born on that date. Mitathraism dates back over a 1000 years before the supposed birth of Jesus. A number of cultures followed its teaching, the Romans possibly the most resent. Christianity is nothing more that a corruption of many ancient cults dating back thousands of years. The real significance of December 25th is the celebration of the winter solstice.
Jesus was not an important person during his lifetime. He was nothing but a common rabble-rouser. Romans kept good records and there is no contemporary mention of him. He is really nothing more than a myth.
Xmas is a good excuse to gather friends and family. That is fine with me but don’t add a supernatural being to the day.
Jesus was not an important person during his lifetime. He was nothing but a common rabble-rouser. Romans kept good records and there is no contemporary mention of him. He is really nothing more than a myth.
Xmas is a good excuse to gather friends and family. That is fine with me but don’t add a supernatural being to the day.
Nada
#
No, pagan holidays crept into christianity making it counterfeit,better known as Christendom.Constantine was responsible for some of this.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Antichrist, you may claim that Jesus Christ was "no more than a myth", but there are many witnesses who attest to the contrary. Because you do not want to recognize the Scriptures, doesn't mean anything--but your own opinion.
Jesus Christ was born--because Dec. 25 was selected as a date for the unknown event---doesn't negate the birth nor HIS actuality.
BTW, "The December solstice is on either December 20, 21, 22 or 23 and is the shortest day of the year "
A lot of people were responsible for this. People have a way of letting their own personal opinions enter into their faiths, as well. People were following a different faith when they discovered Yeshua, they did not want to give up all of their customs, so they incorporated them into what we now call Christianity. We, as humans, do have a certain amount of discernment into this. We can read the Christian scriptures and then look at the practices of various denominations of the Church and can tell which ones actually came from Yeshua's teachings.
Nada
#
Didn't you just tell me....... Never mind. Anyway... Yes,when one compares what Jesus actually taught, to what people do in the world,one can separate the truth from the fake.
VitoOFMCap
Member
I got a notice in the email about this thread. I don't know why. Maybe they want me to buy a "premium membership" or something. Who knows...
The point is...I tried to not respond. No, seriously. I really tried. But so much about this discussion seems so aggressive, abstract, and ill-informed. So rather than tell you why I'm right (or you're wrong), just a few ideas to keep in mind:
1. The Christian narrative is unique because it disproves the dictum: "History is written by winners." From its beginnings, Christianity is rooted in failure: beginning with people of Judah being exiled by the Babylonians, the later occupation by Alexander, then Caesar. Jesus, the leader of an eschatological movement in the Jewish faith, is executed. Christian Jews are expelled from synagogues, and are considered enemies of the State by Rome. Yet in spite of ALL THAT, a group apparently founded by the failure of their faith in the Divine, the Christian message grows. It grows...bigtime.
2. Anachronism is real. Just because Christian history has a heavy hand in politics for most of its existence, it did not begin that way. The adoption of the winter solstice as the Feast of the Nativity should not be "deconstructed" as cultural appropriation. Also, it's wonderful that you have personal opinions; however pre-modern thought heavily demonstrates the individual as a member of a unit. And yes! The Jesus story, especially the infancy narratives, have a lot in common with other faiths. What you have discovered is not that someone "simply copied parts of other traditions," you've recognized literary authority from the perspective of the Ancient Near East. The Gospel of Matthew wants you to recognize Jesus within the Mosaic tradition. First century Palestine is neither the 18th century nor the 21st century. Please don't just Google then post.
3. Please stop referencing Scripture to people who clearly don't want to hear it. I know you mean well, brothers and sisters. Truly. I did this for years. But if the Bible is not a canonical norm for someone, repeating Isaiah's prophecy in 7:14 would offer little in the way of meaningful discourse. It's also pretentious. Look at it this way: it's like trying to convince your 85 year old grandfather, who's farmed all his life, that recursive programming is a more elegant solution. Either he's doesn't care, has no clue how it matters to his life, or he's actually done some research, thought about it, and has decided that nested loops are perfectly fine. Either way, your grandfather is is an intelligent person. So are those who don't believe in YHWH, Jesus, or who doesn't view the Biblical canon as a normative document. Proclaiming the Gospel involves much more than wielding the Word of God. Your exegesis is bad, and you should feel bad.
If I could offer anything to this conversation, it would be this: the idea of Χριστός or מָשִׁ֫יחַ is now associated with a man who may have been born in a manger and was executed as a state criminal. That memory has survived for over two millennia. It has been analyzed, critiqued, and even punished from various perspectives, yet it persists. If you don't want to acknowledge Christmas as the memorial of a Divine incarnation into the human experience, perhaps you can appreciate how the idea of a "King for the Lowly" speaks to the depravity in the world, and continues to speak of an ongoing reality, if it is something that is seriously and thoughtfully considered.
TLR- Go read Birth of a Messiah. Then read A Marginal Jew...at least the first 3 volumes. Then read The Historical Jesus. Read this thread again. If it makes you want to stab yourself in the head with a fruitcake, congratulations. You've transcended the Internet.
The point is...I tried to not respond. No, seriously. I really tried. But so much about this discussion seems so aggressive, abstract, and ill-informed. So rather than tell you why I'm right (or you're wrong), just a few ideas to keep in mind:
1. The Christian narrative is unique because it disproves the dictum: "History is written by winners." From its beginnings, Christianity is rooted in failure: beginning with people of Judah being exiled by the Babylonians, the later occupation by Alexander, then Caesar. Jesus, the leader of an eschatological movement in the Jewish faith, is executed. Christian Jews are expelled from synagogues, and are considered enemies of the State by Rome. Yet in spite of ALL THAT, a group apparently founded by the failure of their faith in the Divine, the Christian message grows. It grows...bigtime.
2. Anachronism is real. Just because Christian history has a heavy hand in politics for most of its existence, it did not begin that way. The adoption of the winter solstice as the Feast of the Nativity should not be "deconstructed" as cultural appropriation. Also, it's wonderful that you have personal opinions; however pre-modern thought heavily demonstrates the individual as a member of a unit. And yes! The Jesus story, especially the infancy narratives, have a lot in common with other faiths. What you have discovered is not that someone "simply copied parts of other traditions," you've recognized literary authority from the perspective of the Ancient Near East. The Gospel of Matthew wants you to recognize Jesus within the Mosaic tradition. First century Palestine is neither the 18th century nor the 21st century. Please don't just Google then post.
3. Please stop referencing Scripture to people who clearly don't want to hear it. I know you mean well, brothers and sisters. Truly. I did this for years. But if the Bible is not a canonical norm for someone, repeating Isaiah's prophecy in 7:14 would offer little in the way of meaningful discourse. It's also pretentious. Look at it this way: it's like trying to convince your 85 year old grandfather, who's farmed all his life, that recursive programming is a more elegant solution. Either he's doesn't care, has no clue how it matters to his life, or he's actually done some research, thought about it, and has decided that nested loops are perfectly fine. Either way, your grandfather is is an intelligent person. So are those who don't believe in YHWH, Jesus, or who doesn't view the Biblical canon as a normative document. Proclaiming the Gospel involves much more than wielding the Word of God. Your exegesis is bad, and you should feel bad.
If I could offer anything to this conversation, it would be this: the idea of Χριστός or מָשִׁ֫יחַ is now associated with a man who may have been born in a manger and was executed as a state criminal. That memory has survived for over two millennia. It has been analyzed, critiqued, and even punished from various perspectives, yet it persists. If you don't want to acknowledge Christmas as the memorial of a Divine incarnation into the human experience, perhaps you can appreciate how the idea of a "King for the Lowly" speaks to the depravity in the world, and continues to speak of an ongoing reality, if it is something that is seriously and thoughtfully considered.
TL
R- Go read Birth of a Messiah. Then read A Marginal Jew...at least the first 3 volumes. Then read The Historical Jesus. Read this thread again. If it makes you want to stab yourself in the head with a fruitcake, congratulations. You've transcended the Internet.MikeSavage
Active Member
The scriptures clearly indicate that Jesus birth was in fall when all had to go to the city of their birth for a census, and it clearly says that the shepherds were still living in the fields with the flocks. That wasn't done when it was below freezing. The climate is similar there to here in winter. There are other scriptures indicating the time of year, but it was DEFINATELY not January or December. This information is in the inspired word of God, and does NOT come from any religion (all of which are FALSE), and does not come from men or any interpretation, which God said belongs only to Him.
MikeSavage
Active Member
What people do in the world, is because they ignore God, His will, and are part of the world. Jesus taught all TRUE Christians (not anyone part of ANY religion) to be no part of the world. Anyone who is part of the world will be destroyed completely and permanently in the final battle in the Great Day of God the Almighty, Armageddon.