Does Death End it All?

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Permission ganted?....if you insist.

But consider that again.
The God (perhaps your God?) would be willing to stand back and allow His own Advesary to stomp you hard!

Kinda like watching your Best Friend having an argument with a large bully....
and then that large bully crosses the street headed your way!

Permission granted?......are you sure those are the terms prefered?

I think the Advesary (call him anything else you care to)....
was acting on his own, trying to prove himself greater than the least of God's servants.

What?.... you didn't notice the insult?

Lol yet you say that you don't follow dogma....

 

[2ndpillar]

What are your individual thoughts on death and where it takes us?

"The Sting of Death.
Death is an uncomfortable subject. Many people prefer not to talk about it. But sooner or later, we must confront it. And the sting of death is sharp and painful.
Nothing can fully prepare us for the loss of a parent, a spouse, or a child. A tragedy may strike unexpectedly or unfold relentlessly. Whatever the case, the pain of death cannot be eluded, and its finality can be devastating.

Antonio, who lost his father in a road accident, explains: “It is like somebody sealing up your house and taking away the keys. You cannot return home, even for a moment. You are left with only your memories. This is the new reality. Although you try to deny it—since it seems so unfair—there is nothing you can do.”

When faced with a similar loss, Dorothy, who became a widow at the age of 47, resolved to find some answers. As a Sunday-school teacher, she never felt that death ended it all. But she had no clear answers. “What happens to us when we die?” she asked her Anglican minister. “No one really knows,” he replied. “We will just have to wait and see.”

Are we condemned merely to “wait and see”? Is there any way we can know for sure whether death ends it all?

Read more...
The Sting of Death: Is Death the End?

Dear Jay,
Daniel, 12:2," And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

 

[JayJayDee]

Dear Jay,
Daniel, 12:2," And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

Yes 2ndpillar, this ties in with other parts of the Bible that speak about those who "sleep in death". The awakening is the resurrection. Jesus said "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

In order for Jesus to call people forth from their tombs, they must still all be in them.

Two groups receive a resurrection...both the "righteous and the unrighteous".
The 'resurrection of judgment' is so that those who never heard of Jesus and his sacrifice will have an opportunity to learn about the true God and alter their way of life to conform to his righteous standards. The wicked though are given no such hope. Those whom Jesus judges to be "goats" at the judgment time have no life to live any more. They are eliminated from existence because everlasting life is promised only to the righteous. In order to keep the wicked conscious to torment them eternally, God would also have to grant them everlasting life. There is no such hope in the Bible for anyone who rebels against God's righteousness.

Those resurrected ones who refuse to be corrected will undergo an immediate judgment. The "disgrace and everlasting contempt" is about their conduct, not them as persons individually, since the dead are not conscious.

Everlasting life in the Bible is contrasted with everlasting death, not everlasting torture.

 

[Thief]

Lol yet you say that you don't follow dogma....

That would be correct.
Perhaps you don't know the difference?

I rationalize and then choose what I believe.

I don't have congregation leading me to nod my head.

(Perhaps you might suggest which portion of my discussions are dogmatic?)

 

[idea]

We are more than the matter we are made up of, physical bodies decay, but our intelligence/conscience/mind/spirit is eternal. Everything has always existed (in one form or another) and everything will always continue to exist (in one form or another).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Permission ganted?....if you insist.

But consider that again.
The God (perhaps your God?) would be willing to stand back and allow His own Advesary to stomp you hard!

Kinda like watching your Best Friend having an argument with a large bully....
and then that large bully crosses the street headed your way!

Permission granted?......are you sure those are the terms prefered?

I think the Advesary (call him anything else you care to)....
was acting on his own, trying to prove himself greater than the least of God's servants.

What?.... you didn't notice the insult?

What?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

That would be correct.
Perhaps you don't know the difference?

I rationalize and then choose what I believe.

I don't have congregation leading me to nod my head.

(Perhaps you might suggest which portion of my discussions are dogmatic?)

Well your talk of an adversary to god is rather dogmatic.

 

[Thief]

Well your talk of an adversary to god is rather dogmatic.

No such thing as 'nay' saying?
You would then offer that we humans were the first to do so?

 

[thau]

What are your individual thoughts on death and where it takes us?

"The Sting of Death.
Death is an uncomfortable subject. Many people prefer not to talk about it. But sooner or later, we must confront it. And the sting of death is sharp and painful.
Nothing can fully prepare us for the loss of a parent, a spouse, or a child. A tragedy may strike unexpectedly or unfold relentlessly. Whatever the case, the pain of death cannot be eluded, and its finality can be devastating.

Antonio, who lost his father in a road accident, explains: “It is like somebody sealing up your house and taking away the keys. You cannot return home, even for a moment. You are left with only your memories. This is the new reality. Although you try to deny it—since it seems so unfair—there is nothing you can do.”

When faced with a similar loss, Dorothy, who became a widow at the age of 47, resolved to find some answers. As a Sunday-school teacher, she never felt that death ended it all. But she had no clear answers. “What happens to us when we die?” she asked her Anglican minister. “No one really knows,” he replied. “We will just have to wait and see.”

Are we condemned merely to “wait and see”? Is there any way we can know for sure whether death ends it all?

Read more...
The Sting of Death: Is Death the End?

Seems to me you have brought up two distinctive subjects or points here.

#1. Yes, the loss of a loved one can often be unspeakable grief. How we all wish this could be avoided.

#2. Yes, we can know that there is life after death. God is not nearly as unknown as some of your peers may want you to believe. The signs are everywhere for all generations. No one has to be an educated pupil to understand this. God also promises heaven to almost anyone who would sincerely want it. I might point out "actions speak louder than words."

So point #2 does not take away the sorrow in point #1 but helps, as it most assuredly gives promise and hope.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

No such thing as 'nay' saying?
You would then offer that we humans were the first to do so?

The omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent creator has an adversary? How is that different from the belief in Christian theology that the omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent creator has an adversary?

And why would you say that is correct compared to Judaism that points out that Satan is not Gods adversary?

 

[Thief]

The omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent creator has an adversary? How is that different from the belief in Christian theology that the omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent creator has an adversary?

And why would you say that is correct compared to Judaism that points out that Satan is not Gods adversary?

Are you answering the question or just jumping to the next?
No one said 'nay' before Man?
The angelic just nod their heads continually?

Read Job?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Are you answering the question or just jumping to the next?
No one said 'nay' before Man?
The angelic just nod their heads continually?

Read Job?

Yes they do.

I have read Job. Even greater proof that God is in control. The Lord God visits good and evil makes it rain on the righteous and evil.

 

[Thief]

Yes they do.

I have read Job. Even greater proof that God is in control. The Lord God visits good and evil makes it rain on the righteous and evil.

Not sure about that evil makes it rain part.

 

[JayJayDee]

We are more than the matter we are made up of, physical bodies decay, but our intelligence/conscience/mind/spirit is eternal. Everything has always existed (in one form or another) and everything will always continue to exist (in one form or another).

Could I have some scripture to back that up please idea?

Where does it say that a conscious part of man survives the death of the material body and continues to live on somewhere else?

 

[Sees]

Could I have some scripture to back that up please idea?

Where does it say that a conscious part of man survives the death of the material body and continues to live on somewhere else?

If the soul goes when the body does what is the point of Matt 10:28?

 

[JayJayDee]

Seems to me you have brought up two distinctive subjects or points here.

#1. Yes, the loss of a loved one can often be unspeakable grief. How we all wish this could be avoided.

There is a reason why we wish this could be avoided....it was never meant to happen. Humans are not 'programmed' for death like animals are. If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed that one command in the garden...they would still be alive today, (Gen 3:3) they would be young and healthy and enjoying life in paradise conditions with all their offspring. There would have been no sickness, no aging and no death if sin had not entered the world through that one act of disobedience. (Rom 5:12)

#2. Yes, we can know that there is life after death. God is not nearly as unknown as some of your peers may want you to believe.

Statements without something to back them up are a bit useless on a debate forum thau. There is no afterlife spoken about in the Bible except by resurrection in the flesh, for the majority of mankind. (John 5:28, 29)

The signs are everywhere for all generations.

What 'signs' would that be?

No one has to be an educated pupil to understand this. God also promises heaven to almost anyone who would sincerely want it.

That is not really true. God did not choose to take everyone to heaven...in fact only a limited number will ever go there. These will make up a ruling body with Christ in his kingdom. They are specifically chosen by God for this role. It is a 'heavenly calling'. (Heb 3:1)

If Adam had not disobeyed his Father, no one would ever have gone to heaven. Jesus' sacrifice would not have been necessary and no kingdom would have needed to reconcile mankind back into an acceptable relationship with God. (2 Cor 5:19, 20)

I might point out "actions speak louder than words."

Absolutely. :yes: (James 2:18, 19)

So point #2 does not take away the sorrow in point #1 but helps, as it most assuredly gives promise and hope.

I agree that we need hope and comfort because of #1. But understanding why death takes place explains why we that need hope and comfort. The fact is, the Bible does not teach your #2. Understanding God's original purpose for the earth and man upon it explains everything. There is no immortal soul because man did not need one.

Living forever in paradise on earth was possible because God had another 'tree' in the garden that guaranteed that life would never end. Once man became sinful, access to that tree was permanently denied. (Gen 3:22-24)

When Jesus' friend Lazarus died and was laid in his tomb, Jesus said he was "sleeping" (John 11:11-14) He said he was going to 'wake him from sleep'.
Where was Lazarus before Jesus woke him up? If he had gone to heaven, then Jesus was doing him no favors by bringing him back to the problems of this life, only to get sick or old and die again.

The 'soul' that was Lazarus was brought back to life in the flesh. Every single resurrection performed in the Bible was back to life on earth, reunited with loved ones.

This is the hope and promise.

 

[JayJayDee]

If the soul goes when the body does what is the point of Matt 10:28?

What do you understand Matt 10:28 to say Sees?

"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na."

Look carefully.

Man can kill the body but the "soul" is the person, not some shadowy thing that lives inside a shell. The personality of the person is tied up with his brain. When brain death occurs, the soul is dead. (Ezek 18:4) But that is not the end of that soul. He is "killed" but not "destroyed"
.

The only way for a person (soul) to be brought back to life is by resurrection. (John 5:28, 29)

If God chooses not to bring a soul to life again...they have been destroyed in "gehenna"...which is often incorrectly translated as "hell". Like the lake of fire, gehenna is a place from which no one returns.

 

[ruffen]

I don't mean to be negative towards your discussion, because it is interesting to watch and learn what other people think.

But... how can anyone today care what a man possibly named Matthew believed about the afterlife all those centuries ago? Of course, if he got divine influence to say what he did, then that's cool and all, but how does anyone "know" that this stuff is from divine influence and not just Matthew's personal Iron Age beliefs?

Because Matthew says so himself? Because someone else said so about Matthew? Because Matthew is an authority and we just take his word for it? That same Matthew who listed the geneaology of Jesus from which it follows that only a few thousand years have passed since the first human, which we today know is just false? Is this the Matthew who we let form our beliefs about the afterlife, or should we investigate it with an open mind and follow the evidence wherever it leads?

Is there a good reason to believe that he knew more about neuroscience, biology and chemistry than modern-day scientists? The question of an immortal soul that goes on after death is a scientific one, and let's face it, Matthew has enough obvious blunders that we shouldn't take his word as truth when it comes to questions of life and death.

 

[Thief]

I don't mean to be negative towards your discussion, because it is interesting to watch and learn what other people think.

But... how can anyone today care what a man possibly named Matthew believed about the afterlife all those centuries ago? Of course, if he got divine influence to say what he did, then that's cool and all, but how does anyone "know" that this stuff is from divine influence and not just Matthew's personal Iron Age beliefs?

Because Matthew says so himself? Because someone else said so about Matthew? Because Matthew is an authority and we just take his word for it? That same Matthew who listed the geneaology of Jesus from which it follows that only a few thousand years have passed since the first human, which we today know is just false? Is this the Matthew who we let form our beliefs about the afterlife, or should we investigate it with an open mind and follow the evidence wherever it leads?

Is there a good reason to believe that he knew more about neuroscience, biology and chemistry than modern-day scientists? The question of an immortal soul that goes on after death is a scientific one, and let's face it, Matthew has enough obvious blunders that we shouldn't take his word as truth when it comes to questions of life and death.

Are you asking....how can we accept the word of someone so long dead?

But you could answer the same questions for yourself.
Or do you refrain because you doubt....even yourself?

At some point you could decide in favor of life after death.
Beyond that point you could specualte what it will be like.

OR...go the other way altogether and turn to dust when your chemistry fails.

 

[ruffen]

Are you asking....how can we accept the word of someone so long dead?

But you could answer the same questions for yourself.
Or do you refrain because you doubt....even yourself?

At some point you could decide in favor of life after death.
Beyond that point you could specualte what it will be like.

OR...go the other way altogether and turn to dust when your chemistry fails.

I don't expect anyone to believe me because I'm me or because I'm some kind of authority with a hotline to the man upstairs. I try to argue based on observable evidence, which points toward the fact that we are physical beings.


You make it seem like one can choose to "decide in favor of life after death", or "turn to dust when your chemistry fails". But if I'm correct, you cannot choose this. We all turn to dust when our chemistry fails - but some refuse to face that prospect because it makes them afraid. It makes me afraid too sometimes, but the Universe is the way it is whether I like it or not.

The point is that if one lives one's life like there is a foreverness of bliss coming, one may not live life to its fullest, but if one lives life like this is all there is, then any afterlife will just be a nice surprise. It's kind of a reverse Pascal's Wager.