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Does evolution have a purpose?

Does evolution have a purpose

  • yes

    Votes: 17 32.1%
  • no

    Votes: 30 56.6%
  • not sure

    Votes: 6 11.3%

  • Total voters
    53

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
What you are saying is that we have more scientific knowledge.
That is true.

Then he is correct.

..but are our souls somehow safer?

What do you mean? And what does that have to do with today's knowledge being more expansive then yesterday's?

Where are we headed?

The future.

Are you one of these people who think that we can avert climate-change and war?

I don't think we can. I'm absolutely certain that we can.
If we will though, is another question.

That it is within our capabilities to do so, is pretty much a given in my opinion.
Whether we will also do what needs to be done to accomplish it, is another story.

Ironically, especially when it concerns climate change, it's dogmatic faith based belief that forms the biggest obstacle. Anti-science minded conspiracy nutcases who don't even believe it is occurring and/or don't believe that human activity is the cause of it.

And then off course there is also the oil industry which will do whatever it can to slow it all down and continue selling their black gold for as long as possible.

Oil companies, ironically, have known that their industry was going to be an extreme problem for climate as far back as the 60s and 70s. The allmighty dollar was more important to them though.

Are you one of these people who say that there is nothing after death, while enjoying the fruits of worldly knowledge?

The thing that is after death seems to be the same as there is before being born.
Which seems to be non-existence.

I didn't exist for 13.7 billion years before I was born.
It didn't bother me.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What you are saying is that we have more scientific knowledge.That is true.
Yep. Knowledge gleaned by following the scientific method.

..but are our souls somehow safer?
How do we know we have a soul?

Where are we headed?
Into the future.

Are you one of these people who think that we can avert climate-change and war?
Avert? Probably not. Mitigate? Hopefully.

Are you one of these people who say that there is nothing after death, while enjoying the fruits of worldly knowledge?
I'm one of those people who says I don't know what happens after death and neither does anybody else.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I don't ignore things.
I evaluate them.

Please.

I don't need to believe one way or the other about something that is said to have occurred millions of years ago.
It seems that many people do. :oops:

The facts are what they are, whether you accept them or not.

DNA allows for determining kinship and bloodlines, and thus ancestry - regardless of how long ago the shared ancestor lived. Whether you like that or not.

It matters not if it was 50 years ago, 3000 years ago, 300.000 years ago, 7 million years ago or 350 million years ago.

The facts remain the same. The underlying principles according to which this genetic determination works, remains the same.

Obviously the further related 2 individuals are, the older the common ancestor of both will be.

Not sure why you seem to have emotional problems with it when it passes a certain age.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
The facts are what they are, whether you accept them or not..
No. It's all a conspiracy.
People rightly claim things as fact.
..and then they add things and insist they are also facts, because that's what "we are told by science".

Sorry .. I don't buy it. I think for myself.
I honestly don't care what you think.
I care what G-d thinks.
I'm fairly sure G-d won't mind if I say I don't know what happened
millions of years ago :)
 

gnostic

The Lost One
No. It's all a conspiracy.
People rightly claim things as fact.
..and then they add things and insist they are also facts, because that's what "we are told by science".
Science relied on physical evidence that are not only testable, but that verify strong scientific models and refute weak models.

(Note that “model” can either be a new “hypothesis” or a current “scientific theory”. If there are enough evidence, current theory be updated/modified, expanded, or even replaced by better tested alternative.)

The quantities of evidence provide the basis of empirical data, and depending if it support model or refute model. The evidence and data are what provide model, level of objectivity.

What you’ve said below in your post:

Sorry .. I don't buy it. I think for myself.
I honestly don't care what you think.
I care what G-d thinks.
I'm fairly sure G-d won't mind if I say I don't know what happened
millions of years ago :)

...this is allowing your personal preference and personal belief to dictate your subjective decision to accept or reject a model, not based on the evidence. That’s your “bias” talking here.

Science are based on evidence. Evidence are fact, and that’s what determine the validity of scientific theories, not personal beliefs or preferences.

And you don’t know what god think. No one knows.

Scriptures are not “god”. God isn’t made of papers, parchment or vellum. And scriptures aren’t science treatises - not the Jewish Torah, not the Christian gospels or not your Islamic Qur’an.

All of them, every single ones of them, abrahamic and pagan texts were written by humans, based on hearsay, and often embellished with myths and fables.

To think god wrote any of these scriptures, are false and pretentious claims. And revering as if they were holy, and treating these man-made texts as if they were infallible and inerrant like god, is a form of idolatry.

There are no scientific merits in any religious texts.

In the Qur’an, claiming that jinns are beings made of smokeless fire, are examples of false belief in myth. The claim that King Solomon understand the languages of birds and ants, are nothing more than fable or children fairytale. And the claim that Adam was created from clay and water, is just more storytelling.

There are no science in any of these 3 claims by Muhammad. And if you think god is the true author of the Qur’an, then god is author of myths, fables and fairytale. So I don’t think god was author of your Qur’an.

The Qur’an contain no knowledge of biology, not of humans, animals or plants, no knowledge of DNA and genetics.

So for you to reject modern biology, you care what your god think on the basis of the Qur’an, then you certainly don’t understand biology.

Good luck with remaining blissfully ignorant, while hiding behind scriptures.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No. It's all a conspiracy.
People rightly claim things as fact.
..and then they add things and insist they are also facts, because that's what "we are told by science".

No idea what you are talking about.

Sorry .. I don't buy it. I think for myself.

You think for yourself. The problem is that you are willfully ignorant when it comes to this subject and thus you are unable to come to an informed conclusion.

When you stuff your ears and scream "LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA" while the facts are presented, then off course you might miss them.

Note how you not once actually bothered to respond to the facts and explanations given. Not once did you explain WHY you think it's incorrect. HOW you think it's wrong.

Instead, only handwaves and 110% ignoring of the points made. Even literally removing them from the parts you quote from posts. It's very telling. And quite arrogant, I might add.

I honestly don't care what you think.

In fact, it seems like you ONLY care about what YOU think and what you believe religiously.
You shouldn't care what I "think".

But you might want to care that the facts of science disagree with what you think and believe.
That is, if you actually care about being justified in your beliefs off course...

If you don't care about potentially holding on to false beliefs... well... then there's really no point to having any kind of discussion with you, about anything, in the first place.

Trying to reason with the willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest is about the biggest waste of time one can engage in.

I care what G-d thinks.
I'm fairly sure G-d won't mind if I say I don't know what happened
millions of years ago :)

If this god would be a just and reasonable god, I'ld expect that he would care a great deal about being willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest.

If I were him, I'ld say "I gave you this brain and intellect and capacity of rational reasoning... why aren't you using it?"
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Good luck with remaining blissfully ignorant, while hiding behind scriptures.
Ignorant?
Please explain to me how not knowing with any certainty what happened millions of years ago makes a person ignorant?

You see, this is why I suggest it's all a conspiracy.
People's insistence that science has proved something happened millions of years ago is a fact, and if you don't believe it you are ignorant makes me highly suspicious.
I have every right to be highly suspicious.
It is not necessary for me to believe that
any more than it is for you to believe in G-d :)

I'm not denying that evidence shows us that "bla bla",
I'm just saying that I couldn't give a momkeys 's. :D

Who cares?
Atheists care. They think that it's smart to show that Genesis is fiction.
As far as I'm concerned, it is pointless conjecture.
G-d can do whatever He wills.
Atheists are atheists because they want to be atheists.
..and not because "the evidence shows that ..."
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ignorant?
Please explain to me how not knowing with any certainty what happened millions of years ago makes a person ignorant?

It's not just a matter of not knowing. You have made it crystal clear that it's not a matter of just not knowing. It's a matter of flat out denial of factual knowledge.

You see, this is why I suggest it's all a conspiracy.

Which is just nuts, I'm sorry to say.

Events of the past leave evidence that can be studied in the present.
Evolution is no exception.

The evidence is all there. Denial won't make it go away. Screaming "conspiracy" won't accomplish that either. Instead, it will only make you look willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest.

People's insistence that science has proved something happened millions of years ago is a fact, and if you don't believe it you are ignorant makes me highly suspicious.

Nobody asked you to believe it.
Science doesn't expect mere belief. In fact, mere belief would actually be unscientific.
Science requires understanding.

But you aren't even willing to give the evidence and facts an honest look. Instead, you look away, deny it all and scream "CONSPIRACY".

Not once have you explained your motivation. Not once have you explained your objections.
Not once have you even remotely attempted to respond to any of the points raised.

It's all just handwaving while waving (your interpretation of) scripture.


Who cares?
Atheists care.

1.there are more theists who accept evolution then there are atheists in the entire world. Those theists also care (about holding as much true beliefs as possible and minimizing the amount of false beliefs).

2. Knowledge, is its own reward


They think that it's smart to show that Genesis is fiction.

Nobody is talking about genesis here. The topic is science. Specifically, biology.
If (your interpretation of) genesis is incompatible with the science, then (your interpretation of) genesis is incorrect.

Or otherwise put: when your beliefs don't match the facts of reality, it's not reality that is incorrect.

Atheists are atheists because they want to be atheists.

No.

..and not because "the evidence shows that ..."

True.

The actual reason why *I* am an atheist, is because nobody has given me any valid reasons to be any kind of theist.

See, I actually require evidence to convince me.
It's for the same reason that I don't believe in undetectable dragons.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
The problem is that you are willfully ignorant when it comes to this subject and thus you are unable to come to an informed conclusion..
I have no desire to come to any conclusion.
I don't claim to know what happened millions of years ago.
Whilst I find the possibilities of what might have happened interesting, I have no interest as you seem to have, of insisting
that any particular series of events are a fact.

If you don't care about potentially holding on to false beliefs...
You are getting carried away now..
Would that be my "false beliefs" about G-d creating the universe? ;)
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
See, I actually require evidence to convince me..
I understand that we need some kind of evidence for a particular religion or creed.

However, if one claims that mankind is so smart, and they can show how it is possible for our existence being a "just so" story .. then no.
A person who does that cannot find spiritual truth, until they change their attitude.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I have no desire to come to any conclusion.
I don't claim to know what happened millions of years ago.

This doesn't add up.

If what you say here were true, you wouldn't have engaged in this conversation and instead just said "could be, I don't care", instead of continously denying it all and claiming it to be some "conspiracy".

So your behavior throughout this conversation, doesn't match your claim here.

You are getting carried away now..
Would that be my "false beliefs" about G-d creating the universe? ;)

Your denial of the facts of genetics.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Not really..

Yes really

It is not something that can be verified by observation.

This entire conversation I have been showing you otherwise.
The workings of genetics and our collective DNA = very observable.

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

It is an application of biology, that theorises what might have happened millions of years ago.

It demonstrates what DID happen.

Just like it demonstrates that you and your cousins share an ancestor.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I understand that we need some kind of evidence for a particular religion or creed.

Religions notoriously are allergic to evidence. That's why they require "faith" instead.

However, if one claims that mankind is so smart, and they can show how it is possible for our existence being a "just so" story .. then no.

It's religious myth that are the "just so" stories.
Science demonstrates its claims with evidence. There's nothing "just so" about it.

A person who does that cannot find spiritual truth, until they change their attitude.

That assumes that there is such a thing as "spiritual truth".

The fact of gravity isn't impacted by my, or anyone else's, "attitude".
Facts of reality never are.

Stories that are indistinguishable from imagination however...always are.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
If what you say here were true, you wouldn't have engaged in this conversation and instead just said "could be, I don't care"
I've said that a few times, but it seems to be your religion and you are insisting that if I don't believe it, I am ignorant ;)

Your denial of the facts of genetics.
You just twist things to suit your agenda.
I am not denying genetic facts. It is you who have a complex about this subject.

I do not care whether I am related to a gorilla or a snake.
I know that I am a human, and NOT a gorilla or snake. ;)
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I've said that a few times

In the same breath as screaming "conspiracy" and rejecting the facts.
You also post quite a lot in a topic you supposedly don't care about.

So excuse me if I'm having some troubles believing you when you say that you "don't care".
Your behavior says otherwise.

, but it seems to be your religion

That's ridiculous.
And also a bit hilarious, as you say this as if it is somehow a bad thing to clinge to a religion. Quite ironic, wouldn't you say....

and you are insisting that if I don't believe it, I am ignorant ;)

I never once used the word "believe".
The reason you are (willfully) ignorant is because you obviously are ignorant concerning this subject and categorically refuse to learn about it.

You just twist things to suit your agenda.

What is being twisted? What agenda?

I am not denying genetic facts

You are. As has been explained so many times already. And not just by myself.

It is you who have a complex about this subject.

I'm just having a discussion on the topic. It's what the forum is for.

I do not care whether I am related to a gorilla or a snake.

You obviously care enough to reject and deny it, for no other reason then it being incompatible with your a priori religious beliefs, apparently.

I know that I am a human, and NOT a gorilla or snake. ;)

Nobody said otherwise.
I am related to my sister. That doesn't mean I am my sister.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You obviously care enough to reject and deny it, for no other reason then it being incompatible with your a priori religious beliefs, apparently..
No.
It is the other way round.
I have no beliefs about how G-d created life.
It doesn't affect me.

You, on the other hand, don't believe in G-d.
You therefore wish us all to believe that life "created itself" :)
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Ignorant?
Please explain to me how not knowing with any certainty what happened millions of years ago makes a person ignorant?
Ignorant in the sense of not wanting to understand the science, not willing to be educated in science and learning from your mistakes in regard to the natural reality, which in this case, biology.

Didn’t you say that you didn’t care what other people think, that you only care about god and what god think?

The Qur’an may be able to teach you how to act and how to treat others, but the things that your Qur’an cannot teach you, are natural sciences (these include physics, chemistry, biology, Earth science and astronomy).

How do you learn these sciences?

You definitely cannot learn sciences in the Qur’an. And god cannot teach them, since you are no prophet or messenger. So there are no ways for two-way communication, between you and god.

You can pray, but does he ever directly talk to you?

And if he can’t talk to you then God cannot teach you. And if god don’t talk to you then you certainly don’t know what god thinking about.
 
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