Does evolution have a purpose?

[gnostic]

You refer to the history from studying fossils.

If you are going to talk about “history” and about time being a million or more years, than to that extent, yes, I would be talking about humans, but not about Homo sapiens.

Homo sapiens, as I have already mentioned, have only been around 200,000 years.

The Homo erectus and Homo ergaster have been around a lot longer. It is they who invented the earlier stone tools and discovered how to make fire for warmth and cooking.

This is all “prehistory”, not real history in the strictest sense, because I have told you before, “history” usually concern with time when writing became available.

You cannot talk about 1 or 2 million years about humans and expect written history to be available at these time.

With “prehistory”, people have to rely on archaeology (the study of structures or artifacts) and on paleontology (study of fossils).

But let me remind you that paleontology don’t just focus on human fossils; paleontology is the study of all fossils, eg animals, plants, and even bacteria (which usually referred to as “microfossils”).

It is not an exact science.

Again, whilst it is interesting, I don't consider it to be definitive.
eg. it can show us how mankind came to be

Exact...

Religious texts, like the Qur’an and Bible, are never exact...PERIOD!

Especially when dealing texts that use symbolic or metaphoric writing, to convey some resemblance of meaning.

In the Qur’an, Allah creating Adam from clay and water, “not exact”. Nor does it show “how mankind came to be”.

To be brutally frank, the Qur’an’s story is nothing more than embellished fantasy that are unrealistic, unnatural and just plain wrong, relying on nonexistent deity with nonexistent magic.

It doesn’t matter how you interpret the creation of Adam, as literal or as metaphor, both interpretations are wrong.

Plus, the acceptance of Qur’an required a person’s FAITH in the BELIEF of creation to be true, are also “not exact”.

Beside that, the evidence...

• ...the fossils (paleontological evidence),
• the tools used that were made from bones of animals, and from stone and flint (archaeological evidence),
• plus the corresponding location and environment of where these fossils and tools were found (geographic evidence and geological evidence)...

...all provide enough evidence to point to precise moments of when these prehistoric people died.

I said “precise”, not “exact”.

You would date the following separately, the fossils, any tools near the bodies, the rocks where the fossils were found, etc. if the tested dates are close enough to each other (hence “precision”), then these evidence would collaborate with one another.

If you have ever understood (or studied) science, paleontology and archaeology/history, you would know that precision is the best you can get, rather than trying aiming for accuracy and exactness.

And I may not be expert in the Qur’an, but I do remember when reading the Qur’an, it never provided number of years, so providing exact dates as to WHAT happened WHEN, it is impossible with the Qur’an.

And this is why there are only vague chronological orders in the Qur’an. This is probably because Muhammad (as an author) was incompetent with numbers and maths, so there are no dates in the Qur’an, as to WHAT event happened WHEN or as to WHO lived WHEN.

Being “exact” isn’t the Qur’an’s strong suit.

 

[rational experiences]

In the human past science says human consciousness as modern behaviour did not exist In a mutated life. Ape like human.

Human however the genesis type. As a human teaching about humans as humans.

Humans hence cannot own natural memory in their ancient past life. As a modern conscious human.

Does he know how he thinks he used to think?

The memory is not distinguishable in a conscious bio chemical human modern life.

So. Scientist human wants to make some guesses.

If the being conscious human had been sacrificed it no longer existed.

Was the past human typified in earths heavens stories.

Science said evolution was O sealed bodies. Not reactive reaction bodies.

O God rock.

A human said I was given by genetic advice dominion. Bio evolution complete. Human.

There is no other evolution.

As we human survive by sex and how the heavens supports life.

So de evolution became a Scientific subject also.

For the heavens to go back in time it is without ice as a time shifting heavens state.

Is modern days scientific new theory let's time shift.

God O earth never ever went back in time it disappears consumed of it's rock body.

Became with space. Emptied out.

So science said let me de evolve earths saviour back to a satanic state of no ice when only giants roamed the earth.

I never wanted small I wanted giant.

So he told me.

G he said is O natural flow cooling movement. Heavens protection.

IAnt...anti by G. Giant.

I know what I mean. The theist scientist said. I will remove cooling.

As science gains metal as his machine by burning melt. Hot gases.

He now wants de evolution alien metals as heaven machines.

He told the stories aliens want to eat humans as food.

Evolution as theoried by human men with machines who want life eradicated.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you have ever understood (or studied) science, paleontology and archaeology/history, you would know that precision is the best you can get, rather than trying aiming for accuracy and exactness.

And I may not be expert in the Qur’an, but I do remember when reading the Qur’an, it never provided number of years, so providing exact dates as to WHAT happened WHEN, it is impossible with the Qur’an.

Yes .. the Qur'an does not tell us anything about exactly how or when human life was created.
It is you who claim to know that, through scientific analysis of fossils.

I think that the lines between fact and guesses are blurred.
I don't deny that things evolve. It is quite obvious that they do.

 

[gnostic]

It is you who claim to know that, through scientific analysis of fossils.

I think that the lines between fact and guesses are blurred.
I don't deny that things evolve. It is quite obvious that they do.

Sorry, but that someone (not you, but your prophet, Muhammad) who believe in supernatural phenomena in the Dark Ages fantasy (Qur'an) and who claimed unnatural things can exist and can happen (eg creation of Adam, Solomon understanding the speeches of ants, the existence of jinns, etc), that are lacking in evidence.

All we have, is that Muhammad believe in myths and have his stories embellished even more ridiculously than the Bible.

I don’t see the Qur’an being better than the Bible; it is just more unrealistic and half the time he was incoherent with his messages.

Yes .. the Qur'an does not tell us anything about exactly how or when human life was created.

It is because the prophet himself don’t know, it is why that the Quran is a book of confused myths. A person who don’t understand nature.

For a clay and water to be moulded into shape, turning clay into flesh and bones, and brought to life, would required magic, that isn’t natural and couldn't possibly happen, tells me that Muhammad believe in fairytale.

If anyone or anything is confusing fairytales as facts, it is your prophet and his Qur’an.

 

[muhammad_isa]

@gnostic
You are not replying to my post. You are just stating that you don't believe the Qur'an.
That is not a reason in itself, to believe that things evolve without cause or reason.

 

[gnostic]

@gnostic
You are not replying to my post. You are just stating that you don't believe the Qur'an.
That is not a reason in itself, to believe that things evolve without cause or reason.

My original post that you reply to, I didn’t bring up fossils...you did.

Do you remember when I was defining two versions of the word “history”?

You were saying about millions of year and you were talking about history.

I only one definition is about “history” referring to the ability to write or develop a writing system, as “history”, as to oppose to “prehistory”, which is before the invention of writing.

The 2nd definition, like “human history”, pertained to the use of archaeology on all Homo species, which not only include Homo sapiens, but also to the Neanderthals and Homo erectus.

My point in that post, was about using archaeology for human history, since there are no writings BEFORE 5500 years ago.

I didn’t bring up fossils when I gave you those 2 definitions, until you had replied.

Here was my original post:

Let’s be clear on something.

I have never studied history in the education capacity, meaning I am not a qualified historian, and my college routes was in civil engineering in the mid-80s & computer science in the late 90s.

But I do have interests in history, archaeology and in mythology, and I have researched them in my own time, especially ancient or classical history.

History is a broad term, and can have multiple meanings.

In the strictest sense, HISTORY referred to WRITTEN historical accounts, which is to distinguish from a much longer period before the invention of writing systems, thus the prehistoric period, therefore PREHISTORY.

So in that context, “history” mainly covered the literate civilizations/societies/cultures, like Early Bronze Age Egypt & Sumer. I don’t if contemporary civilization in the Indian subcontinent have writings at this time (from 3100 - 2000 BCE).

With PREHISTORY, only archaeological sites and artifacts can be studied and examined, since there are no writings before 5500 years ago (or 3500 BCE).

Then history can be used in the broader sense, for example, “human history”.

In this case, it means everything, regardless if there are writings or not. This would not include the Homo sapiens, but also other Homo species, like the Neanderthals and the Homo erectus (this Homo erectus were the ones who know how to make fire).

So if you are talking about history as with the development of writing systems, then you are talking about less than 5500 years ago.

But if you referring to “human history”, then the earliest Homo sapiens presence is about 200,000 years, while the earliest Homo erectus about 2 million. The older Homo habilis about 3.3 million years ago.

So which “history”, are you referring to?

Do you see, there’s nothing about fossils?

But you sidetracked me with this:

You refer to the history from studying fossils.
It is not an exact science.

Again, whilst it is interesting, I don't consider it to be definitive.
eg. it can show us how mankind came to be

People are free to make their own conclusions from any evidence
that we find.
I don't believe that there is evidence that shows us how non-human life slowly evolved into human life.
However, even if such evidence truly exists, it still doesn't affect my faith in G-d.
It is more than a passing thought in my mind.
It is my whole life.

It is not dependent on any physical reality whatsoever.

I was talking about the time without writing, when history cannot be “recorded”, you would use archaeology to research the past.

Archaeology involved in studying man-made objects, like tools, metallurgy to make tools, farming equipment, pottery, ornaments, figurines, paintings (including materials use, eg charcoal, ochre, pigment, efor drawing or painting), funerary customs, graves, tombs, shafts, etc.

There are also structure like buildings, building materials, as well as town planning, cities, towns and villages, etc.

During the Paleolithic periods, all Homo species, lived nomadic lifestyle, hence the needs for hunting and gathering, making and using tools made from stone, flints, animal bones and wood or sticks. Then there are ornaments, like stone figurines of Venus and cave painting.

The Homo erectus discovered how to make fire. I am quite sure fire was used for warmth, but it can be used to harden sharpened sticks, to be used as spears. But did they use fire for cooking?

Had I am not being sidetracked with the whole fossils things, I would have talked more about archaeological evidence, because I did bring up history as written history, but what of the rest of “human history”, the PREHISTORY?

You did let me expand on my points, particularly when I am not a biologist or paleontologist, I would have talked more about history and archaeology, and less on biology.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Had I am not being sidetracked with the whole fossils things, I would have talked more about archaeological evidence..

..and the point being?
Do you believe that there is no distinct point in time when "a man" appears in the history of planet earth?
Do you believe that there is no difference between a man and other creatures, except for that which has evolved over time?

 

[gnostic]

..and the point being?
Do you believe that there is no distinct point in time when "a man" appears in the history of planet earth?

The point being, you talk of "history", which is recording certain events.

And I wanted to find with you to which history you was talking about -

1. "written history",
   
2. or "non-written history" or "human history", where people have to rely solely on archaeology.

There are distinctions between the two.

Do you believe that there is no difference between a man and other creatures, except for that which has evolved over time?

And Evolution is solely biological.

Do you not remember I am not a biologist, nor a paleontologist?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm not speaking from that platform..
I don't know what happened millions of years ago.

I don't have to take somebody's word for it, if they claim that they do.
Why should I? For what reason? Is science somehow Holy?

You don't have to just take anyone's word for it. You can view the evidence for yourself. Such is the beauty of science!

 

[muhammad_isa]

You don't have to just take anyone's word for it. You can view the evidence for yourself..

Yes, and can make my own conclusions.
..as can anybody else.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, and can make my own conclusions.
..as can anybody else.

Except you haven't done that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Except you haven't done that.

I beg your pardon?
Are you saying that my conclusions on the subject are wrong because I haven't given you a detailed series of events that occurred millions of years ago?

 

[night912]

I said I don't know.
Furthermore, I don't care what happened millions of years ago.
I don't care how G-d created human beings.
I just know that He did

I'm not denying that creatures have evolved.
It makes no difference to me exactly how, or the details.
Why should it?

Why would you ask that question if you're a Muslim? One of the fundamental teachings of Islam is the quest for knowledge. Why wouldn't you want to gain more knowledge?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why wouldn't you want to gain more knowledge?

Gain more knowledge of what?
I'm not living millions of years ago .. I'm living now.

I am interested in history .. but I think we have to be realistic.
I don't think that we can categorically know how human beings evolved.

If you think that the evidence shows us exactly how we evolved, then that is your claim.
I personally don't believe it.

 

[metis]

I don't think that we can categorically know how human beings evolved.

We know in general how and why we evolved the way we did.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We know in general how and why we evolved the way we did.

Do we?
We know that human beings evolve.
We know the mechanism involved i.e. dna
We have some knowledge of fossils.

..regards the precise details, we can only guess.

 

[metis]

Do we?

Well, those of us in anthropology at least do.

We know that human beings evolve.
We know the mechanism involved i.e. dna
We have some knowledge of fossils.

Yep.

..regards the precise details, we can only guess.

In science, we don't "guess"-- instead, we have hypotheses that rely on evidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In science, we don't "guess"-- instead, we have hypotheses that rely on evidence.

You speak as if science belongs to you.
Science is merely a tool. It is dumb.
It is the conclusions that are important.

I have a some knowledge of statistics. I know how science can be misrepresented.

 

[ratiocinator]

We know that human beings evolve.
We know the mechanism involved i.e. dna
We have some knowledge of fossils.

..regards the precise details, we can only guess.

No matter how many times you assert this, it is simply untrue. Genetic evidence puts the evolutionary relationships between different species way beyond reasonable doubt.

It just looks like you've decided that you don't want to know and so are avoiding copious amounts of solid evidence.

 

[night912]

Gain more knowledge of what?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking because you can only gain more knowledge if that knowledge is not those in which you currently possessed.

I'm not living millions of years ago .. I'm living now.

You weren't living hundreds of years ago either, so why did you decide to gain more knowledge about the Quran, a book written hundreds of years before you were even born.

I am interested in history .. but I think we have to be realistic.

Why would you be interested in anything before you were born......you're living now and not those many years ago?

I don't think that we can categorically know how human beings evolved.

Please clarify what you mean by "categorically know."

If you think that the evidence shows us exactly how we evolved, then that is your claim.

No, not once did I ever made that claim. And it's not a claim if the evidence does show how the mechanism of evolution works. You however, are claiming the opposite. So until you can can provide a rational explanation why those evidence are not valid, why deny the evidence?

I personally don't believe it.

Your personal beliefs have no bearing on the facts.

What's your scientific reason for rejecting it?

Here's a interesting article that relates to current state of mind regarding the Theory of Evolution. I'm presenting this particular article because so far, the reasons that you've provided for rejecting the theory is based on your current beliefs and not scientific reasoning.

Qur’anic Guidance
As with any other issue, we as Muslims need to look at the guidance of Allah and his messenger (peace be upon him) and not answer the above questions according to our own ideas. There is no doubt that the Qur’an encourages thinking as mentioned in the following verses:

“Do you not think?” (Surah Saffaat 37:138)

“Do they not reflect?” (Surah Al-Ar’aaf 7:184)

“And when they are told to follow what Allah has revealed, they respond, ‘no, we will follow what we found our forefathers doing.’ Even though their forefathers did not understand nor were they guided,” (Surah Baqara 2:170)

“And when they are told ‘come towards what Allah has revealed and to his messenger.’ They reply, ‘No, what our forefathers did is enough for us,’ Even though their forefathers did not know anything nor were rightly guided,” (Surah Maa’ida 5:104)

“Indeed in that are signs for people who ponder,” (Surah An-Jaathiyaat 45:13)

At the same time, the Qur’an makes it quite clear that Allah and his messenger need to be obeyed at all times and there is no room for opposing the Qur’an and Sunnah based on our own logic, as is clear in the following verses:

“Oh you who believe, obey Allah and his messenger and the people of authority from you, and if you dispute in any matter then refer it to Allah and his messenger, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day…” (Surah Nisaa 4:59)

“It is not befitting a believing man or woman, when Allah and His messenger decree a matter that they have any say in it, and whoever disobeys Allah and His messenger has gone far astray,” (Surah Al-Ahzaab 33:36)

“Whatever the messenger gives you, take it and whatever he prohibits you from, stay away from it…” (Surah Al-Hashr 59:7)

The first set of verses promote thinking while the second set promote following, thus showing that the Islamic understanding is a balance between knowing which issues we should consider different views on and which issues are rigid and fix.



The Limits

Unfortunately today, being open minded is very loosely defined and is used to attack anyone who doesn’t see or consider our viewpoints, even if our viewpoints are flawed or deviant. Based on the above verses, we can define the Islamic limits of keeping an open mind as follows:

1) We should have an open mind towards anything which is not related to the religion.

If it is a discussion of some worldly subject which doesn’t oppose any of the teachings of Islam, then there is nothing wrong in discussing and considering it. This may seem obvious to some but there still exists a group of Muslims who regard studying worldly sciences like medicine, psychology and biology as Haraam. The general principle in Islam, regarding things of this world, is that everything is Halal until proven Haraam so that applies to studying this world as well.

2) There is no room for differences in issues explicitly stated in the Qur’an and Sunnah and agreed upon by Islamic scholarship.

There are things which are implied or understood from the Qur’an and Sunnah and then there are things which are explicitly stated and agreed upon. While the former are the area in which differences are acceptable, the latter are areas in which we should submit wholeheartedly.

These days the term Ijma (consensus) is thrown about too easily by different groups to win their arguments and often quoted on issues which don’t have consensus. Nonetheless, on the actual few issues which do have consensus there is no room for difference of opinion, and being rigid on these issues is not being narrow-minded, it is being Muslim (submissive to Allah).

3) Keep an open mind when dealing with legitimate differences of opinion

Keyword here is legitimate because the reality is that in today’s world, everything seems to be subject to a difference of opinion. A legit difference of opinion is one that either existed among the early scholars (if it is an old issue) or an issue in which contemporary Mujtahids differ (if it is a new issue). In such issues, it is important for Muslims to have an open mind and consider different opinions, without forcing their views upon others.
- Source