Does Free Will Exist?

[Trailblazer]

There's a consequence for everything. Why would there not be one if free-will did not exist?

There would be a consequence because all actions have consequences, but there should not be a punishment unless one exercised their free will. If someone is legally insane they did not act freely because one needs to have a rational mind to act freely.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Consciousness is a state. It cannot be an illusion if it's a state.

Consciousness is a state of matter and that is all it is.

 

[Jos]

That is true. All I meant to say is that people who believe that they have free will are more likely to exercise their free will to change.
That does not mean that people who do not believe in free will will act impulsively or immorally. Because they have free will, whether they believe it or not, they will make choices and depending upon their values they will choose one way or another way.

I'm ultimately agnostic about the free will question. I think it's debatable whether or not humans possess it. I don't think it's an open and shut case of "yes we have free will because we feel as though we have it" since many human intuitions have been shown to be wrong before so I don't know either way whether or not humans have free will. Plus, free will can be very poorly defined too at times, so that further hinders progress on figuring out it if it's real or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we had absolute free will then shouldn't we be able to make any choice we want to without needing help from anyone whether it's dealing with anger ie. simply choosing not to be angry anymore or simply doing what a God wants you to do without needing help from God to submit to Him?

Nobody has absolute free will.
Nobody can do “anything” they want to do. Free will is constrained by many factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free we are varies with every given situation we find ourselves in. However, we have the ability to make choices within parameters. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity. If humans did not have free will how could we be responsible for our actions and held accountable in a court of law?

It is not as easy as doing what God wants you to do because we cannot know exactly what God wants us to do. It is a mind state, a willingness to allow God to help rather than trying to control everything yourself. Then help just comes.

 

[charlie sc]

but there should not be a punishment unless one exercised their free will.

These are all assertions. I could just say the opposite.

Do pets or animals have free-will?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm ultimately agnostic about the free will question. I think it's debatable whether or not humans possess it. I don't think it's an open and shut case of "yes we have free will because we feel as though we have it" since many human intuitions have been shown to be wrong before so I don't know either way whether or not humans have free will. Plus, free will can be very poorly defined too at times, so that further hinders progress on figuring out it if it's real or not.

Free will is just the ability to make choices. I think people make more out of it than it is. They overthink it. We all know that we make choices, such as if we are going to college, get married, have children, etc.

On a more mundane level, I have to choose if I am going to keep answering posts all night or go get dinner.

Some things we are not free to choose, such as what parents we would have, where we would grow up, what heredity we would have, whether we would have a car accident or an illness. We are not responsible for anything we could not choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

These are all assertions. I could just say the opposite.

Do pets or animals have free-will?

These are all just obvious to me, but I understand that we all come from different backgrounds and belief systems, and have different life experiences.

No, animals do not have free will because they operate on instinct. Humans have free will because we have a rational mind, which is associated with the soul. Animals do not have a soul, they have an animal spirit.

 

[Willamena]

Consciousness is a state of matter and that is all it is.

It does matter, yes.

 

[charlie sc]

No, animals do not have free will because they operate on instinct. Humans have free will because we have a rational mind, which is associated with the soul. Animals do not have a soul, they have an animal spirit.

Alright.

How would you treat a pet that behaved badly?

Also, how would you treat a new pet you acquired that was feral or abused?

 

[Enoch07]

"Why couldn't you choose to cope with it instead of taking drugs?

I thought I explained it thoroughly.

I'll add to what I said above in post #169

A couple of reasons as to why.

1. I was young and drugs were readily available. Part of my abuse was being forced to distribute drugs. If I didn't bring home the "correct" amount of money that was expected a beating would occur. So I learned to hustle the hustlers and game the system to provide the required money needed, but also some profit to "buy" drugs from myself. I'll plead the 5th for further information on hustling.

2. When you live in a world of constant fear mental abuse is the norm, physical abuse for mistakes, and sexual abuse when its deemed necessary (not to be graphic, but my 5 year old booty was traded to a 40 year old man in exchange for drugs.) But also I was abused by a female "babysitter" who was in charge of me after school. She would perform fellatio on me, which I blocked out for years and didn't discover until therapy. But anyways, when this is your entire world and you know nothing else, rationality is not your go to mindset. You are in survival mode and one does what one must to survive by any means possible in this type of situation. I've been forced to break people or be broken myself. Do you know what that you can feel someone's bones break when you smash them with a baseball bat? Eventually you begin to crave that sickening thud and crunch. It still sends raises the hair on my arms in excitement to even think about it. That's the mindset you learn to live in to survive. Drugs was an easy "out".

Now I'm not trying to be difficult, but coming from having a horrific childhood myself and having suffered thru many harsh difficulties in later life, "escapism" never even entered my mind, so am just trying to understand why someone would turn to taking drugs rather than just doing their best to deal with what is before them.

Everybody deals with it different. Some people go on to recreate the abuse in others. Luckily I didn't fall into this category. And unless provoked I am quite nice and bit of a pushover. but provoke me and I will unleash hell.

And I believe the raging anger comes from all the unfair abuse that I had no control over as a child. And so as an adult everything that didn't go "my" way would make me fly into a rage trying to re-gain control of the "unfair" situation. But lots of self-hypnosis telling myself that most of it really doesn't matter, solved that issue for me.

I've done tons of therapy and anger management. I use what I can to help me. But at the end of the day it's all about me controlling myself and keep my anger in check. Difficult path to walk because sometimes you truly are wronged and I either fly of the handle with too much, or i just pack it down and bottle it up. Neither are good for me. Must constantly manage, manage, manage.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Without free will we would not be able to DO anything. Free will is circumscribed by many factors, so we cannot DO anything we want to DO. For example, I cannot be a doctor just because I want to be a doctor; I'd have to have the money for medical school and the intelligence.

Not so fast!

If you/someone REALLY wanted to be a doctor they could do whatever it took to earn/save up enough money and get a doctors degree. Many, many, people muster up and follow their dreams. Many now famous actors tell of working at low paying jobs, eating out of dumpsters, living in their cars, etc, doing whatever it took to hold on until they FINALLY passed an audition and got their start. Others work two or three jobs to earn/save enough to get into a college and get various degrees. And intelligence has nothing to do with getting a degree, all one has to is memorize things long enough to pass tests.

People are responsible for their moral choices unless they are mentally ill or mentally challenged.

And I think that's going to be Trumps best defense.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

It does matter, yes.

By matter I meant physical substance.

 

[Enoch07]

If we had absolute free will then shouldn't we be able to make any choice we want to without needing help from anyone whether it's dealing with anger ie. simply choosing not to be angry anymore or simply doing what a God wants you to do without needing help from God to submit to Him?

No

You can't chose to magically not be angry.

You can't chose to not be gay, or straight.

You can't chose to shoot laser beams out of your eyes either.

Free will is about the ability to chose from what you can change. Not being ability to change whatever you want.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmm well a little bit of all. Within the last year I have bought a house, and bought myself a new Mustang to please my material happiness.

If those things make you happy and you can afford them there is nothing wrong with that. We all need to live somewhere and most people need a car. I love Mustangs but all we have is an old Honda Prelude that needs a paint job badly and a Honda CRV that only gets out of the driveway once every two weeks.

Spiritual happiness comes in hanging out with and sometimes but not always discussing the Bible with my cousin, who is more like a brother.

Well it is sure nice to have someone like that. I lost my only sister to cancer about 15 years ago. I have a husband though and he just signed up for this forum about an hour ago.

Peace of mind is very important and the Lord helps me with that.

I am glad to hear that. I am not very close to God but I would like to be.

Same, but at the time I quit I was an atheist. So the appeal to a higher power never appealed to me at the time.

I didn't find God for another 10 years or so. But I've been thankful ever since.

I am glad to hear that. it sounds like you have been through a lot. I have also been through a lot but my problems now are not emotional, they are associated with the material world. Three houses engenders a lot of stress.

This is true. But also I am stubborn child of the Lord. I am sure I frustrate Him greatly sometimes. But when I do drift, I usually learn my lesson in a harsh way, and come back home to rest, and He forgives me and we carry on. I try my best to give over my will to Him, but I also tend to fight back time to time. My judgment day may be rough for me!

I do the same and feel exactly the same way.

 

[Ancient Soul]

These are all just obvious to me, but I understand that we all come from different backgrounds and belief systems, and have different life experiences.

No, animals do not have free will because they operate on instinct. Humans have free will because we have a rational mind, which is associated with the soul. Animals do not have a soul, they have an animal spirit.

You've obviously never spent much time with a dog.

 

[Trailblazer]

Alright.

How would you treat a pet that behaved badly?

Also, how would you treat a new pet you acquired that was feral or abused?

I would try to work with a pet who behaved badly by loving and caring for it.
I would do the same with a feral or abused pet.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not so fast!

If you/someone REALLY wanted to be a doctor they could do whatever it took to earn/save up enough money and get a doctors degree. Many, many, people muster up and follow their dreams. Many now famous actors tell of working at low paying jobs, eating out of dumpsters, living in their cars, etc, doing whatever it took to hold on until they FINALLY passed an audition and got their start. Others work two or three jobs to earn/save enough to get into a college and get various degrees. And intelligence has nothing to do with getting a degree, all one has to is memorize things long enough to pass tests.

I was just giving an example to illustrate that we cannot always do what we want to do just because we want to...
Free will has many constraints.

And I think that's going to be Trumps best defense.

It might be his only defense...

 

[Trailblazer]

You've obviously never spent much time with a dog.

No, I am a cat person.
See my avatar?
We have 10 Persian cats.
My husband just signed up on this forum tonight and he also has a cat for an avatar...
You can see where our sentiments lie -- on sofas, chairs, and beds, wherever cats are present.

 

[charlie sc]

I would try to work with a pet who behaved badly by loving and caring for it.
I would do the same with a feral or abused pet.

Yes and those are good methods for behaviour change. Punishment is the worst kind of behavioural change. So, treating animals with care and love(positive reinforcement) if they behave badly or were abused works even though they don't have free-will. Hurting an abused and badly behaved pet would probably cause more problems.

For arguments sake, let's say humans have free-will. If prisoners were punished(pain and suffering) instead of treated with care and positive reinforcement, then this should be an effect way to change them, because they do have free-will and they had a choice to do otherwise. Therefore, they would learn to choose the alternate choice. This is kind of treatment is called punitive justice. However, this is not what we find. We find prisoners that are treated humanely, with care, and given rehabilitation priority(positive reinforcement) have the least recidivism rates in the world. Just like abused pets and badly behaved pets, criminals usually have had traumatic childhoods with abusive and/or neglectful parents.

So, even though, apparently, one has free-will and the other doesn't, the same method works on both

 

[Enoch07]

However, you cannot choose not to be a drug addict or prone to taking drugs. As a previous and strong coping mechanism, you cannot wish it away as much as you could choose another start. And this is what is meant by no free-will.

Oh I chose to be a drug addict. There is no doubt about that. I wasn't born addicted to drugs. I didn't even like pot the first time I tried it. I had to develop a taste for it, and I did amongst other things.

But you are right in that you cannot just wish away drug addiction. But the only way to get clean and to stay clean, requires making that choice. It is harder for some than others, maybe even an impossible choice for some to make it's that hard, but nobody else can break you free from addiction (not legally anyway).

You may have been lucky or had the fortitude to change, but other people might not have. Other people might be stuck in their position until they die.

You speak truth that I cannot deny.

And you thinking they could have done otherwise puts a disservice to them, because you are then assuming they could have chosen otherwise, where it may be they can't.

No, I recognize some people will/have/do die daily. And I don't look down on them or judge them.

My cousins brother in law who was just 23 years old died of a heroin overdose a few weeks ago after moving to another state to escape his drug friends here. In an attempt to get clean and stay clean. He did good for awhile. He was even on the news and shared his story because he shot heroin with a celebrity shortly before she died from overdose not so long ago.

Did you want to change because you've had enough? Why did you refuse giving into it anymore?

I changed when I woke up from a extra crazy party one morning. I found my brother in the full bathtub blue as the tile on the wall. He had gotten overheated (from some X) during the party and ran a cold bath, then passed out.

It was winter time and we chose to spend our money on dope and liquor instead of paying the gas bill, so no heat. Mind you we was living in a 1960's model single wide trailer that was trashed. We had to get him out and start trying to warm him up (luckily he was still breathing but just barely) I called an ambulance and he survived.

I was like "Ok that was effed up. I can't do this anymore." And so began the long hard journey of rehab, relapse, rehab, therapy, and anger management, then another small relapse, then back to clean but alchohol still allowed, and now no drugs or alchohol, and it sucks cause I could really use some Jameson right now.