Does Free Will Exist?

[Skwim]

There is no way for you to prove that they could not have done otherwise so it is just a theory.

Proof is only relevant to mathematics, logic, and alcohol.

And so that makes it okay to take a human life?

It does? Boy I sure don't think so.

The clergy is not what I mean by religion. If people follow the teachings and laws of the revealed scriptures they cannot be immoral.

And when they don't follow them they are immoral.

The actions of those clergy who commit child abuse go against their religion.

And so much for religion being the reigning source of morality.

It is Unbelievable to me that you say that. If we had no choice we would just be like programmed robots.

If you had read some of my previous posts in this thread it shouldn't be unbelievable at all.

Acting instinctually is acting according to our physical desires.

This whole thing is rather difficult for you, isn't it. Here's hoping it improves.


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[Ancient Soul]

I thought I explained it thoroughly.

I'll add to what I said above in post #169

A couple of reasons as to why.

1. I was young and drugs were readily available. Part of my abuse was being forced to distribute drugs. If I didn't bring home the "correct" amount of money that was expected a beating would occur. So I learned to hustle the hustlers and game the system to provide the required money needed, but also some profit to "buy" drugs from myself. I'll plead the 5th for further information on hustling.

2. When you live in a world of constant fear mental abuse is the norm, physical abuse for mistakes, and sexual abuse when its deemed necessary (not to be graphic, but my 5 year old booty was traded to a 40 year old man in exchange for drugs.) But also I was abused by a female "babysitter" who was in charge of me after school. She would perform fellatio on me, which I blocked out for years and didn't discover until therapy. But anyways, when this is your entire world and you know nothing else, rationality is not your go to mindset. You are in survival mode and one does what one must to survive by any means possible in this type of situation. I've been forced to break people or be broken myself. Do you know what that you can feel someone's bones break when you smash them with a baseball bat? Eventually you begin to crave that sickening thud and crunch. It still sends raises the hair on my arms in excitement to even think about it. That's the mindset you learn to live in to survive. Drugs was an easy "out".



Everybody deals with it different. Some people go on to recreate the abuse in others. Luckily I didn't fall into this category. And unless provoked I am quite nice and bit of a pushover. but provoke me and I will unleash hell.



I've done tons of therapy and anger management. I use what I can to help me. But at the end of the day it's all about me controlling myself and keep my anger in check. Difficult path to walk because sometimes you truly are wronged and I either fly of the handle with too much, or i just pack it down and bottle it up. Neither are good for me. Must constantly manage, manage, manage.

Sorry, I only saw the post I replied to and although I went back a couple of pages to try finding your original comments, I got lazy and gave up.

Thanks for replying though, it will give me a lot to ponder upon.

My life had been changed forever during a childhood OBE/NDE with what God had shown me and discovered I had many spiritual gifts upon being returned to life. And these spiritual gifts gave me the inner strength and abilities to survive until I was old enough to leave home. A few times some freaky/miraculous things happened to my "Call to God" for help. Like the time my mother tried to drown me in the bathtub, and as soon as I thought "How am I going to get out of this "one"? There was a flash of white light and some force pulled me away from trying to push against my mother's hands, spun me around, and I suddenly found myself standing at the other end of the bathtub looking at my mother's bewildered face because she couldn't understand how I "disappeared". And when she saw me standing at the other end of the tub she looked kind of scared of me which gave me enough time to run into my room, and for some reason didn't come after me. And to add to the strange happening, I wasn't even wet! So that is why I find it hard to relate or understand why others use drugs or booze, my life is just too different which makes it hard to relate to how others use such things to "hide" their problems.

 

[charlie sc]

Oh I chose to be a drug addict. There is no doubt about that. I wasn't born addicted to drugs. I didn't even like pot the first time I tried it. I had to develop a taste for it, and I did amongst other things.

But you are right in that you cannot just wish away drug addiction. But the only way to get clean and to stay clean, requires making that choice. It is harder for some than others, maybe even an impossible choice for some to make it's that hard, but nobody else can break you free from addiction (not legally anyway).



You speak truth that I cannot deny.



No, I recognize some people will/have/do die daily. And I don't look down on them or judge them.

My cousins brother in law who was just 23 years old died of a heroin overdose a few weeks ago after moving to another state to escape his drug friends here. In an attempt to get clean and stay clean. He did good for awhile. He was even on the news and shared his story because he shot heroin with a celebrity shortly before she died from overdose not so long ago.



I changed when I woke up from a extra crazy party one morning. I found my brother in the full bathtub blue as the tile on the wall. He had gotten overheated (from some X) during the party and ran a cold bath, then passed out.

It was winter time and we chose to spend our money on dope and liquor instead of paying the gas bill, so no heat. Mind you we was living in a 1960's model single wide trailer that was trashed. We had to get him out and start trying to warm him up (luckily he was still breathing but just barely) I called an ambulance and he survived.

I was like "Ok that was effed up. I can't do this anymore." And so began the long hard journey of rehab, relapse, rehab, therapy, and anger management, then another small relapse, then back to clean but alchohol still allowed, and now no drugs or alchohol, and it sucks cause I could really use some Jameson right now.

I like you and your honesty. You're cool.

Your approach to free-will is refreshing and down to earth. You gained your experience by staring into the abyss and the abyss stared back. Nonetheless, most people don't experience anything like this and will judge others harshly, because they have not suffered and if they have they blame others for their suffering. Then, this notion of free-will helps stigmatise people and makes people's life even more horrible than it needs to be. This is all I have to comment on what you've said, but, in any case, you're cool

 

[We Never Know]

This 15 minute video, Why Free Will Doesn’t Exist, was posted to me by an atheist I have been posting to on another forum. I do not agree with him that we do not have free will. Below is the gist of his argument. The first two paragraphs below are a summary of what is in the video and the last paragraph is this atheist’s personal opinion.

What makes free will an illusion is that the choice you make will always be either the choice to do what you most want to do (even when it overrides your wanting to do something else) or the choice you don't want to make but are forced to make.

We like to think that we have free will, that we could make choices other than the ones we make. However, free will -- the ability to have acted differently -- is an illusion. No matter what choice you ever made, you never really had the ability to have chosen differently.

Since free will is an illusion, it's also nothing but a lame excuse for certain problems that theists run into, for example, why a good god would allow evil to exist.​

I disagree. Free will most certainly does exist. It's why we are able to have different opinions, different actions, different thoughts, different everything. We all are free to chose, think, act, and do as we feel we should or want to. That is freewill. It's nature given, not god given.

 

[Ancient Soul]

No, I am a cat person.
See my avatar?
We have 10 Persian cats.
My husband just signed up on this forum tonight and he also has a cat for an avatar...
You can see where our sentiments lie -- on sofas, chairs, and beds, wherever cats are present.

Ah, so THAT is why you stated:

"No, animals do not have free will because they operate on instinct. Humans have free will because we have a rational mind, which is associated with the soul. Animals do not have a soul, they have an animal spirit."

Now if you had been around dogs much and really got to understand them, you would NEVER say such a thing.

But actually all animals think, so have some free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes and those are good methods for behaviour change. Punishment is the worst kind of behavioural change. So, treating animals with care and love(positive reinforcement) if they behave badly or were abused works even though they don't have free-will. Hurting an abused and badly behaved pet would probably cause more problems.

For arguments sake, let's say humans have free-will. If prisoners were punished(pain and suffering) instead of treated with care and positive reinforcement, then this should be an effect way to change them, because they do have free-will and they had a choice to do otherwise. Therefore, they would learn to choose the alternate choice. This is kind of treatment is called punitive justice. However, this is not what we find. We find prisoners that are treated humanely, with care, and given rehabilitation priority(positive reinforcement) have the least recidivism rates in the world. Just like abused pets and badly behaved pets, criminals usually have had traumatic childhoods with abusive and/or neglectful parents.

So, even though, apparently, one has free-will and the other doesn't, the same method works on both

I see no reason why prisoners should be punished (subjected to pain and suffering) while in prison because being in prison is the punishment for the crimes. It makes no sense to me that more punishment would give a positive result, not anymore than mistreating an animal would give a positive result.

Just because they had free will does not mean they were fully free to do anything they wanted to do. Remember what I said, that free will is constrained by many factors, including childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. The punishment must take all factors into consideration.

 

[Trailblazer]

And when they don't follow them they are immoral.
And so much for religion being the reigning source of morality.

You cannot blame the religion for what people choose to do or not do with the religion.

If you had read some of my previous posts in this thread it shouldn't be unbelievable at all.

I meant that figuratively, not literally.

This whole thing is rather difficult for you, isn't it. Here's hoping it improves..

It is not difficult for me at all. The improvements have already taken place.

 

[Enoch07]

. Then, this notion of free-will helps stigmatise people and makes people's life even more horrible than it needs to be.

I understand how and why you feel this way. While I disagree, I will not debate it with you any further. I respectfully agree to disagree.

I like you and your honesty. You're cool.

Thank you

The only thing I'm better at than impressing people is disappointing them. So hang around. You might change your mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah, so THAT is why you stated:

"No, animals do not have free will because they operate on instinct. Humans have free will because we have a rational mind, which is associated with the soul. Animals do not have a soul, they have an animal spirit."

Now if you had been around dogs much and really got to understand them, you would NEVER say such a thing.

But actually all animals think, so have some free will.

That all depends upon how you define free will and soul.

Dogs are probably more like humans than cats are.
I would not go so far as to say that dogs are more intelligent than cats, but.....
Some of the dog rescues are just amazing.
Dogs are probably more selfless than most humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonetheless, most people don't experience anything like this and will judge others harshly, because they have not suffered and if they have they blame others for their suffering.

Most people so not have a clue so there is no point even talking to them about it.
Rarely do we find people who have not suffered understanding human suffering.
You seem to have a lot of compassion, this is laudable.

Sometimes I sound rather harsh but I am not really that harsh... There are two sides to me; the one that wants justice and the one that has compassion...

I understand about the prisoners.... A couple of weeks ago, I was in the bank and a customer was in the line next to my line. He was talking to the bank teller about how happy he was because he had not had the occasion to be in a bank cashing a check for about 10 years. That bank teller didn't get it but I did and I started to cry. I knew from the way he was talking that man had just been released from prison and he was so grateful and so happy just to be out and living a normal life. I was never in a prison but I know what it is like to be released from my own prison. I was so happy for that man. He did not want anything, he was just grateful for what he had. It makes me mad the petty things some people complain about, they have no clue what real suffering is and they will never understand.

 

[osgart]

As a child?


So, you adapted your standards to what worked and what didn't. And that was dependant on?


Seems like you couldn't go back even if you wanted to choose to

I find it humorous how people think they are the absolute ruler of their will. When, in fact, psychology and psycho-analyses demonstrably shows how we're all prone to the same cognition and desires. I personally know people who say they're in control of their emotions and will, however, under close examination, they're not even close. The people who claim control are probably the most influenced by their desires. They just don't realise it.

Why would i choose against my choice when i am freer in the choice i made?

My desires is what i like about me. I do not desire what i do not want. And i desire what i do want. Thats the freedom.

Im not slave to my desires. I am content with the desires i got. They are quality desires. They dont lead down paths i do not like. Im free to be me and it harms nothing. Free will.

 

[syo]

What do you think makes you eat an apple over a turd for instance?

That's the point. You choose sth over sth else. You can eat both. How you act varies on decisions.

 

[charlie sc]

I see no reason why prisoners should be punished (subjected to pain and suffering) while in prison because being in prison is the punishment for the crimes. It makes no sense to me that more punishment would give a positive result, not anymore than mistreating an animal would give a positive result.

Just because they had free will does not mean they were fully free to do anything they wanted to do. Remember what I said, that free will is constrained by many factors, including childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. The punishment must take all factors into consideration.

I think that's a healthy view of free-will

Most people so not have a clue so there is no point even talking to them about it.
Rarely do we find people who have not suffered understanding human suffering.
You seem to have a lot of compassion, this is laudable.

Sometimes I sound rather harsh but I am not really that harsh... There are two sides to me; the one that wants justice and the one that has compassion...

I understand about the prisoners.... A couple of weeks ago, I was in the bank and a customer was in the line next to my line. He was talking to the bank teller about how happy he was because he had not had the occasion to be in a bank cashing a check for about 10 years. That bank teller didn't get it but I did and I started to cry. I knew from the way he was talking that man had just been released from prison and he was so grateful and so happy just to be out and living a normal life. I was never in a prison but I know what it is like to be released from my own prison. I was so happy for that man. He did not want anything, he was just grateful for what he had. It makes me mad the petty things some people complain about, they have no clue what real suffering is and they will never understand.

What a wonderful and heartfelt story. Thank you. I understand the need and want for justice can be powerful. And I think this is why justice is blind. Anyway, yes, compassion is important to me

 

[charlie sc]

Why would i choose against my choice when i am freer in the choice i made?

My desires is what i like about me. I do not desire what i do not want. And i desire what i do want. Thats the freedom.

Im not slave to my desires. I am content with the desires i got. They are quality desires. They dont lead down paths i do not like. Im free to be me and it harms nothing. Free will.

Are you immune to the influences of others or your own unconscious desires that you may not realise?

 

[Nimos]

That's the point. You choose sth over sth else. You can eat both. How you act varies on decisions.

Im not saying you are wrong, but merely trying to argue the guy in the videos case.

If you ignore your ability to choose for just a second, Do you then see his point when he say that the reason you want to eat an apple rather than a turd is because there is something that makes you want to eat the apple more?

Now if we remove the want for a second and only look at the ability to choose. So there is no difference in how much you want to eat the apple over the turd. Then there would be no logical reason why people would choose to eat an apple more times than they would choose a turd. So if you took 100 people and let them choose between eating an apple or a turd, it would be close to 50/50 how they would choose, wouldn't you agree with that?

Now combining the two, since we know that people wouldn't choose to eat a turd as much as they would want to eat an apple. Something besides choosing need to influence how people end up making their choice. So before you are even put to the task of choosing and expressing your free will, the desire to eat an apple is already much higher than the desire to eat a turd. But what causes the desire to eat the apple more than the turd is not something that you have chosen through free will. Now you do have the option to try to taste a turd if you wanted to, to see if it might actually taste better than an apple, but even though you haven't done that to make that comparison, you still desire the apple more.

 

[Koldo]

That's even funny!

Although to be honest, I have no idea how spiritually broken people think/decide if they even do. But other than emergency split second decisions, everything I do takes varying amounts of thinking/deciding.

So you are saying that if you like something it just magically happens with absolutely no conscious thoughts on your part?

And if something better comes along you just as magically happen to like that thing more without any comparison or thinking/deciding which you like better?

Strange that!

I do consciously compare things. But I don't get to choose which I like the most. Suppose, for example, that you were to ask me whether I am taller than my sister. I would certainly consciously compare my height with my sister's, but this assessment wouldn't involve any choice. The same applies when you ask me what ice cream flavor I prefer.

Please reread your comment until it sinks in that you just contradicted yourself.

First you claim "I don't remember ever choosing to like something over anything else."

Then you claim that "I would just compare the experiences."

Here, maybe this will help:

choose
verb act on one's own authority, adopt, appoint, be disposed to, be resolute, be so minded, co-opt, commit oneself to a course, cull, decide, deligere, desire, determine, determine upon, discriminate, discriminate between, do of one's own accord, draw, elect, eliminate the alternatives, embrace, excerpt, exercise one's choice, exercise one's discretion, exercise one's option, exercise one's preference, exercise the will, have volition, make a decision, make one's choice, make one's selection, mark out for, opt for, pick, pick out, prefer, put to the vote, resolve, select, set apart, settle, side, support, take a decisive step, take one's choice, take up an option, use one's discretion, use one's option, will

I am sorry but I see no contradiction. Can you point out where you see it exactly ?

 

[Koldo]

We have as far as I am concerned. You may disagree, but I can't go any further until you get past the why.



I have multiple times.



That's your confusion.

I cleared that up in post #145.



No, we are stuck because you can't get past why, because you won't accept the answer as to why.



We've been at that point for awhile unfortunately.

If you tell me you are acting out of a certain principle you are not telling me why you are acting out of that principle. If you can't answer this we can't go any further.

 

[Koldo]

I think I understand how Enoch07 feels because a part of us still thinks we want these things we used to want even though we do not really want them anymore.

Actually, he said he still wants those things. It is just that we are contradictory beings in the sense that we can hold contradictory desires within ourselves.

 

[David T]

That is what it is, I could not have said it better..... I love it, I just love it.
This just reminded me of why I like RF so much...

Thank you trail. I actually wrote a 30 page paper in college on an old royal typewriter on exactly this topic . A philosophical question old as the day is long, I wrote it from inside Christianity between Calvinists and methodists. Zero atheists involved. Both "believed" their view was correct, and I wrote both can be seen as correct. I wasn't sure why that was true at the time due to my limited understanding. I was just a kid in a crazy world.

Here We have the identical debate going on today except redressed in new clothes called secular. Does secular clothing make it magically valid? It's still the identical pig..

I dare say most secularists don't even know that this is a famous old internal christian debate. I might say the religious didn't understand the topic god then , secularists do not understand the topic nature today co equally. The existence of this debate is emperical proof of that. It's the idiotic how many angels can dance on the head of a pin debate. Not even wrong it's so wrong to quote Wolfgang Pauli.

 

[syo]

Do you then see his point when he say that the reason you want to eat an apple rather than a turd is because there is something that makes you want to eat the apple more?

that sth is our opinion. we form freely our opinion.