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Does Free Will Exist?

ecco

Veteran Member
There is no "inner circle." There are just Baha'is.
Perhaps I should have taken the time to look up the name you have for the group (all male) that make decisions today.

The Universal House of Justice




In looking that up, I came across this:
In this connection, the concept of the “training institute” was introduced by the Universal House of Justice in the mid-1990s. Its purpose is to assist individuals to deepen their understanding of the Bahá’í teachings, and to gain the spiritual insights and practical skills they need to carry out the work of the community.

The nature of the training institute can be understood by imagining an ongoing conversation taking place among friends in thousands upon thousands of social spaces—neighbourhoods, villages, schools, universities, and workplaces—concerned with contributing to the advancement of civilization through the application of Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings. As the number of participants in the conversation grows, processes to achieve collective spiritual and material goals in each space are set in motion.
This sounds a lot like Scientology and LDS.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
If Messenger Moses did not write the OT, what did he do?
He held converse with God and brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts...

How did Moses bring tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts? Did he just talk to them or did he write down some of his conversations with God? If he just talked to them, how do we know that? If he wrote things down, where are they?



How did the writer of the following come to know this?
After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book.”​
 

ecco

Veteran Member
ecco said:
I'm a firm believer in the truth of history. All religions break into factions. Bahai will be no exception. The split between Catholics and Protestants caused many deaths. The split between Suni and Shia caused many deaths. Actually, The Bab splitting from Shia Islam already caused many deaths.


History does not "always" repeat itself.
This is an entirely new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because it is the fulfillment of all the prophetic promises made by the Messengers in the past religions, the likes of which humanity has never seen in the past.

No, it is not anything entirely new. It is the same old stuff repackaged.

What do Muslims think of Jesus?
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet who was given a special message—injil, or the gospel—to convey to all people. This message both confirmed what was taught in the Torah and foretold the coming of Prophet Muhammad. Thus, Jesus has a vital and unique role to play in the Muslim faith.​

The Baba and Bahá’u’lláh just took it another step further.


This is the Day of God and it is a day that will not be followed by night. The reason is because of Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant. That is explained in the video below.
I don't watch propaganda videos.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That is just life. You can't chose where you was born, what kind of neighborhood your grew up in, etc. But you can chose to not let those things factor into your decision making. You are setting up people for failure with that logic.

It's like saying "Well I was born in the hood. Guess I have no choice but to be a hoodlum".

Which absolutely is not the case. Many people climbed out of the bad situations they was born into. That should be proof enough.



Like I said before Free Will is about choosing from the options available to you. Not choosing impossible options. It's not possible to go back in time and do all that stuff. It's not possible to chose to be able to shoot laser beams out of your eyes. It's not possible for you to control where you was born or your ethnicity. That is why the argument is weak.

My point is that just because you had options, you cannot demonstrate that you chose a given option unimpeded by things you were not conscious of at the moment the decision was made.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
My point is that just because you had options, you cannot demonstrate that you chose a given option unimpeded by things you were not conscious of at the moment the decision was made.

That is ridiculous to assert.

If what you say is true then it's also true you can't demonstrate that your choice was impeded by things you were not conscious of the moment the decision was made.

Because if you are not conscious of them. How can you say if they effect you or not for sure? You can't.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That is ridiculous to assert.

If what you say is true then it's also true you can't demonstrate that your choice was impeded by things you were not conscious of the moment the decision was made.

Because if you are not conscious of them. How can you say if they effect you or not for sure? You can't.

Because you cannot remember every single thing in the entirety of your life that helped form your particular personality and worldview. And because you are not conscious of everything going on in your brain when you are making a decision. Both genetics and the sum total of everything that has ever happened to you as an influence on how you think.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Because you cannot remember every single thing in the entirety of your life that helped form your particular personality and worldview.

That falls under the impossible inward talking about earlier.

And because you are not conscious of everything going on in your brain when you are making a decision.

Also the impossible I was talking about earlier.

Both genetics and the sum total of everything that has ever happened to you as an influence on how you think.

That can't be proven.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In looking that up, I came across this:
In this connection, the concept of the “training institute” was introduced by the Universal House of Justice in the mid-1990s. Its purpose is to assist individuals to deepen their understanding of the Bahá’í teachings, and to gain the spiritual insights and practical skills they need to carry out the work of the community.

The nature of the training institute can be understood by imagining an ongoing conversation taking place among friends in thousands upon thousands of social spaces—neighbourhoods, villages, schools, universities, and workplaces—concerned with contributing to the advancement of civilization through the application of Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings. As the number of participants in the conversation grows, processes to achieve collective spiritual and material goals in each space are set in motion.
This sounds a lot like Scientology and LDS.
It might “sound” like them but that does not mean it “is” like them. There might be some similarities but there are also differences..

Are concerned Scientology and LDS concerned with contributing to the advancement of civilization?

Quite honestly, I do not know anything about these Baha'i training institutes because I was not involved with Baha'is back in the mid-1990s, and I still am not involved in group activities.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How did Moses bring tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts? Did he just talk to them or did he write down some of his conversations with God? If he just talked to them, how do we know that? If he wrote things down, where are they?
We cannot know any of this for certain. All I know for sure about Moses is what Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha wrote about Him. Anything else is just religious traditions.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words.
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
How did the writer of the following come to know this?

After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! itforeshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book.”
Baha’u’llah was all the Prophets, just as Muhammad and all the other Prophets were all the Prophets, so the Prophets that came after have the memory of all that happened before. They each have a different human body but they share the same Spirit.

“These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but One.” Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muḥammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muḥammad is our first, Muḥammadis our last, Muḥammad our all.”

It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established….

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.

It hath ever been evident that all these divergencies of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been, and are applicable to those Essences of Being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of Divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of Divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the Divine Being.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 50-53
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, it is not anything entirely new. It is the same old stuff repackaged.

What do Muslims think of Jesus?
Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet who was given a special message—injil, or the gospel—to convey to all people. This message both confirmed what was taught in the Torah and foretold the coming of Prophet Muhammad. Thus, Jesus has a vital and unique role to play in the Muslim faith.
The Baba and Bahá’u’lláh just took it another step further.
Yes, Baha’u’llah took it one step further in glorifying Jesus and explaining the profound effect Jesus had upon humanity. Jesus was more than just a Messenger or a Prophet, as Muslims believe. Jesus was a Universal Manifestation of God. If you want to understand exactly what that is I can post something I found in the Kitáb-i-Íqán today while I was poking around lookin for an answer to your previous post.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86


What is a "fresh capacity"? How does it get infused? What's this "splendor and glory" thing?

All it means is that the world was transformed, made anew. Some examples of the effects Jesus had was to stimulate wisdom of sages and profound learning as well as the production of art, and He also influenced the rulers of his day. Splendor and glory is just what it says it is. Jesus had splendor and glory and it affected all of humanity just by His walking upon the earth. Let’s just say Jesus walking upon the earth was the same as God walking upon the earth, because Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God. Because God has splendor and glory, Jesus has splendor and glory.
I don't watch propaganda videos.
How do you know that is what it is without even looking at it?

All he did was to briefly explain why history will not repeat itself – so this day will not be followed by night as we have seen in the past religious dispensations -- because of Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
It might “sound” like them but that does not mean it “is” like them. There might be some similarities but there are also differences..

Are concerned Scientology and LDS concerned with contributing to the advancement of civilization?

Quite honestly, I do not know anything about these Baha'i training institutes because I was not involved with Baha'is back in the mid-1990s, and I still am not involved in group activities.

Quick question, Did you
-choose to post
-were you forced to post,
-was you post preplanned by unknown forces?

I'm guessing you chose to post which means you freely chose to post, which means your choice to post was soley your choice, which means you posted because of your free will to choose and do so. But that's my opinion.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Quick question, Did you
-choose to post
-were you forced to post,
-was you post preplanned by unknown forces?

I'm guessing you chose to post which means you freely chose to post, which means your choice to post was soley your choice, which means you posted because of your free will to choose and do so. But that's my opinion.
You are right, my choice to post was solely my choice, and and because I have free will I chose to do so. :)
 

ecco

Veteran Member
It might “sound” like them but that does not mean it “is” like them. There might be some similarities but there are also differences.

Are concerned Scientology and LDS concerned with contributing to the advancement of civilization?
They would answer in the affirmative just like you would. Muslim terrorists would also answer in the affirmative. What's your point?

Quite honestly, I do not know anything about these Baha'i training institutes because I was not involved with Baha'is back in the mid-1990s, and I still am not involved in group activities.

If you "do not know" how could you come to the conclusions you did in your first paragraph?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Trailblazer: He (Moses) held converse with God and brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts...


ecco:
How did Moses bring tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts? Did he just talk to them or did he write down some of his conversations with God? If he just talked to them, how do we know that? If he wrote things down, where are they?

We cannot know any of this for certain. All I know for sure about Moses is what Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha wrote about Him. Anything else is just religious traditions.

That doesn't address the question.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They would answer in the affirmative just like you would. Muslim terrorists would also answer in the affirmative.
Why do you think that they would?
Even if they did answer in the affirmative, their ideas of contributing to the advancement of civilization would not be the same as Baha'i.
What's your point?
See above.
If you "do not know" how could you come to the conclusions you did in your first paragraph?
I did not come to any conclusions..
I said "might" twice.
I said might because I do not know.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That doesn't address the question.
The answer is that we cannot know any of this for certain.
To add to that, it really does not matter now because the Revelation of Moses has been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah...
 

ecco

Veteran Member
When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
So, does each Bahai get to pick and choose what is Truth in Scripture?
 
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