Does Free Will Exist?

[ecco]

Not if you can comprehend the further elaborations.

Made up definitions followed by more made up definitions do not enhance the clarity of your writing.

I do not ignore anything in my own religion and I believe all of it. I have to figure out which parts are allegorical but that is not too difficult since Baha’u’llah did not talk in riddles like Jesus.

Baha’u’llah's writings are rambling nonsense. I submit...

Methinks that thou hast halted and movest not upon My Tablet. Could the brightness of the Divine Countenance have bewildered thee, or the idle talk of the froward filled thee with grief and paralyzed thy movement? Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day ñ the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?​

And so? That does not MEAN that my religion is the SAME as all the other religions just because I relate to it the same way.

Consider what I actually wrote, not what you imagine I wrote...

That makes you absolutely the same as anyone else from any other religion. You choose to believe based on what you choose to consider knowledge.​

 

[Trailblazer]

Made up definitions followed by more made up definitions do not enhance the clarity of your writing.

But real definitions do.

Baha’u’llah's writings are rambling nonsense. I submit...

What you consider rambling other people consider eloquent.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

You choose to believe based on what you choose to consider knowledge.

I choose to believe the knowledge that came by way of Baha'u'llah.
The knowledge of all that has been.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon Mycouch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

 

[ecco]

ecco
Baha’u’llah's writings are rambling nonsense.

What you consider rambling other people consider eloquent.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

The wink is noted. It seems you cannot make that comment with a straight face.

If it is so eloquent, you should be able to tell us what it means.

Methinks that thou hast halted and movest not upon My Tablet. Could the brightness of the Divine Countenance have bewildered thee, or the idle talk of the froward filled thee with grief and paralyzed thy movement? Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day ñ the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?​

 

[wandering peacefully]

ecco
Baha’u’llah's writings are rambling nonsense.




The wink is noted. It seems you cannot make that comment with a straight face.

If it is so eloquent, you should be able to tell us what it means.

Methinks that thou hast halted and movest not upon My Tablet. Could the brightness of the Divine Countenance have bewildered thee, or the idle talk of the froward filled thee with grief and paralyzed thy movement? Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day ñ the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?​

ecco
Baha’u’llah's writings are rambling nonsense.




The wink is noted. It seems you cannot make that comment with a straight face.

If it is so eloquent, you should be able to tell us what it means.

Methinks that thou hast halted and movest not upon My Tablet. Could the brightness of the Divine Countenance have bewildered thee, or the idle talk of the froward filled thee with grief and paralyzed thy movement? Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day ñ the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?​

"I think you have become lazy and refuse to follow my instructions.

Has my greatness overwhelmed you or negative false talk of non-believers caused you not to follow me?

Don't let anything stop you from extolling and recognizing my greatness and Godliness. Don't you see the divinity of my message which has been opened to you?

Why are you wasting time not following me when this great day for my message has been revealed to all on earth. Or are you blind from a veil so you can't see me?"

How's that!?

He sure does love himself in his most manic rambling states.

 

[Trailblazer]

The wink is noted. It seems you cannot make that comment with a straight face.

No, you misinterpreted what I meant by the wink.

If it is so eloquent, you should be able to tell us what it means.

Methinks that thou hast halted and movest not upon My Tablet. Could the brightness of the Divine Countenance have bewildered thee, or the idle talk of the froward filled thee with grief and paralyzed thy movement? Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day ñ the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?

Well, you did not cite the reference but no problem, I went to the Baha’i Reference Library website and did a search, and I found the entire passage in Gleanings within a few seconds. Sine you left the leading paragraph out, and it does not make sense without that context, I have included that. Mind you, I can only give you MY interpretation, what I think it means, but this is by no means authoritative.

“The Divine Springtime is come, O Most Exalted Pen, for the Festival of the All-Merciful is fast approaching. Bestir thyself, and magnify, before the entire creation, the name of God, and celebrate His praise, in such wise that all created things may be regenerated and made new. Speak, and hold not thy peace. The day star of blissfulness shineth above the horizon of Our name, the Blissful, inasmuch as the kingdom of the name of God hath been adorned with the ornament of the name of thy Lord, the Creator of the heavens. Arise before the nations of the earth, and arm thyself with the power of this Most Great Name, and be not of those who tarry.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 27-28​

I think that Baha’u’llah was thinking to Himself as He wrote this because He refers to His Pen. I think the “Festival of the All-Merciful” refers to the Kingdom of God on earth, the New World Order Baha’u’llah came to establish.

Baha’u’llah then switches from thinking to Himself to talking to those He is addressing. I think He is addressing all of humanity, although one might interpret it mean he is only addressing the Baha’is. He is telling us to bestir ourselves (make a physical or mental effort; exert or rouse ourselves)and magnify (extol, glorify) the name of God to the entire creation and praise God, because this is how all created things will be regenerated and made new. He tells us not to keep silent because the kingdom of God has come. He says we should arise before all the nations of the earth armed with the power of His Name (the name of Baha’u’llah), and not to wait, but rather, get right to it.

Now, back to the paragraph you cited....

“Methinks that thou hast halted and movest not upon My Tablet. Could the brightness of the Divine Countenance have bewildered thee, or the idle talk of the froward filled thee with grief and paralyzed thy movement? Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day—the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 28​

The interpretation of this paragraph is a little more difficult. I think Baha’u’llah has now switched back to thinking to Himself, wondering why He is having trouble continuing to write. He is wondering if the brightness of the Light of God has caused Him to become bewildered or if the idle talk of the froward (people who are contrary to His Cause) have caused Him to be unable to continue writing the Tablet.

Baha’u’llah then switches from thinking to Himself to talking to those He is addressing and reiterates what He wrote in the first paragraph. Baha’u’llahis telling people to not allow anything to prevent them from extolling the greatness of this Day, the Day of God. Then He asks why anyone would prefer to wait and waste their time, when the Day of God has arrived. Lastly, He asks whether we are veiled (prevented from seeing) that this is the Day of God.

What is the Day of God? Baha’u’llah explains what it is in the following passage.

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60​

The Day of God is the Day that God has ordained to send a new Manifestation of God (Messenger, Prophet). Day means age in history. In the passage above, Baha’u’llah explains that every Day in which God sends a new Messenger is God’s appointed day, but this Day is unique because in 1844, the Bab ushered in an entirely new cycle of religion. The Bab (meaning gate in Persian) was the first of the Twin Manifestations whose primary mission was to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah. Then in 1863, Baha’u’llah proclaimed His mission. Baha’u’llah says that the Prophetic Cycle has ended because Muhammad was the last Prophet in that cycle (why Muhammad is referred to as the Seal of the Prophets), so Muhammad closed off the Prophetic Cycle of religion which began with Adam.

This new religious Cycle ushered in by the Bab is called the Baha’i Cycle (or the Cycle of Fulfillment) because all the prophecies in the Bible and all the prophecies of all the religions of the past will be fulfilled during this Cycle.

“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13​

In the passage above, Baha’u’llah refers to the Old Testament and says that nobody who understands the meaning of this verse from Isaiah can fail to recognize the greatness of the Baha’u’llah’s Cause, which He refers to in many of His writings as “the Cause of God.” This is the Day of God because Baha’u’llah has exalted God in His writings. It is also the Day which was glorified in all the scriptures of the past religions, since Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of all their prophecies.

 

[ecco]

"I think you have become lazy and refuse to follow my instructions.

Has my greatness overwhelmed you or negative false talk of non-believers caused you not to follow me?

Don't let anything stop you from extolling and recognizing my greatness and Godliness. Don't you see the divinity of my message which has been opened to you?

Why are you wasting time not following me when this great day for my message has been revealed to all on earth. Or are you blind from a veil so you can't see me?"

How's that!?

Pretty darn good!

He sure does love himself in his most manic rambling states.

He does indeed!

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑​

The wink is noted. It seems you cannot make that comment with a straight face.

No, you misinterpreted what I meant by the wink

No. I do not misinterpret smilies and winkies. They are no different than when talking to someone in person. They are a sign of sub-conscious embarrassment when being deceitful.

 

[ecco]

No, you misinterpreted what I meant by the wink.

Well, you did not cite the reference but no problem, I went to the Baha’i Reference Library website and did a search, and I found the entire passage in Gleanings within a few seconds. Sine you left the leading paragraph out, and it does not make sense without that context, I have included that. Mind you, I can only give you MY interpretation, what I think it means, but this is by no means authoritative.

“The Divine Springtime is come, O Most Exalted Pen, for the Festival of the All-Merciful is fast approaching. Bestir thyself, and magnify, before the entire creation, the name of God, and celebrate His praise, in such wise that all created things may be regenerated and made new. Speak, and hold not thy peace. The day star of blissfulness shineth above the horizon of Our name, the Blissful, inasmuch as the kingdom of the name of God hath been adorned with the ornament of the name of thy Lord, the Creator of the heavens. Arise before the nations of the earth, and arm thyself with the power of this Most Great Name, and be not of those who tarry.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 27-28​

I think that Baha’u’llah was thinking to Himself as He wrote this because He refers to His Pen. I think the “Festival of the All-Merciful” refers to the Kingdom of God on earth, the New World Order Baha’u’llah came to establish.

Baha’u’llah then switches from thinking to Himself to talking to those He is addressing. I think He is addressing all of humanity, although one might interpret it mean he is only addressing the Baha’is. He is telling us to bestir ourselves (make a physical or mental effort; exert or rouse ourselves)and magnify (extol, glorify) the name of God to the entire creation and praise God, because this is how all created things will be regenerated and made new. He tells us not to keep silent because the kingdom of God has come. He says we should arise before all the nations of the earth armed with the power of His Name (the name of Baha’u’llah), and not to wait, but rather, get right to it.

Now, back to the paragraph you cited....

“Methinks that thou hast halted and movest not upon My Tablet. Could the brightness of the Divine Countenance have bewildered thee, or the idle talk of the froward filled thee with grief and paralyzed thy movement? Take heed lest anything deter thee from extolling the greatness of this Day—the Day whereon the Finger of majesty and power hath opened the seal of the Wine of Reunion, and called all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Preferrest thou to tarry when the breeze announcing the Day of God hath already breathed over thee, or art thou of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 28​

The interpretation of this paragraph is a little more difficult. I think Baha’u’llah has now switched back to thinking to Himself, wondering why He is having trouble continuing to write. He is wondering if the brightness of the Light of God has caused Him to become bewildered or if the idle talk of the froward (people who are contrary to His Cause) have caused Him to be unable to continue writing the Tablet.

Baha’u’llah then switches from thinking to Himself to talking to those He is addressing and reiterates what He wrote in the first paragraph. Baha’u’llahis telling people to not allow anything to prevent them from extolling the greatness of this Day, the Day of God. Then He asks why anyone would prefer to wait and waste their time, when the Day of God has arrived. Lastly, He asks whether we are veiled (prevented from seeing) that this is the Day of God.

What is the Day of God? Baha’u’llah explains what it is in the following passage.

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60​

The Day of God is the Day that God has ordained to send a new Manifestation of God (Messenger, Prophet). Day means age in history. In the passage above, Baha’u’llah explains that every Day in which God sends a new Messenger is God’s appointed day, but this Day is unique because in 1844, the Bab ushered in an entirely new cycle of religion. The Bab (meaning gate in Persian) was the first of the Twin Manifestations whose primary mission was to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah. Then in 1863, Baha’u’llah proclaimed His mission. Baha’u’llah says that the Prophetic Cycle has ended because Muhammad was the last Prophet in that cycle (why Muhammad is referred to as the Seal of the Prophets), so Muhammad closed off the Prophetic Cycle of religion which began with Adam.

This new religious Cycle ushered in by the Bab is called the Baha’i Cycle (or the Cycle of Fulfillment) because all the prophecies in the Bible and all the prophecies of all the religions of the past will be fulfilled during this Cycle.

“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13​

In the passage above, Baha’u’llah refers to the Old Testament and says that nobody who understands the meaning of this verse from Isaiah can fail to recognize the greatness of the Baha’u’llah’s Cause, which He refers to in many of His writings as “the Cause of God.” This is the Day of God because Baha’u’llah has exalted God in His writings. It is also the Day which was glorified in all the scriptures of the past religions, since Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of all their prophecies.

Well, I do appreciate the effort you put into this.



But it sure does sound like Wandering Peacefully got it right when he (she?) said he thinks very highly of himself.


It also bears out what I said about "rambling".

He's thinking to himself - He's talking to others (everyone? Bahais?) - The kingdom of God has come but it really hasn't - Back to thinking to himself - having trouble concentrating - why? a light? other people? - Back to talking to the masses - considers himself to be the fulfillment of all OT prophecies - also recognizes that he is only half of the Manifestation along with The Bab.
​

Did I also use the word "incoherent"? Fifty people would have 50 different interpretations of just those passages. As you, yourself said: "Mind you, I can only give you MY interpretation, what I think it means, but this is by no means authoritative." Maybe that's an attraction to some people.

 

[Trailblazer]

ecco said: ↑​

The wink is noted. It seems you cannot make that comment with a straight face.

No. I do not misinterpret smilies and winkies. They are no different than when talking to someone in person. They are a sign of sub-conscious embarrassment when being deceitful.

As I just told another atheist on this forum, YOU do not know what is in anyone else's mind.
Only that person knows what they are thinking.

Does it matter to you what I was really thinking when I posted the wink?
It was just a friendly wink, it had no deeper implications.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. That was simply a statement of fact. There is nothing deceitful about it.
Let's say some people think that fat people are beautiful and you think they are ugly. Are they ugly just because YOU think they are ugly?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, I do appreciate the effort you put into this.

Thanks, it did take some time and effort, but it was worth it. I always learn something new when I am asked to think about these things and explain them.

But it sure does sound like Wandering Peacefully got it right when he (she?) said he thinks very highly of himself.

There was nothing in these passages that would even indicate that Baha’u’llah was thinking highly of Himself…. I wonder why anyone would think that. It could very well be projection.

Baha’u’llah was talking about the Greatness of this Day of God, not about His own greatness.

It also bears out what I said about "rambling".

That depends upon what you consider rambling. That is a subjective call. When I first became a Baha’i, I did not like the Writings of Baha’u’llah very much because they were too difficult to understand, but now that I know more about Manifestations of God, so it does not seem like rambling now.

He's thinking to himself - He's talking to others (everyone? Bahais?) - The kingdom of God has come but it really hasn't - Back to thinking to himself - having trouble concentrating - why? a light? other people? - Back to talking to the masses - considers himself to be the fulfillment of all OT prophecies - also recognizes that he is only half of the Manifestation along with The Bab.

This is how Manifestations of God think and write, because they are not like ordinary humans beings – when they are getting a revelation from God, because they are being affected directly by the Holy Spirit. At other times, they are just like you and me.

As ordinary human beings, we read a passage like that and we project what we think – the reasons someone would write like that – onto Baha’u’llah, but we cannot understand why He writes like that because we are not a Manifestation of God.
I hope that makes some sense.

No, Baha’u’llah was not only half of the Manifestation. The Bab was the one who came to usher in the new age, and He had His own religion for about nine years; it was called the Babi religion, but the Bab’s primary mission was to help make the transition between Islam and the Baha’i Faith and to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah. He said that He was as nothing compared to Baha’u’llah. In the following passage, the Bab is telling His followers to turn towards Baha’u’llah when He appears, referring to Baha’u’llah as Him Whom God shall make manifest.

The Day in which a new Manifestation of God comes to earth is considered the Day of Resurrection, so the Bab was the first Resurrection and Baha’u’llah was the Latter Resurrection.

“This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7​

What was the nineteen years all about? Well, the Bab declared His Revelation in 1844, so He said He would give His followers (the Babis) nineteen years and then they were admonished to recognize Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah declared His mission in 1863 in the garden of Ridvan, and when the Bab wrote that He knew that would happen because of course the Bab could see into the future.

The Garden of Ridván (literally garden of paradise) or Najibiyyih Garden[1] was a wooded garden in what is now Baghdad's Rusafa District, on the banks of the Tigris river. It is notable as the location where Bahá'u'lláh, founder of the Bahá'í Faith, stayed for twelve days from April 21 to May 2, 1863, after the Ottoman Empire exiled him from Baghdad and before commencing his journey to Constantinople. During his stay in this garden, Bahá'u'lláh announced to his followers that he was the messianic figure of He whom God shall make manifest, whose coming had been foretold by the Báb. These events are celebrated annually during the Festival of Ridván.[1]

Garden of Ridván, Baghdad​

 

[ecco]

As I just told another atheist on this forum, YOU do not know what is in anyone else's mind.
Only that person knows what they are thinking.

Does it matter to you what I was really thinking when I posted the wink?
It was just a friendly wink, it had no deeper implications.

Uh huh.

How to Avoid Smiling at Inappropriate Times
There are many reasons that people smile or laugh. Usually, people smile because they feel happy or comfortable. However, sometimes they smile when it's actually inappropriate. This is usually caused by nervousness and not knowing how to respond in a given moment.​

 

[ecco]

This is how Manifestations of God think and write, because they are not like ordinary humans beings – when they are getting a revelation from God, because they are being affected directly by the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying we should blame God for his Manifestations (Messengers) writing confusing, incoherent stuff? I suppose that would be correct since it is God who picks the Messengers. One would think that if God wanted His messages understood, He would select people who could write clearly regardless of how they were being affected by the presence of God.

Perhaps God should have selected someone like Charles Lutwidge Dodgson or Samuel Langhorne Clemens to be His Messenger. Both had great skill in clearly communicating even very complex concepts.

As ordinary human beings, we read a passage like that and we project what we think – the reasons someone would write like that – onto Baha’u’llah, but we cannot understand why He writes like that because we are not a Manifestation of God.
I hope that makes some sense.

No. I would make more sense for God to select Messengers who could communicate clearly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Uh huh.

How to Avoid Smiling at Inappropriate Times
There are many reasons that people smile or laugh. Usually, people smile because they feel happy or comfortable. However, sometimes they smile when it's actually inappropriate. This is usually caused by nervousness and not knowing how to respond in a given moment.​

Whereas that is generally true about smiling in face to face social situations, on forums we do not have to pretend to be who we are not. Maybe some people do that, but I do not. What you see is what you get... Just ask my atheist friends on my forum.

That wink was just a friendly wink... I am very spontaneous and genuine. I like you so I winked at you.

I do not have to pretend in real life either, although sometimes I have to smile a little bit at work because it makes people uncomfortable when I am not happy all the time...
But if they had the stress I have in my life, I can guarantee they would not be happy either...

Funny thing, people do not seem to think that just because they are happy, not everyone is happy. I consider that rather self-centered but that is just they way most people are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you saying we should blame God for his Manifestations (Messengers) writing confusing, incoherent stuff? I suppose that would be correct since it is God who picks the Messengers. One would think that if God wanted His messages understood, He would select people who could write clearly regardless of how they were being affected by the presence of God.

Please keep in mind that not all of Baha’u’llah’s Writings are written the same way as what I post to you from Gleanings, some of His Writings are in a completely different literary style that is very clear and easy to understand… It is still King James English, but I think you can understand it… For example:

“The third Taráz concerneth good character. A good character is, verily, the best mantle for men from God. With it He adorneth the temples of His loved ones. By My life! The light of a good character surpasseth the light of the sun and the radiance thereof. Whoso attaineth unto it is accounted as a jewel among men. The glory and the upliftment of the world must needs depend upon it. A goodly character is a means whereby men are guided to the Straight Path and are led to the Great Announcement. Well is it with him who is adorned with the saintly attributes and character of the Concourse on High.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas , p. 36​

Gleanings is called Gleanings because it is an extraction of information, briefer excerpts from various longer Tablets...

Now, let me explain why Gleanings is written the way it is. That is explained in the Introduction to the book, which unfortunately is not in the online version, only in the printed book.

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.”Gleanings​

So the reason the language is rather ornate is because that style has spiritual power to inspire and move souls into action.

Perhaps God should have selected someone like Charles Lutwidge Dodgson or Samuel Langhorne Clemens to be His Messenger. Both had great skill in clearly communicating even very complex concepts.

These same concepts that I quote to you from Gleanings are explained by Abdu’l-Baha and/or Shoghi Effendi in their writings, so there is no danger that people will not be able to get this information from the Baha’i Writings. If the language of Baha’u’llah is too ornate, people can read other books. Not only the ones you see posted online in the Baha’i Reference Library, but many other books have been written by Baha’i authors explaining these concepts. Not only that, but there are many websites that explain these concepts in great detail.

No. I would make more sense for God to select Messengers who could communicate clearly.

God had a backup system for that. They are called the appointed interpreters, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. This is a HUGE improvement over what other religions have. All that Jews, Christians and Muslims have are clergy who try to interpret their scriptures, but there are no two clergymen who agree on what they actually mean. What a mess. I do not even bother to try to understand most of the Bible, but because Abdu’l-Baha and Baha’u’llah have explained some of it, I understand those chapters and verses.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176​

Now, was that difficult to understand?
Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men.
The appointed interpreters are Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

 

[Milton Platt]

It's an extremely weak argument.

What he is saying is you don't have the a ability to make other choices, because you made the choice you made.....

Well yes, and had I chosen the other option the exact same thing could also be said.

If there was no free will I couldn't make any other decision than the first option.

So it defeats itself because in stating the above statements you have just shown you can chose between the 2 and therefore have free will.

It's not as lame as other atheist arguments that we don't have free will because we cannot chose to shoot laser beams out of our eyes. So I'll give it a D grade for at least trying to be serious.

No, he is saying that our choices are acted upon by not only genetics, but influence from others in our life, society, our beliefs, what happened to us the moment before, etc. at the moment of our choice, we cannot possible by conscious of all the factors that make us who we are as an individual, and which feed into our choices. In essence, if you could roll back time to the beginning of your life and experience all the inputs you have ever experienced and experienced them all in the same time frame and same order, you would inevitably arrive at the same choice.

 

[Enoch07]

No, he is saying that our choices are acted upon by not only genetics, but influence from others in our life, society, our beliefs, what happened to us the moment before, etc. at the moment of our choice, we cannot possible by conscious of all the factors that make us who we are as an individual, and which feed into our choices.

That is just life. You can't chose where you was born, what kind of neighborhood your grew up in, etc. But you can chose to not let those things factor into your decision making. You are setting up people for failure with that logic.

It's like saying "Well I was born in the hood. Guess I have no choice but to be a hoodlum".

Which absolutely is not the case. Many people climbed out of the bad situations they was born into. That should be proof enough.

In essence, if you could roll back time to the beginning of your life and experience all the inputs you have ever experienced and experienced them all in the same time frame and same order, you would inevitably arrive at the same choice.

Like I said before Free Will is about choosing from the options available to you. Not choosing impossible options. It's not possible to go back in time and do all that stuff. It's not possible to chose to be able to shoot laser beams out of your eyes. It's not possible for you to control where you was born or your ethnicity. That is why the argument is weak.

 

[ecco]

Please keep in mind that not all of Baha’u’llah’s Writings are written the same way as what I post to you from Gleanings, some of His Writings are in a completely different literary style that is very clear and easy to understand… It is still King James English, but I think you can understand it… For example:

Very often when things are written in one style and then in a completely different literary style, it is because it was written by different people.

​

Gleanings is called Gleanings because it is an extraction of information, briefer excerpts from various longer Tablets...

I figured out long ago what Bahais meant by Gleanings. "Excerpts" would have been a better word choice. But I guess "gleanings" sounds more spiritual.

Now, let me explain why Gleanings is written the way it is. That is explained in the Introduction to the book, which unfortunately is not in the online version, only in the printed book.

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.”Gleanings​

​

Yeah. The CliffsNotes version.

God had a backup system for that. They are called the appointed interpreters, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. This is a HUGE improvement over what other religions have. All that Jews, Christians and Muslims have are clergy who try to interpret their scriptures, but there are no two clergymen who agree on what they actually mean.

BBC - Religions - Bahai: Origins of Bahá'í historyAfter Shoghi Effendi's death in 1957, the leadership of the faith passed to a group of believers rather than an individual and now rests with the Universal House of Justice.​

What a mess. I do not even bother to try to understand most of the Bible,

The OT was written by one of Gods Messengers. You say Moses' writings are a mess. I say Baha’u’llah’s writings are a mess.

Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men.
The appointed interpreters are Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

But now the all male members of the Universal House of Justice are the representatives. The same thing that happened to Judaism, Christianity, Islam is beginning to happen to Bahai. Many representatives who will soon come to disagreements and result in factions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Very often when things are written in one style and then in a completely different literary style, it is because it was written by different people.

It is not completely different, so maybe I should not have said that....
There is proof that Baha'ullah wrote what is attributed to Him, as we have the original Tablets which have been authenticated.

I figured out long ago what Bahais meant by Gleanings. "Excerpts" would have been a better word choice. But I guess "gleanings" sounds more spiritual.

You are correct, they are excerpts, but they are also gleanings.

The OT was written by one of Gods Messengers. You say Moses' writings are a mess. I say Baha’u’llah’s writings are a mess.

No, I did not say that Moses' writings are a mess. I said:
"What a mess. I do not even bother to try to understand most of the Bible, but because Abdu’l-Baha and Baha’u’llah have explained some of it, I understand those chapters and verses."

The OT was not written by Moses. Any scholar knows that.
Moses does not have any "writings."

Who Wrote The Bible? This Is What The Actual Historical Evidence Says

How many books did Moses write?

But now the all male members of the Universal House of Justice are the representatives. The same thing that happened to Judaism, Christianity, Islam is beginning to happen to Bahai. Many representatives who will soon come to disagreements and result in factions.

Do you have any evidence that the same thing is happening to the UHJ as happened to Judaism, Christianity, Islam?

 

[ecco]

It is not completely different, so maybe I should not have said that....
There is proof that Baha'ullah wrote what is attributed to Him, as we have the original Tablets which have been authenticated.

By whom? Members of the Bahai inner circle?

The OT was not written by Moses. Any scholar knows that.
Moses does not have any "writings."

I'm an atheist, I know "Moses" did not write anything. But you have him listed as a Messenger. You want to unite Christians into Bahai, but you denigrate Moses.

If Messenger Moses did not write the OT, what did he do?

Do you have any evidence that the same thing is happening to the UHJ as happened to Judaism, Christianity, Islam?

I'm a firm believer in the truth of history. All religions break into factions. Bahai will be no exception. The split between Catholics and Protestants caused many deaths. The split between Suni and Shia caused many deaths. Actually, The Bab splitting from Shia Islam already caused many deaths.

 

[Trailblazer]

By whom? Members of the Bahai inner circle?

There is no "inner circle." There are just Baha'is. Of course it is the Baha'is who are responsible to handle the Original Tablets of Baha'u'llah. Who else would do that, Christians or Muslims, or maybe atheists?

The Writings of Baha'u'llah have been authenticated by the Archives office at the World Centre in Haifa, Israel and that process is still underway.
Texts, Sacred, Numbers and Classifications of

I'm an atheist, I know "Moses" did not write anything. But you have him listed as a Messenger. You want to unite Christians into Bahai, but you denigrate Moses.

I never denigrated Moses, quite the contrary. Baha'ullah wrote about Moses and His exalted position in
The Kitáb-i-Íqán.

If Messenger Moses did not write the OT, what did he do?

He held converse with God and brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts...

“Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.

After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63​

I'm a firm believer in the truth of history. All religions break into factions. Bahai will be no exception. The split between Catholics and Protestants caused many deaths. The split between Suni and Shia caused many deaths. Actually, The Bab splitting from Shia Islam already caused many deaths.

History does not "always" repeat itself.
This is an entirely new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because it is the fulfillment of all the prophetic promises made by the Messengers in the past religions, the likes of which humanity has never seen in the past. This is the Day of God and it is a day that will not be followed by night. The reason is because of Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant. That is explained in the video below.

“This is but an evidence of the bounty which God hath vouchsafed unto Thee, a bounty which shall last until the Day that hath no end in this contingent world. It shall endure so long as God, the Supreme King, the Help in Peril, the Mighty, the Wise, shall endure. For the Day of God is none other but His own Self, Who hath appeared with the power of truth. This is the Day that shall not be followed by night, nor shall it be bounded by any praise, would that ye might understand!”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 34-35