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Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.
I've heard the very same argument from JWs when they were posting here on RF. No doubt it's a stock belief of the organization. As for making sense in the light of god's omniscience, it doesn't. Can't have your cake and eat it too. The only time one could say god isn't aware of X is when it isn't immediately at mind, just as I know that 2 + 2 = 4, but I'm not consciously aware of it all the time. As for his observation that "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." he's quite right (there are other reasons you don't have free will as well). You say you believe "God knows everything and does not choose not to know." Obviously you're using "know" in two different senses here. If god knows, but chooses not to, then in what sense does he know?
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.
I believe that God willingly gave up his omniscience when he gave us free-will. If the future is determined, then we don't have free-will. And, if God knows what we will do in the future, then the future MUST be determined. Finally, if the future is determined and we don't actually have free-will, we can't be held responsible for our actions by God, unless God is actually unjust/unreasonable.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.
My belief is a little bit different from both yours and from your JW friend. I believe that God knows us so perfectly that, if He chose to, He could predict with complete accurate what any of us would do in any given situation. What I don't believe is that He micromanages our lives to such an extent that we are nothing more than just puppets, acting in response to His pulling the strings.

If I were to explain what I believe about God's foreknowledge of what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden, I'd say exactly the same thing. He knew how things would play out because He know Adam, Eve and Satan all perfectly. That is not the same thing as saying that He made things happen as they did. To suggest that God didn't know Adam was going to sin when tempted by Satan, or that Satan was going to tempt him isn't giving God a whole lot of credit. It's like saying that Satan outwitted God and that God had to immediately go into frantic damage control to fix the mess. That's ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.
 

Princeps Eugenius

Active Member
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.
I believe( actually know) there is no free will and we are basically robots doing **** god makes us do. all the pain you lived through god made you do it. it was his will or whatever, hes a ****ing ******* honestly. there is nothing not under the knowledge or the power of god. even me insulting him was his will. so you actually cant do anything "wrong", only **** that he makes you do.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I don't think Him choosing not to know something fixes the potential problem. Is the future knowable at all? If so, then you still have the determinism/free will problem.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
If I were to explain what I believe about God's foreknowledge of what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden, I'd say exactly the same thing. He knew how things would play out because He know Adam, Eve and Satan all perfectly. That is not the same thing as saying that He made things happen as they did. To suggest that God didn't know Adam was going to sin when tempted by Satan, or that Satan was going to tempt him isn't giving God a whole lot of credit. It's like saying that Satan outwitted God and that God had to immediately go into frantic damage control to fix the mess. That's ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly! That's what I tried to explain to my JW friend. God knows the "CHOICE" he will make at 6 PM the day after tomorrow, that does not take away his free will, he still made the choice God only knows the choice, He didn't make him choose it.

God had to know what was going to happen in the Garden. How would He have known what to not know? And if He chose to not know what was going to happen, He would have had to scan the future for any evidence of that sin and chose to not know that also. But when he found the evidence to forget it, He would have to know what it is to forget it, thereby knowing what it was.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter if God knows the future (which I believe He does) because he gives us the tools to still pave our own way. This isn't to say He doesn't intervene, and when that happens...the future as you thought it would unfold, will unfold differently.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I believe( actually know) there is no free will and we are basically robots doing **** god makes us do. all the pain you lived through god made you do it. it was his will or whatever, hes a ****ing ******* honestly. there is nothing not under the knowledge or the power of god. even me insulting him was his will. so you actually cant do anything "wrong", only **** that he makes you do.

Interesting. So God made you come to this forum and comment on this thread? God chose every word you wrote? So we are like an XBox and God is sitting up there with a controller just playing His game huh?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Exactly! That's what I tried to explain to my JW friend. God knows the "CHOICE" he will make at 6 PM the day after tomorrow, that does not take away his free will, he still made the choice God only knows the choice, He didn't make him choose it.
But could he have chosen any differently? Nope. He had to choose what god saw him choose. If he actually could have chosen differently then there exists that possibility that god could be wrong in what he saw.

God had to know what was going to happen in the Garden. How would He have known what to not know? And if He chose to not know what was going to happen, He would have had to scan the future for any evidence of that sin and chose to not know that also. But when he found the evidence to forget it, He would have to know what it is to forget it, thereby knowing what it was.
Now this makes good sense. :thumbsup:
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
But could he have chosen any differently? Nope. He had to choose what god saw him choose. If he actually could have chosen differently then there exists that possibility that god could be wrong in what he saw.

Let's just say God knows the final outcome. A person can change their mind 25 times, but God knows the choice he/she will ultimately choose.
 

Princeps Eugenius

Active Member
Interesting. So God made you come to this forum and comment on this thread? God chose every word you wrote? So we are like an XBox and God is sitting up there with a controller just playing His game huh?
much worse i believe. i dont even think this god has a free will of his own but lives some sort of weird destinity of his own, which is totally ridiculous if you think about it.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Now this makes good sense. :thumbsup:

It's the same with everything. If God chooses to not know what you'll eat for dinner tomorrow night, He'll have to look into the future to find any comments or question regarding that dinner and choose not to know them. But in looking to the future He will see what is said and know what you had.
 
Maybe it's like when you take up DIY for a bit and buy some nice tools then get bored with it and move onto some other hobby instead. Later on you decide to take it up again.

Maybe some day in the future god will stumble across Earth again and think 'wow, forgot I made that before', then feel a bit embarrassed because it wasn't one of his best efforts...
 

McBell

Unbound
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.
I never did understand how people can think that knowing how someone will react or do is somehow taking away their ability to choose.
 

Princeps Eugenius

Active Member
Maybe it's like when you take up DIY for a bit and buy some nice tools then get bored with it and move onto some other hobby instead. Later on you decide to take it up again.

Maybe some day in the future god will stumble across Earth again and think 'wow, forgot I made that before', then feel a bit embarrassed because it wasn't one of his best efforts...
all this weird, awful and emberassing **** we live through is actually considered to be perfect by god.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
But could he have chosen any differently? Nope. He had to choose what god saw him choose. If he actually could have chosen differently then there exists that possibility that god could be wrong in what he saw.
I disagree, and I'll tell you why. Here's an analogy. It's not perfect; no analogy is, but I think that if you'll look at it with an open mind, you might see where I'm coming from and my perspective might make a little more sense to you.

I'm a dog lover (despite my kitty cat avatar). Right now, I don't have any dogs, but for most of the lasts 40 years, I have had at least one. One of my dogs was a big Golden Retriever mix by the name of Charlie. Charlie was a real sweetheart, but kind of lacking in the manners department sometimes. If I'd left a big, juicy rib eye steak on the counter ready to be cooked, and had left the room to answer the phone, I can guarantee you that when I got back, there would be no trace of that steak. I know that because I knew Charlie. I could pretty much guarantee that, if given half a chance, he'd wolf that steak down so fast it wouldn't know what had happened to it. Sure, there was a miniscule possibility that I'd be wrong, but that's only because I'm not omniscient. God, on the other hand, knows us perfectly and can therefore predict our behaviors perfectly. If He is right about what He knows about us, just like I was right about what I knew about Charlie, that doesn't mean I have no say in what I choose to do. I still have that right, even if God knows me well enough to be able to predict with 100% accuracy what I'm going to do.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.
That this is all a play/drama written by God/Brahman; so he knows all past. present and future. You might then ask; What's the purpose? God/Consciousness is the experiencer in all of us. When this consciousness shines through a limited form it experiences limitation and then the glory of experiencing ever-advancing consciousness until Oneness with the All.
 
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