Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

[URAVIP2ME]

Define "all knowing".
The reason I ask is because IMO an "all knowing" being would know all.
It would know every single decision you could make, even if you do not know of them, every single decision you do make, and the outcomes for each one.

Revelation 20:8 B mentions people who aren't counted or numbered - Jeremiah 33:22
Just as the ocean's grains of sand can't be counted or measured. Those faithful at the end of Jesus' 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth is an unknown number. Unknown because we don't know who are the ones who will have endured to the end of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth - Matthew 24:13 - the choice is freely ours to make.

 

[Scott C.]

Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.

I don't believe that God chooses to not know the future. He knows all things, past, present and future. I also believe that we have free will. It does make my head spin to think that God knows what I'm going to do in the future, because he knows me so well. That would imply that my future is determined in advance, since I'm 100% predictable by an Omniscient God. That troubles my sense of free will. But then again, I don't understand the infinite.

On the other hand, I have a theory that rests well with my way of thinking. If God lives in the past, present, and future, then he observes the future in the same sense that we observe the present. Knowing the future because you observe it as the present, is different from knowing the future based on an intelligent and faultless prediction. This allows for free will.

 

[McBell]

Well, knowledge is epistomologically tricky. If humans "know" something about another's future, it would have no bearing on their will or not. People are allowed to be wrong when knowing. God, however, cannot ever be wrong, because if he was, he could not be all knowing. If God knows something in the future is going to happen, it can't not happen. It has to happen, regardless how anyone wills it to happen or not.

You keep repeating this as though his being god makes any difference.
You have not addressed the coercion rebuttal.
If you cannot even address it, how can you refute it?

Sure, but he all knows all the choices I will make in advance. Nothing about a lack of free will suggest that there aren't multiple options one could potentially will and try to make happen. The reasoning behind the choice is fixed (in an all-knowing god situation). For any given choice, God would know all the available choices I would have before I would be, and would know how I would reason through those choices, and by the means by which I make a decision, and by the means I go about expressing that will, all before such a choice was ever presented to me. How can I reason through a decision differently than how God already knows I'm going to reason through it?

If revealed to you your future choices, you would have a point.
However, since god has not revealed it, there is no coercion.
Therefore you are free to choose.

 

[McBell]

All-knowing as in, the ability to answer every question correctly, or to describe anything with veracity?

I mean, the problem comes with "all-knowing" in general, as the concept itself is sort of contradictory. How does an all-knowing entity address a loaded question, for example... It's not quite clear to me... It's quite comforting though, to think there is an entity out there with such knowledge:

Psalm 139

1 Lord, you have examined me
and know all about me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I get up.
You know my thoughts before I think them.
3 You know where I go and where I lie down.
You know everything I do.
4 Lord, even before I say a word,
you already know it.
5 You are all around me—in front and in back—
and have put your hand on me.
6 Your knowledge is amazing to me;
it is more than I can understand...

13 You made my whole being;
you formed me in my mother’s body.
14 I praise you because you made me in an amazing and wonderful way.
What you have done is wonderful.
I know this very well.
15 You saw my bones being formed
as I took shape in my mother’s body.
When I was put together there,
16 you saw my body as it was formed.
All the days planned for me
were written in your book
before I was one day old.

Is it your opinion that the opinion quoted from Psalms is somehow more than the authors opinion?
If so, based on what?

 

[Skwim]

I don't believe that God chooses to not know the future. He knows all things, past, present and future. I also believe that we have free will. It does make my head spin to think that God knows what I'm going to do in the future, because he knows me so well. That would imply that my future is determined in advance, since I'm 100% predictable by an Omniscient God.

(Djhwoodwerks hasn't been around since last night, so let me stick my nose in.)

It absolutely does. And you're more than 100% predictable, but 100% knowable. Furthermore, because god knows what you will do there's no such thing as choosing to do any differently. You have to do A rather than B. Period. End of discussion.

That troubles my sense of free will.

And it should. Gods omnipotence is wholly incompatible with free will.

On the other hand, I have a theory that rests well with my way of thinking. If God lives in the past, present, and future, then he observes the future in the same sense that we observe the present. Knowing the future because you observe it as the present, is different from knowing the future based on an intelligent and faultless prediction. This allows for free will.

You imply that god observes the future as the present. I don't know how you came upon this curious bit of knowledge, but it's certainly an odd one, implying that god is, what, incapable of differentiating the future from the present? I would think that, as all-powerful as he is, god would observe the past as the past, the present as the present, and the future as the future. And obviously, knowing something is far different from the intelligent and faultless prediction of it. But how this has any bearing on the validity of free will is beyond me. Care to explain?

 

[metis]

Gods omnipotence is wholly incompatible with free will.

And Einstein agreed with you, as he postulated how could God create all and yet not know how it all would pan out.

 

[Scott C.]

(Djhwoodwerks hasn't been around since last night, so let me stick my nose in.)

You imply that god observes the future as the present. I don't know how you came upon this curious bit of knowledge, but it's certainly an odd one, implying that god is, what, incapable of differentiating the future from the present? I would think that, as all-powerful as he is, god would observe the past as the past, the present as the present, and the future as the future. And obviously, knowing something is far different from the intelligent and faultless prediction of it. But how this has any bearing on the validity of free will is beyond me. Care to explain?

Yes, of course, God can distinguish between past, present, and future. What I meant to say is that God can see the future just as he and we can see the present. We don't predict the present, we observe it. God observes the future with no need for prediction. I'm not certain about any of this, because from my point of view, we can only understand these things based on what God has revealed on the subject.

You asked where I came up with this idea. Here's a passage from Moses 6:1 in the Pearl of Great Price:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

I interpret this as meaning that all things, including the future, are "present to God". The past, present, and future are one eternal "now" to God. I just found a quote from Neal Maxwell, a former LDS Apostle, which seems to support my thoughts:

"The Lord Himself said that He `knoweth all things, for all things
are present' before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that `all
things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.)
Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged
and discerning familiarity with us-but of the stunning reality
that the past and present and future are part of an `eternal now'
with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)" (Neal A.
Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 7,8.)

Suppose I watch John walk by my window and I report what I saw. My observation does not negate his free will choice to have done it. So it is with God's observation of the future. It does not negate our free will.

 

[Skwim]

Suppose I watch John walk by my window and I report what I saw. My observation does not negate his free will choice to have done it. So it is with God's observation of the future. It does not negate our free will.

So, if god looks ahead in the future and sees you making a left hand turn at 12:10 pm on April 3rd, 2020, do you think at that very same moment in the future you could do any differently, say turn right? Nope, you will have to turn left. There is no such thing as having a free will to do any differently. You must turn left. And so it is with everything in your future. God, being omniscient, negates all such free will. God sees everything and therefore fixes it all as inevitable. Free will simply ain't.

 

[Scott C.]

God doesn't look ahead to the future. He lives IN the future. He lives IN the present. He lives IN the past. How he does that is of course beyond my comprehension. But this is just my speculation based on some reasoning applied to some scriptures. But since I believe that my scriptures are true, I accept the fact that God knows the future while allowing us free will. I find this easier to understand in the context of God "observing" the future rather than his "predicting" the future, based on his knowledge of the present. If you're suggesting that it's impossible to know the future and maintain free will, and therefore the God of the Bible cannot exist as described in the Bible, I completely disagree. There is very little that we can comprehend about our Omnipotent and Omniscient God...simply beyond human capacity. I take him at his word that he can do that which I don't comprehend.

 

[McBell]

So, if god looks ahead in the future and sees you making a left hand turn at 12:10 pm on April 3rd, 2020, do you think at that very same moment in the future you could do any differently, say turn right? Nope, you will have to turn left. There is no such thing as having a free will to do any differently. You must turn left. And so it is with everything in your future. God, being omniscient, negates all such free will. God sees everything and therefore fixes it all as inevitable. Free will simply ain't.

How is gods knowing what you do effecting your choice?

 

[Skwim]

How is gods knowing what you do effecting your choice?

God's knowledge eliminates choice. There is no such thing as choosing. . . anything. . . .ever. From the time you were born your destiny included the fact that you will turn left. You have to do as god sees you doing, and do no differently. To do differently would mean that god is not omnipotent and does not know everything.

 

[McBell]

God's knowledge eliminates choice. There is no such thing as choosing. . . anything. . . .ever. From the time you were born your destiny included the fact that you will turn left. You have to do as god sees you doing, and do no differently. To do differently would mean that god is not omnipotent and does not know everything.

What coercion exists with god knowing?

 

[Skwim]

What coercion exists with god knowing?

The "coercion" of inevitability. You have to turn left.

.

 

[McBell]

The "coercion" of inevitability.

You do know what "coercion" means, right?
Your reply suggests you don't.

You have to turn left.

.

ONLY if you know about it before hand.
If you do not know, where is the coercion?

 

[Skwim]

You do know what "coercion" means, right?

Indeed I do. And please note that I put quotation marks around "coercion" to signify that although am about to use it I don't regard it as the best term or even the correct one. I took your use of "coercion" as meaning "forcing," which, by the way, is mentioned in the following definition of the word:

coercion
[koh-ur-shuh n]

noun
1. the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
​

coerce
[koh-urs]

verb (used with object), coerced, coercing.
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition:

Source: dictionary.com​

Now, if you fail to see that an inevitability ("sure to occur, happen, or come; unalterable:") in essence denotes a forced condition, in this case, upon a person, then I'm sorry.

 

[McBell]

Indeed I do. And please note that I put quotation marks around "coercion" to signify that although am about to use it I don't regard it as the best term or even the correct one. I took your use of "coercion" as meaning "forcing," which, by the way, is mentioned in the following definition of the word:

coercion
[koh-ur-shuh n]

noun
1. the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
​

coerce
[koh-urs]

verb (used with object), coerced, coercing.
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition:

Source: dictionary.com​

Now, if you fail to see that an inevitability ("sure to occur, happen, or come; unalterable:") in essence denotes a forced condition, in this case, upon a person, then I'm sorry.

I fail to make the connection that some random third unknown party knowing what you will do, but not in any way informing you, is coercion.
Perhaps it has to do with your definition of "freewill"?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

To God, present, past,and future, are all alike. God exists outside time and space.

If time and space were doughnut shaped God could see the entirety at once.
His decisions might well be made in full knowledge of every thing that is past and to come.
Any change he made, would be little different to us repairing a three dimensional object, when done the repair/change would not be seen.

We never even notice his interventions.
most would say he never intervenes.
But we could never know.

 

[Parsimony]

I fail to make the connection that some random third unknown party knowing what you will do, but not in any way informing you, is coercion.
Perhaps it has to do with your definition of "freewill"?

I think Skwim might be saying something along the lines of these three possibilities.

1) The future is determined and God knows it.
2) The future is determined and God doesn't know it.
3) The future is undetermined and God doesn't know it.

The simple act of God knowing isn't what causes the future to be determined. It is, rather, the act of God knowing that demonstrates that the future is determined. Or something.

 

[Skwim]

I fail to make the connection that some random third unknown party knowing what you will do, but not in any way informing you, is coercion.

Don't know what or who this random third unknown party is, but your question using the term "coercion" (What coercion exists with god knowing?), was a bit befuddling, so I did the best I could with it.

Perhaps it has to do with your definition of "freewill"?

I commonly define it as the ability to have done differently. I know this past tense definition may seem odd, but I think it most clearly expresses the concept.


.

 

[McBell]

Don't know what or who this random third unknown party is, but your question using the term "coercion" (What coercion exists with god knowing?), was a bit befuddling, so I did the best I could with it.

Um...
god is an example of a third party.
Free will is being able to choose without coercion...

I commonly define it as the ability to have done differently. I know this past tense definition may seem odd, but I think it most clearly expresses the concept.
.

The ability to act according to one's own discretion.