Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

[George-ananda]

You assumed one can freely choose and that god knows it. However, you made no case for freely choosing, so I feel my position that there is no such thing as freely choosing still holds. Want to posit that "God knows you would freely choose A" then you first have to show that freely choosing can be true.

Sounds like you are taking quite a controversial thing as a premise so your argument is not too impressive. Many think we have a non-material soul that has free choice. So, it's all in the assumptions.

I'm just here as an academic exercise anyway accepting the dualist (God and creation are two) assumption as a given (although I don't hold that position personally). I am non-dualist (God and creation are not-two) so the question but I enjoy a good logical debate.

 

[Skwim]

Sounds like you are taking quite a controversial thing as a premise so your argument is not too impressive.

And your remark here, which ignores my challenge, indicates an inability to show that freely choosing can be true, an inability I fully understand. And, this "thing" which you say is the premise of my argument, is my argument: Because god knows what one will do in the future, one can't do otherwise. All else is explanation and clarification of the "why this is so." That my argument doesn't impress you much is fine. I think most people find the notion repulsive, and dismiss it out of hand, so kudos to you for even listening.

 

[George-ananda]

And your remark here, which ignores my challenge, indicates an inability to show that freely choosing can be true,

Think about what are saying. Of course Free Will 'can' be true.

 

[McBell]

Well, that is fair enough. Given the supposed attributes of an Abrahamic God, I do not see how it would be possible to act in a way that contradicts God's knowledge. He may not actively being coercing, but it doesn't really solve the issue of free will in my mind.

Fair enough.
However, you have not shown how knowing what will be chosen effects free will.
You have merely made the declaration that it does.

OASN:
Would not "all knowing" mean knowing every single choose you CAN make AND the outcomes from every single choose you could make?

 

[Parsimony]

I have a hard time understanding how will can be truly free regardless of whether God knows the future or not. The only possibilities I can conceive of for the functioning of a system are determinism (everything in the system is caused by something else), randomness (nothing in the system is predictable) or some combination of the two (some parts of the system are causal and some are random). None of these options seem compatible with one being fully responsible for their actions. What other options are there?

 

[FearGod]

Simple question really. I'm having dinner tonight. There are some one million+ combinations of food arrangements I could eat tonight. I haven't picked one yet. God already knows which one I am going to pick.

So what will I have for dinner tonight? The one thing God already knows I'm going to have, or any of the 999,999+ other options I could have had if I had so chose to do so? What will do I have to make any of those 999,999+ dishes?

And if you chose nothing then will God force you to choose one ?
Knowing doesn't mean forcing and hence you have the free will.

 

[Skwim]

Think about what are saying. Of course Free Will 'can' be true.

Then please show how, if you would.

 

[Skwim]

I have a hard time understanding how will can be truly free regardless of whether God knows the future or not.

It can't, but sometimes it's interesting to entertain the "God knows everything" premise.

The only possibilities I can conceive of for the functioning of a system are determinism (everything in the system is caused by something else), randomness (nothing in the system is predictable) or some combination of the two (some parts of the system are causal and some are random). None of these options seem compatible with one being fully responsible for their actions. What other options are there?

From all that I've read, there aren't any. All of which leaves free will in the dust.

 

[viole]

I have a hard time understanding how will can be truly free regardless of whether God knows the future or not. The only possibilities I can conceive of for the functioning of a system are determinism (everything in the system is caused by something else), randomness (nothing in the system is predictable) or some combination of the two (some parts of the system are causal and some are random). None of these options seem compatible with one being fully responsible for their actions. What other options are there?

None.

But I am not sure we cannot make sense of "free" will even under these premises. The fact that the processes going on in our brains are inscrutable, can still make free will possible.

Im some cases we can effectively apply a certain epistemology, even if the underlying fundamental mechanisms seem to disconfirm it. For instance, when I play roulette, I can consider it random, even though the underlying mechanisms that lead to a certain result are perfectly deterministic.

Ciao

- viole

 

[George-ananda]

Then please show how, if you would.

For example, we can have an immaterial soul that has free volition. It is easy to show something 'can' exist by just showing it a logical possibility. Proving is what's hard.

 

[George-ananda]

I have a hard time understanding how will can be truly free regardless of whether God knows the future or not. The only possibilities I can conceive of for the functioning of a system are determinism (everything in the system is caused by something else), randomness (nothing in the system is predictable) or some combination of the two (some parts of the system are causal and some are random). None of these options seem compatible with one being fully responsible for their actions. What other options are there?

That consciousness is not created by material interactions but is a fundamental irreducible thing.

 

[Parsimony]

That consciousness is not created by material interactions but is a fundamental irreducible thing.

That doesn't answer the question of how it works. Also, consciousness and will are not the same thing.

 

[Skwim]

For example, we can have an immaterial soul that has free volition.

Sorry, but a mere claim, "an immaterial soul . . . has free volition" is not convincing.

It is easy to show something 'can' exist by just showing it a logical possibility. Proving is what's hard.

Then please show us the logical possibility that free will can exist.

 

[Skwim]

But I am not sure we cannot make sense of "free" will even under these premises. The fact that the processes going on in our brains are inscrutable, can still make free will possible.

How so?

 

[dust1n]

And if you chose nothing then will God force you to choose one ?
Knowing doesn't mean forcing and hence you have the free will.

If I had nothing, either God already knew in advance that I would have nothing, and thus having anything was not an available option, or God was incorrect in what I would have, thus not all-knowing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That makes the Abraham test a futile exercise that just scared a poor kid.
Ciao
- viole

Isaac was Abraham's son, but why are you indicating Isaac was a kid ( small child ) ?

Isaac did Not resist his elderly father. They were showing how confident they were in a physical resurrection.
God promised Abraham that through his seed ( offspring Isaac ) Messiah would come.
In order for Isaac to have children he would have to be alive.
The only way a dead Isaac could be alive and have children would be via a healthy physical resurrection.
Once God saw their confidence in the resurrection is when God stopped them from going through with it - Hebrews 11:17-19

 

[McBell]

If I had nothing, either God already knew in advance that I would have nothing, and thus having anything was not an available option, or God was incorrect in what I would have, thus not all-knowing.

Define "all knowing".
The reason I ask is because IMO an "all knowing" being would know all.
It would know every single decision you could make, even if you do not know of them, every single decision you do make, and the outcomes for each one.

 

[dust1n]

Fair enough.
However, you have not shown how knowing what will be chosen effects free will.
You have merely made the declaration that it does.

Well, knowledge is epistomologically tricky. If humans "know" something about another's future, it would have no bearing on their will or not. People are allowed to be wrong when knowing. God, however, cannot ever be wrong, because if he was, he could not be all knowing. If God knows something in the future is going to happen, it can't not happen. It has to happen, regardless how anyone wills it to happen or not.

OASN:
Would not "all knowing" mean knowing every single choose you CAN make AND the outcomes from every single choose you could make?

Sure, but he all knows all the choices I will make in advance. Nothing about a lack of free will suggest that there aren't multiple options one could potentially will and try to make happen. The reasoning behind the choice is fixed (in an all-knowing god situation). For any given choice, God would know all the available choices I would have before I would be, and would know how I would reason through those choices, and by the means by which I make a decision, and by the means I go about expressing that will, all before such a choice was ever presented to me. How can I reason through a decision differently than how God already knows I'm going to reason through it?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It is the same to God. Time itself as we know it was part of creation yes? He created the end of time along with the beginning, He is not bound by the laws of his own creation, we are.
free will and fate coexist from two different perspectives

But there is No end to time.
The earth abides forever - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B, and the humble meek will be here on earth forever.- Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29

God is from everlasting - Psalms 90:2 - so only God was ' before ' the beginning of creation.
In heaven, before God sending Jesus to earth, Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 3:14 - so even Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Eternity is in our hearts: For each day we can think of we can think of a next day. We can endlessly count forwards and backwards.
So, we were created to live forever. Angels in heaven, and most humans to live forever on earth - Psalms 115:16

 

[dust1n]

Define "all knowing".
The reason I ask is because IMO an "all knowing" being would know all.
It would know every single decision you could make, even if you do not know of them, every single decision you do make, and the outcomes for each one.

All-knowing as in, the ability to answer every question correctly, or to describe anything with veracity?

I mean, the problem comes with "all-knowing" in general, as the concept itself is sort of contradictory. How does an all-knowing entity address a loaded question, for example... It's not quite clear to me... It's quite comforting though, to think there is an entity out there with such knowledge:

Psalm 139

1 Lord, you have examined me
and know all about me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I get up.
You know my thoughts before I think them.
3 You know where I go and where I lie down.
You know everything I do.
4 Lord, even before I say a word,
you already know it.
5 You are all around me—in front and in back—
and have put your hand on me.
6 Your knowledge is amazing to me;
it is more than I can understand...

13 You made my whole being;
you formed me in my mother’s body.
14 I praise you because you made me in an amazing and wonderful way.
What you have done is wonderful.
I know this very well.
15 You saw my bones being formed
as I took shape in my mother’s body.
When I was put together there,
16 you saw my body as it was formed.
All the days planned for me
were written in your book
before I was one day old.