Does God exist? (YmirGF 'perspective of a single person' vs 'Islam: World Major religion')

[summia]

I am slightly confused why anyone would need an explanation. My personal experiences proved themselves before my inner eyes. This experience is well beyond what some would term "Cosmic Consciousness" or "Samadhi" or "Moksha". I simply call it Framework 2 with the perception of physical reality being Framework 1. The kicker is that this state of awareness acts as a springboard to "meeting" entities from what we could logically call Framework 3. Suffice to say that in order to stay in Framework 3 one has to have a full working knowledge of Framework 1 and 2. Ditto for Framework 4 and beyond. These are arbitrary designations between "levels" of awareness as there are not really "levels" as in say a step ladder. Try to imagine a theoretical stepladder that allowed you to step up and go right or left, frontwards or backwards just as easily as you could just head "up". In essence, Reality is a melange of psychological gestalts, most of which have their basis in Being AS energy rather than how things are in our tiny world of flesh and bone.

Religious people might interpret traversing these "inner realms" as done via the Holy Spirit. I don't look at it that way. The easiest way to understand it is that these adventures are done via out-of-body experiences wherein one resolves reality without the confusion of the physical senses.

Okay ket suppose I get agreed with you about "inner realms" , right!
Now what are the evidences of your Frame Works?
Again i say, "Do you believe that atom exists, having nutrons and electrons and further tiny quakes?"
Why?
But no one have ever seen an Atom! even not the scientists have seen the atom from the naked eye!
It means you don't trust that atoms are proved!

 

[doppelganger]

The topic title appears to be misleading. All I've seen so far is the "perspective of a single person" vs. "the perspective of another single person."

 

[summia]

The topic title appears to be misleading. All I've seen so far is the "perspective of a single person" vs. "the perspective of another single person."

I'm the representative of Islam!

I didn't claim at any post that I am telling what I experince!

 

[summia]

But, my dear Summia, I didn't claim otherwise now did I. You really must pay more attention to the details of what I am trying to tell you. I have my evidence, first hand evidence at that and I require no further proofs. Most certainly not the timid, palid writings of man or his alleged "God". There is no scripture ANYWHERE that describes things the way I see reality. Imho, most views, from the oldest to the newest are practically the babble of small children who have little understanding of the topics they are discussing. My main point is Summia, I didn't need your books, the Jews books, the Christian's Books or any other books. I got my information from the Source.

Means you are not ready to know about other scriptures!
Then I have no more to say for you...


I end this discussion!

How can I tell to a person about my religion who is not ready to listen!

I think we must leave it now!

May Allah Almighty show you guidance before you die, Ameen!

-​

 

[jacquie4000]

I have not seen God, Although none seen Him!
When we believe in God/His existence, then surly it means we have evidences in our common sense!
before start, I wish to ask just a little wonder in you Sir Paul (YmirGF)!

Do you believe in existence of God without proofs/evidences?

When one believe's in God that is a belief you carry inside yourself. Although countless people believe, it is still based upon faith. You can not prove God's existence.

Just as YmirGF has had visions and he knows them to be true because he has experianced them, he can not prove them to you to be true.

 

[summia]

You may well consider my words to be blasphemy and yet knowing what is in YOUR TERMS "god" as I do, I understand that true blasphemy does not exists and that most religious people have simply been misled.

I also challenged you to a debate for a couple of reasons.
1. I know you cannot factually substantiate your claims.
2. I thought it might be helpful for you to converse with someone adept at English, in English. It is a small mercy, but heck, I have a million of 'em.
3. We both might learn something important from the other... although I admit I am at a loss as to what you could possibly tell me about the nature of God that I am as of yet unaware.
4. Our discussion might just show you that so-called infidels or kaffirs are not blind to what you would call "god". I am proud to call myself an infidel as it is beyond my imagination that I would ever in my wildest dreams adopt Islam as my so-called "faith". The reason being is that when you can already see something you do not have to have "faith" that it is in fact "There". You simply see what is in front of your "eyes"... and faith becomes meaningless.
5. At the end of the day, folks who stroll through this thread might find our interaction compelling and thought provoking.

I am sure there are a few more reasons but that is just off the top of my head.

-​

And I can't debate you for these reasons:
1) You always truned away from your promises and words
2) you are not ready to listen from scritpures and I'm the follower of Quran
3) you are not in mode of learning as you mentioned in last thread very nocely "We will learn from each other"

My heart is not ready to debate you and ever, i will never debate you at any post!

Have a happy and fool life!

 

[autonomous1one1]

Greetings Summia and YmirGF. Some of us are reading this thread with interest and appreciate your undertaking such a challenge. My questions about part of the OP, 'to prove God exists,' are not meant to interfere but merely to help clarification.

The word 'exists' usually has meaning related to being, that is, it means something is within space and time along side other things. Is this what is intended, or rather than to prove God exists is it meant actually to prove God is, or prove the reality of God, since all of us agree that God is the source of creation and is beyond mere being?

An 'open' prove without specification of what kind of proof nor proof to whom is interesting. It seems that both of you have somewhat agreed that God can be found within and perhaps proven to one's self. Did not Mohammad say 'Those who know themselves know their Lord.'? Anyway, YmirGF, would you say that your experiences within have proven God to you? (The word 'you' is used loosely here as commonly understood but in full recognition that for YmirGF it is ambigious.)

 

[autonomous1one1]

Whoops! Several other posts were being made while I was drafting my post above; and Summia has withdrawn. Summia, I respectfully request you to come back and continue discussion. Some of us are really interested in what is proof to you, and what your thoughts are in general on this subject.

 

[doppelganger]

I'm the representative of Islam!

I didn't claim at any post that I am telling what I experince!

Then why should I care what your "truth" is, if you haven't any personal experience from which it derives? In the law, talking about things about which you don't have any personal knowledge, but are just repeating what someone else has said, is called "hearsay." Such hearsay is generally not considered credible or admissible evidence.

 

[Wandered Off]

Then why should I care what your "truth" is, if you haven't any personal experience from which it derives?

How much difference would that really make to you, Dopp? Even if there were personal experience for summia, you cannot share that experience except through limited communication, which inevitably mixes your own experiences with summia's.

 

[ayani]

also... with much respect and sympathy, i think that linguistic nuances and barriers might also be playing a role in communication breakdown here.

i'm sure Summia has personal experiences with the 'truth of Islam' in her life- otherwise, wouldn't it make more sense to walk away disillusioned? perhaps for her, speaking of and defending her religion is itself a sufficent experience, in part.

 

[doppelganger]

How much difference would that really make to you, Dopp?

It makes a huge difference. I wouldn't (and can't) challenge someone's personal experiences of their own spirituality. But I would have no compunction about challenging ontological claims masquerading as "objective" truth, solely based on arguments by appeal to authority.

 

[YmirGF]

Yeah! I totaly disbelief and for this I don't wish to know what is meaningfull for you!
Lol.........

That's what I love about you Summia, you are so terribly open minded. Tell me, do you think I truly care if you believe me or not? To be clear, it is of no consequence to me whatsoever if you believe me or not. It is not relevant to my reality. I am glad it gave you a chuckle however.

YOU are important for YOURSELF only sir!

And how might I ask do you reason this is so? I would be fascinated to see your reasoning, but I shant hold my breath.

YOU know when a person used the word "I" while putting the aurguments, it is meaningless in fact!

Given that this so-called "debate" was between a single person vs. and an entire yolk of slavedom, err sorry, Islam, how precisely did you expect me to voice my opinions without saying "I"? Riddle me that!

don't practice it in outer world, frankly, don't. espacially in preaching! Trust me!

Thanks for the advice Summia but I am aware of the so-called rules. Again, how exactly is a single person to state their opinion without resorting to using "I" now and again. I would be greatly entertained to hear your response. By the way, I detest preachers and preaching. M'kay.

So you believe that God can be proven by transfering volumes of Informations?

Oy vey. :cover: You just don't "get it" very well, do you.

So what volumes of informations you have, that God has transfered you?

You are without question a very "thick" person. Frankly Summia, you need a better grasp of English before you are ready for deep discussions in a foreign language. It is apparent that you do not understand nuances of speech very well. At least you understand better than I understand Urdu (which is not at all).

one piont more, if you believe that info can be transfered by mind to mind then why you blows about Muhmmad pbuh is false. May be he could done such thing!

Indeed and don't think for a second that I have not thought a great deal about that. The thing is, one MUST have a vast library of experiences of their own to detect the flaws in the experience of others. Given that we have second-hand and third-hand accounts of the Prophets so-called "revelations" it is fairly obvious that he took his visions literally. That, my friend, is never wise.

In light of this I won't bore you with my realizations resulting from my appointment with Vishnu. Evidently first hand experience means little to you, but I have to ask, does that include your own experiences? Do you doubt them too?

Hmmm!

Indeed. At least we agree on something.

No I'm not . I have met very serious cases in facts!
They even believe that they are God himself. As Pharaoh did. but lost! he lost his world.

Well since I am no fool, I would never claim to be the totality of what God is. That is a bit silly. There is indeed a state of consciousness that when entered one has the deep and abiding perception that one is in fact God. It is a rather startling experience which several members of this board have in fact had, so I know that it is not just my own perception. Been there, done that. Burned the T-shirt. Upon deeper realization one begins to see through this illusion however. Aside from this you are indeed denigrating my ideas, but "tit for tat", eh.

So, thats your bitter try to prove Islam as false religion.

Who said I was trying to prove that Islam was false? It does a fantastic job of doing that on its own. One only needs to read the "inspired" writings of many Islamic "scholars" to understand that their intellect is warped by their belief.

I suggest you to read the scriptures of all religion.

In all likelihood Summia, I am probably more knowlegable about various religions than you yourself are. Been there, done that. Burned the T-shirt.

Those claims that "no one has seen God by naked eye!"

I can only chuckle and state unequivically, "What do they know about anything." You and people like yourself simply assume that these brilliant folks knew what they were talking about. Sorry to burst the balloon. They are like small children who do not understand that which they babble on about and are seemingly so full of knowledge and so-called "wisdom". Not!

How can you say only in Islam?

Well, it is also true of many other religions, but we are talking about Islam aren't we? Summia, please pay more attention to details.

If someone has seen God then why it is not recorded in authentic records?

Define authentic! I have written for thirty years, which is likely longer than you have graced our planet with your inspired presence. Simply by the fact that I don't want "followers" should tell you I am up to something different from the norm. I don't want to be the centre of people's focus. Their focus should be concentrated on the god found within themselves... not outside of themselves which is a fool's errand.

one can easly fool others!

True and I agree that is largley why Islam has been so successful.

So what is the garenty that i should trust you?

I don't know? Why must you trust me? If your heart does not echo what I am saying then simply change the channel as it were. You have to understand Summia that my "message" is NOT for all people. I discovered a long time ago now that people simply will not accept ideas that do not mesh with their current understanding. Not very many are ready to accept what I am saying. Those who are, for the most part, do not need to read what I write as they are already WELL on their way into the realms of the inner self.
I write simply to be a support to those people because I know it is a very lonely road, to "go it alone" and I have gone further down that road than anyone I have ever encountered (in books, presentations or in person). The oddity is that I am fairly adept at explaining what I see and I offer hope to those who can see it. The rest of mankind is of little concern to me. It isn't my job, lol. Someone will be along shortly that will kindle the inner fires within the minds of my fellow human animals and I am sort of like a member of "his" advance team. Again, it is of no consequence to me if you believe me or not. It simply does not matter.

Look! Muhammad pbuh, claimed to be the prophet of God and lo! a majority has a faith in him, should I not believe in that person!

If every Muslim jumped off a bridge would you follow them? Your argument is not compelling. Charles Manson and Jim Jones claimed to be God too and they had dedicated "followers". Is your statement supposed to be meaningful?

he was in fact more trust able then you.

Summia, I don't care if you trust me or not. I trust you understand. Should I care? My "message" is not for people like you. You have already made your choices and it is a bit late for you to look at anything else objectively.

Why should only believe you?

Beats me. Why should you? Conversely you seem to think that just because of bunch of people believe in Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] that that should impress me. I have read the Qur'an several times, a slew of Hadiths and fatwas till I could scream and I can't say that I am terribly impressed with the Muslim view of logic or reason. If anything Muslim scholars are the masters of the circular argument and unfortunately a circular argument is a logical fallacy.

 

[TruthShallSetYouFree]

I doubt there is a believer(whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever) that can convince an nontheist that there is a God. Most atheists I have known are very decent people and just want to live their lives. But unfortunately there are some atheists who not only not believe in God, but don't want anyone else to believe in Him either. The really strange thing is that they are so against anyone trying to "convert" them, yet they try to "convert" people not to believe in God. It is a double standard that really gets on my nerves. I have absolutely nothing against the atheists who want to understand religion even if they don't believe in it.

I have proof for myself that God exists, but not the kind of proof that would convince an atheist. I don't even try.

I posted almost the exact same thing on here somewhere. Definitely a double standard. "Some" atheists cannot stand the fact that people believe in God.

You cannot prove the existence of God because God does not want His existance to be proved. God wants everyone to come to Him on their own free will and by faith. If there were proof of God's existence, then of course everyone is going to follow God. He only wants those who have so much love in their hearts that they can believe in Him without the proof. However, many do get their proof while sincerely looking for the truth of God or after they have already given their lives to God.

To me, over 85,000 Americans claiming to have had near-death experiences, many of which claim to have came in contact with a bright light that is too full of love to explain and most claiming very similar things, such as viewing their lives and every single person they had ever hurt, etc, and there even being two and three years olds claiming to have seen a bright light, etc, and many floating above their bodies and knowing the names of the people who had worked on them while they were unconcious, etc. Many doctors have given their lives to God b/c of 2 and 3 year olds telling these stories of near-death experiences. Some have even came back to be proven psychics. I seriously doubt so many people would make these stories up. And the thing is, so many of them come back and live their lives as much better people. I have read an atheist near-death experience, too, and it wasn't pretty. And guess what? They are now Christians. I also read an ex-Muslim's (now) from Jordan's near-death experience who is now a Christian. To me, hundreds of thousands of miracles people have told throughout our history relating to God is proof. To me, the miracle of life itself and how perfect the earth is, is proof of God. And I am talking about how every living thing has a purpose. To me, thousands of Muslims in many different countries claiming to have had visions/dreams of Jesus and then converting to Christianity in the last ten or so years, when before, Muslims converting to Christainity was almost unheard of, is proof of God. Almost every single ex-Muslim, now Christian, testimony I have read claims some sort of a miracle, which to me is proof of God. God has to show them a miracle before they will come to Him b/c they have been so brainwashed since birth, there is usually no other way. The Biblical archeological findings, too, are astonishing, which I will post some of the ones Bible critics had made fun of for years, claiming the Bible was fiction just b/c this or that had never been found. We do not know the exact date Jesus was crucified, but scientists today do know there was, indeed, an eclipse that make everything dark around the time we believe He was crucified. There is also more historical evidence for the life and crucifixtion of Jesus as Christians know it than any other historical figure in or around the time Jesus walked this earth, much of it being from those who were not Christians. The many prophecies in the Bible are amazing. Well, the Bible itself is absolutely astonishing if you really understand how it is laid out and how it works. Personally, I have had a miracle happen to me but this isn't going to prove God exists to any atheists.

 

[TruthShallSetYouFree]

For years, Bible critics swore up and down that the Hittites, known nowhere else but in the Bible, were fictional because nothing spoke of them outside of the Bible. Not anymore:
In 1876 a dramatic discovery changed this perception. A British scholar named A. H. Sayce found inscriptions carved on rocks in Turkey. He suspected that they might be evidence of the Hittite nation. Ten years later, more clay tablets were found in Turkey at a place called Boghaz-koy. German cuneiform expert Hugo Winckler investigated the tablets and began his own expedition at the site in 1906.
Winckler's excavations uncovered five temples, a fortified citadel and several massive sculptures. In one storeroom he found over ten thousand clay tablets. One of the documents proved to be a record of a treaty between Ramesses II and the Hittite king. Other tablets showed that Boghaz-koy was the capital of the Hittite kingdom. Its original name was Hattusha and the city covered an area of 300 acres. The Hittite nation had been discovered!
Dr. Fred Wright summarizes the importance of this find in regard to biblical historicity.
Now the Bible picture of this people fits in perfectly with what we know of the Hittite nation from the monuments. As an empire they never conquered the land of Canaan itself, although the Hittite local tribes did settle there at an early date. Nothing discovered by the excavators has in any way discredited the Biblical account. Scripture accuracy has once more been proved by the archaeologist. And how long have we heard Biblical critics laugh at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? They laugh no more:
The northern most is named Bab edh-Drha. In 1924, renowned archaeologist Dr. William Albright excavated at this site, searching for Sodom and Gomorrah. He discovered it to be a heavily fortified city. Although he connected this city with one of the biblical "Cities of the Plains," he could not find conclusive evidence to justify this assumption.
More digging was done in 1965, 1967, and 1973. The archaeologists discovered a 23-inch thick wall around the city, along with numerous houses and a large temple. Outside the city were huge grave sites where thousands of skeletons were unearthed. This revealed that the city had been well populated during the early Bronze Age, about the time Abraham would have lived.
Most intriguing was evidence that a massive fire had destroyed the city. It lay buried under a coating of ash several feet thick. A cemetery one kilometer outside the city contained charred remains of roofs, posts, and bricks turned red from heat.
Dr. Bryant Wood, in describing these charnel houses, stated that a fire began on the roofs of these buildings. Eventually the burning roof collapsed into the interior and spread inside the building. This was the case in every house they excavated. Such a massive fiery destruction would match the biblical account that the city was destroyed by fire that rained down from heaven. Wood states, "The evidence would suggest that this site of Bab edh-Drha is the biblical city of Sodom."
Five cities of the plain are mentioned in Genesis 14: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zoar, and Zeboiim. Remnants of these other four cities are also found along the Dead Sea. Following a southward path from Bab edh-Drha there is the city called Numeria. Continuing south is the city called es-Safi. Further south are the ancient cities of Feifa and Khanazir. Studies at these cities revealed that they had been abandoned at the same time about 2450–2350 B.C. Many archaeologists believe if Bab ed-Drha is Sodom, Numeria is Gomorrah, and es-Safi is Zoar.
What fascinated the archaeologists is that these cities were covered in the same ash as Bab ed-Drha. Numeria, believed to be Gomorrah, had seven feet of ash in some places. In every one of the destroyed cities ash deposits made the soil a spongy charcoal, making it impossible to rebuild. According to the Bible, four of the five cities were destroyed, leaving Lot to flee to Zoar. Zoar was not destroyed by fire, but was abandoned during this period.
Although archaeologists are still disputing these findings, this is one discovery we will be hearing more about in years to come.
The Walls of Jericho: Remember how scientists, etc, always made fun of the Bible about the Jericho Walls falling outwards instead of inwards. Now those scientists are hiding under their beds in shame b/c this account in the Bible, along with many others on this Biblical story, have been proven to be true via archeology:
Of this amazing discovery Garstang states, "As to the main fact, then, there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely, the attackers would be able to clamber up and over the ruins of the city." This is remarkable because when attacked city walls fall inward, not outward.
A thick layer of soot indicates that the city was destroyed by fire as described in Joshua 6:24. Kenyon describes it this way. "The destruction was complete. Walls and floors were blackened or reddened by fire and every room was filled with fallen bricks." Archaeologists also discovered large amounts of grain at the site. This is again consistent with the biblical account that the city was captured quickly. If it had fallen as a result of a siege, the grain would have been used up. According to Joshua 6:17, the Israelites were forbidden to plunder the city, but had to destroy it totally.
The House of David: Critics of the Bible have sworn up and down David was a fictional character in the Bible. Not anymore:

Despite his key role in Israel's history, until recently no evidence outside the Bible attested to his existence. For this reason critics questioned the existence of a King David.
In the summer of 1993, an archaeologist made what has been labeled as a phenomenal and stunning discovery. Dr. Avraham Biran and his team were excavating a site labeled Tell Dan, located in northern Galilee at the foot of Mt. Hermon. Evidence indicates that this is the site of the Old Testament land of Dan.
The team had discovered an impressive royal plaza. As they were clearing the debris, they discovered in the ruins the remains of a black basalt stele, or stone slab, containing Aramaic inscriptions. The stele contained thirteen lines of writing but none of the sentences were complete. Some of the lines contained only three letters while the widest contained fourteen. The letters that remained were clearly engraved and easy to read. Two of the lines included the phrases "The King of Israel" and "House of David."

I think there is a lot of proof for God, as I said & I think someone else said, once you believe. But God blinds most to the truth when their intentions are only to disprove His existence. Not all, but most. God even brings some people to Him b/c He needs for them to do something. Try sincerely looking for the evidence and I guarantee you will find Him.

 

[gnostic]

Sorry for not getting back to you, Summia. If I had not being busy, I would have replied sooner.

What is Belief?
If you believe some thing, what you need?
Don't scratch your head, just use it!

Anyone can believe in anything...even if those things are not true. What you believe can never be considered as proof.

If a child can believe in fairy godmother or santa clause, then does that mean that there are proof of fairy godmother or of father christmas?

Of course not.

If I drink until I am intoxicated, and see a pink elephant, and I believe that I am really seeing such creature, then does that pink elephant exist?

Of course not.

If you truly think that "believing" and "proof" are one and the same, then you seriously need to use your head. Belief only requires imagination....or the lack of imaginations.

What is faith? can you give the definition of faith?

In the simplest layman term, faith is a "trust" in a "belief" to be "true".

Faith is also not proof or fact. It certainly can be considered to be evidence. Faith is like "opinion". You can actually substitute "faith" with "opinion", because that's all faith is - OPINION.

Example. It is your opinion (ie. faith) that that Allah is your god and your Islam to be true. It is Christian's opinion (ie. again, faith) that their religion is true. It is atheist's opinion that there are no such thing as god or gods, etc, etc.

Faith has no basis of fact, because it doesn't rely on fact for such belief. Fact requires evidences. Evidences that required to be tested and verified with other independent tests.

I think you need to look up the words, faith, belief, fact, proof, etc, Summia, and understand the differences. Perhaps, English is not your first language, so you have language problem, and can't distinguish between belief and proof.

So until you provide me with evidences of the existence of your god, angels, demons, or jinns, then you have nothing more than faith to support your belief.

 

[wednesday]

I posted almost the exact same thing on here somewhere. Definitely a double standard. "Some" atheists cannot stand the fact that people believe in God.

You cannot prove the existence of God because God does not want His existance to be proved. God wants everyone to come to Him on their own free will and by faith. If there were proof of God's existence, then of course everyone is going to follow God. He only wants those who have so much love in their hearts that they can believe in Him without the proof. However, many do get their proof while sincerely looking for the truth of God or after they have already given their lives to God.

To me, over 85,000 Americans claiming to have had near-death experiences, many of which claim to have came in contact with a bright light that is too full of love to explain and most claiming very similar things, such as viewing their lives and every single person they had ever hurt, etc, and there even being two and three years olds claiming to have seen a bright light, etc, and many floating above their bodies and knowing the names of the people who had worked on them while they were unconcious, etc. Many doctors have given their lives to God b/c of 2 and 3 year olds telling these stories of near-death experiences. Some have even came back to be proven psychics. I seriously doubt so many people would make these stories up. atheists.

A lot of Christians as well as other faiths cannot believe that people dont believe in God as well, its a two way street. How can you say that God does not want his existance to be known, hes the most popular being on this rock? Is this your judgement based on experience?

From a scientific perspective the mind is powerful, people like to think they see things that they really didn't, it's not that hard to let go of reality for a few seconds. My perspective is that people come so close to the unknown that they fear the concept of God and turn to 'the unkown' out of fear of a "god's' retribution, as a result of being taught about what happens if you do not obey God and commit unrepented sins. Im not saying you're wrong, i just think theres more than meets the eye with these miracle stories.

 

[summia]

Sorry for not getting back to you, Summia. If I had not being busy, I would have replied sooner.

Anyone can believe in anything...even if those things are not true. What you believe can never be considered as proof.

If a child can believe in fairy godmother or santa clause, then does that mean that there are proof of fairy godmother or of father christmas?

Of course not.

If I drink until I am intoxicated, and see a pink elephant, and I believe that I am really seeing such creature, then does that pink elephant exist?

Of course not.

If you truly think that "believing" and "proof" are one and the same, then you seriously need to use your head. Belief only requires imagination....or the lack of imaginations.

I was impressed by your positive replies. i was not intented to come on this thread but your post was realy a positive one.
I wish to debate you!
Yeah! you were right, every one has a right to believe because every one has ones' own imaginations. But claiming that "your thought is impossible" is rather wrong step for this statement.
Similarly, I believe that I have trust in God while proving His signs. And these all signs are my imaginations to prove God.

Of course, therez no doubt!
If you see the pink elephant while you are toxicated then you surely not seen the pink one. Therefore, I need to prove you that YOU ARE TOXICATED AND FACT IS NOT WHAT YOU SEEN. therez need poof. because a toxicated person never gets understand but a person who is not toxicated can better understand about the reality.

No plz no, I'm not pointing you I just used the example for cleafication by your refernce. So plz don't mind. Don't misunderstand me. I really appritciate your positive responce. I Love to reply.

In the simplest layman term, faith is a "trust" in a "belief" to be "true".

but from our beliefs, means as a Muslims. Truth needs proofs. why we investigate for some thing curious, because to know the true reasons for make our TRUST firm.

Reality don't needs proofs coz it is what we see.
But truth needs proofs because it is the combinations of "reality + Virtuality",to explore the Virtuality we need proofs and evidiences. Isn't so?

Faith is also not proof or fact. It certainly can be considered to be evidence. Faith is like "opinion". You can actually substitute "faith" with "opinion", because that's all faith is - OPINION.

Thats right, i totally agreed.
Thats what i need evidences to prove God. And evidences are what we see around us, even in ourselves a human is the evidence of God's existence. Isn't so?

Example. It is your opinion (ie. faith) that that Allah is your god and your Islam to be true. It is Christian's opinion (ie. again, faith) that their religion is true. It is atheist's opinion that there are no such thing as god or gods, etc, etc.

Yes, really every one is believing ones' own imaginations. and therez should no force.
But what this dosen't means that we are putting our fongers into ur ears and not listening to one another. At least listen! At least listen what other belief is. and further you have your own will. no one could force you. If any one will force you then I promise I AM WITH YOU!

I think you need to look up the words, faith, belief, fact, proof, etc, Summia, and understand the differences. Perhaps, English is not your first language, so you have language problem, and can't distinguish between belief and proof.

If someone don't know about some language, does it means that his/her concept is wrong?
At least I have read all concepts from Hebrew (Bible), Sunskrit (Hindu Vadas) and Holy quran in my own Urdu language. it dose not means that my understandiong about religion is wrong.
yeah! but there may be possiblities that some of your philosophies are not making in my understandings.
And I think my english is not so so so poor to unable to understand simple words. No therez not! be just with me plz!

So until you provide me with evidences of the existence of your god, angels, demons, or jinns, then you have nothing more than faith to support your belief.

Do you not wish to give freedom to me to express my religion?
I'm not saying believe as i said. i just wish to know about yours and wish to tell you about mine. if you don't like someone supporting Islam then I have not forced you to comment. you have your free will.

 

[gnostic]

If someone don't know about some language, does it means that his/her concept is wrong?

No, Summia. However, when you throw around words like "facts" or "proofs" with "belief" and "faith", then it can be cause of misunderstanding. It really depends on the context, which is very important.

Perhaps I have mis-read your posts, but when you explicitly say something like that you can prove it, then perhaps I am not misreading you, but that you are mis-judging your words or you have chosen poor choice of word to get your message across.

Do you not wish to give freedom to me to express my religion?

That's not what I said, Summia. You have every right to your belief.

You have said in post #10

I hav not attemted to urge someone but there is a personality "YmirGF" who claims that NO ONE HAS EVER PROVE THE GOD!
I asked him to discuss with me I can prove God because I believe in God!
Then he replied, "I also believe in GOD but no one has ever proved God!"

Its just not fell wonderful, that how can a person believeing in God with evidences and proofs!

I am NOT questioning that you believe in your god or in your religion. Everybody are entitled to their belief.

I am questioning that you can "prove" God's existence.

Which is why I have replied to you, wanting to know what evidences that you have to prove your claim. Also these 2 terms - "believing" and "proving" - are 2 different things.

You do have freedom to express your religion, but I am questioning what you can prove.

I'm not saying believe as i said. i just wish to know about yours and wish to tell you about mine.

As to my belief. I am agnostic.

I think that some teachings from various religions have some valid arguments, in regarding to teaching of love, compassion, tolerance and morals, because some of these are universal.

However, I am highly dubious....and even skeptical...in regarding to creation, miracles, angelic visitations and the existence of a divine being (or "beings" in the case of polytheistic religions).

I believe in the natural world, ie. I believe in NATURE. I understand that science is attempt by man to understand the natural (and of course, artifical) world. They may not get it right every time, but at least they have developed a method to observe and test the evidence in order to prove or disprove their theories.

You must understand that science is not just about proving theories. It is also about disproving theories.

I'm dubious/skeptical about the supernaturals, like spirits and miracles, because these can never be proven.

I got to go now. I've got classes that I need to attend to.

I would like to answer this quote:

but from our beliefs, means as a Muslims. Truth needs proofs. why we investigate for some thing curious, because to know the true reasons for make our TRUST firm.

...but I have run out of time.

 

[TruthShallSetYouFree]

A lot of Christians as well as other faiths cannot believe that people dont believe in God as well, its a two way street. How can you say that God does not want his existance to be known, hes the most popular being on this rock? Is this your judgement based on experience?

From a scientific perspective the mind is powerful, people like to think they see things that they really didn't, it's not that hard to let go of reality for a few seconds. My perspective is that people come so close to the unknown that they fear the concept of God and turn to 'the unkown' out of fear of a "god's' retribution, as a result of being taught about what happens if you do not obey God and commit unrepented sins. Im not saying you're wrong, i just think theres more than meets the eye with these miracle stories.

If God wanted there to be absolute proof of His existence, then there would be absolute proof that no one could refute and the entire world would believe in Him. Are you saying there is absolute proof of God's existence?

And people who never have had a miracle happen to them and/or read about the many miracles that have happened, really have a hard time believing in them. I know, I used to be one of those people. I am still skeptical about believing things unless I read a lot about the evidence that is out there for believing them myself.

I guess when miracles have happened in front of numerous witnesses, they have all had the same hallucinations? That's interesting. Those with minds that have to have absolute proof and/or scientific explanations always find some way to explain away miracles such as near-death experiences. Another example of this is that so many people have witnessed alien space ships for so many years. People have been witnessing alien space ships since the days of cave men...or, they have found where people drew pictures of what looked like the description and drawings of people today who claim to have seen space ships. Many prominent people have claimed to have seen alien space ships over the years, too, some sightings having many witnesses at one time. But, still, many do not believe. I suppose they have all had similar hallucinations you speak of, many having them at the same time. As for the near-death experiences, they keep trying to come up with reasons why so many people claim to have had these and why they are so similar and every explanation sounds ridiculous to me. First, they tried to say all of these people had similar "hallucinations" because they had been brainwashed in churches, showing people's minds similar pictures of what heaven is supposed to be like...although, no church I have ever attended teaches such things and nowhere in the Bible do I know of explains anything similar to these "hallucinations". But when children who had never even been to church had these very same "hallucinations" during near-death experiences, they couldn't quite be explained away so easily. So, then they tried to say it was the medicine people were getting at the time that made them have these "hallucinations". That is still no explanation for them having such similar "hallucinations". But many people had these same "hallucinations" who had been revived from lay people by CPR, etc, and had not been given any medications. So, then they decided it was some chemical in the brain that kicks in when people are dying that causes people to have these similar "hallucinations". Still no explanation as to why so many have had similar "hallucinations" and why some atheists have experienced a totally different story and became Christians after their experience.

I am not sure why God wants everyone to come to Him of their own free will, but this is what He wants. Perhaps it's because people who are not capable of having faith do not have the hearts to belong in heaven or are not capable of loving God to the point of never turning against Him as satan did while in heaven. There are a whole lot of things we do not know and there are reasons for us not knowing them.

Perhaps people who do not believe at all in miracles should read about the many that have happened throughout history...some hoaxes and some that could not have been hoaxes and certainly not hallucinations with the numerous people who observed the miracles at the same time or the same miracle in the same place at different times, etc. I hardly think that so many different Muslims from so many different places in the world would suddenly start claiming to have had visions/dreams of Jesus if it were not true. I'm not sure how even the worst skeptic in the world could believe that. And is it a coincidence that the closed up Islamic countries happen to be opening up around the same time? I don't think so. Jesus promised not to return until the entire world knows the truth. There's no way for those countries to ever know the truth unless they are somehow opened to hear the truth. But we're talking about Muslims who were very rarely ever convinced before now to convert to Christianity no matter how much they heard, too. You raise a child from day-one to believe something is not true, especially when it involves faith, and very rarely will they change their minds. That is one of the reasons I feel that Jesus the way Christians know and love Him was true. Most of the first Christians were very devout Jews who would have to have seen a miracle happen or heard over like 500 witnesses say they saw the miracle to believe any other way than how they were taught from birth.

I guess people are going to believe whatever they choose to believe and I think they should believe whatever they choose to believe. It's our own choice to be open-minded or close-minded, too, and it is our choice to investigate everything as much as possible before we believe or not believe, or to just listen to one side of the story and decide that has to be true and refuse to ever investigate it ourselves and just believe whatever the propaganda happens to be at the time. In today's world, I am constantly astonished at what people are so willing to believe and how the only way they could possibly believe as they do is because they just decide to believe the propaganda even when the truth is easily investigated and found. This is, indeed, the age of propaganda/lies.