does god exist

[zenzero]

Friends,
We can go on discussing whether god exists or not till infinity but none can prove anything.
Besides it is not important to know if there is a god or not but to realise what is and that is possible by meditating and stilling the mind till no thoughts come on its own.
Then it makes no difference whether god exists or not.
As now for the first time you exist as a part of that whole.
Love & rgds

 

[emiliano]

Ouch! You are angry one, Let see Free Will, that is something that we believer have resigned, we used it choose God and from that point forward it is His will, not our. To what argument are you referring to? In a breath you say that that God take away free will from some, God gave free will to all rational being so that they can choose what is good, God is supremely good, thus not chosen Him condemn some to eternal separation from the supremely good God and that is the ultimate torture as they have no excuses or way back, they get what they freely chose, anyway there are religions that believe that God will at some point in time bring you to His kingdom that the separation is temporal, I find this beautiful and seductive, but because there are no scriptural baking for their theories I believe that is a destructive doctrine that will encourage many to live whatever life style they see fit, be it moral or immoral. They don’t believe in free Will but call themselves Christian.
You say that you prefer to wonder and search all by your little self, that’s your free choice and you will remain a wondering reprobate til God in His mercy gives you the assistance you need to discern spiritual matters, it is really up to you. I have no problems with the existence of atheists and don’t feel compel to prove that God exist to then because I believe that if God has not reveal Himself to them is because he does not want they in His family/the kingdom.
You say that people wonder why God doesn’t go away, what idiot hah! When you know He doesn’t exist, right? Surely you don’t count yourself among such idiot. Right?
Are you saying that slavery in the form that it took in the US past history is the creation of Christianity? Your hopes are ridiculous, humans as rational being that they are have always been religious, it is only irrational brutes that don’t ask the eternal question, why am I here?

 

[rojse]

Pick one and give it a try.

I think if we want to posit a God that actively intervenes in our world, through the working of miracles and the like, this intervention would have a physical and material affect on our world (not much of a miracle, otherwise). Hence, we should be able to prove or disprove such an assertation scientifically.

Obviously, you can't ever prove a negative, but if such a God existed, that conformed to our assertations about God, we could prove it.

 

[Autodidact]

It means that I had an experience which cannot be shared, but which I consider proof of God's existence.

Oh, I see. Does it bother you that this shares characteristics with other people's experiences that should not be taken as proof of anything? What I mean is, shouldn't any experience that cannot be shared be suspect as evidence, let alone proof, of anything?

 

[Storm]

Oh, I see. Does it bother you that this shares characteristics with other people's experiences that should not be taken as proof of anything? What I mean is, shouldn't any experience that cannot be shared be suspect as evidence, let alone proof, of anything?

I've been saying all along that it's NOT objective evidence BECAUSE it can't be shared. So no, that doesn't bother me.

As for considering it proof FOR MYSELF, why should I disregard MY OWN perceptions?

Basically, Auto, I am almost certain that if I could somehow crawl inside your head and let you "see" what I "saw," even you would be forced to conclude that there is a God after all. However, I can't do that, and there's nothing else imx that inescapably leads to that conclusion. Or its opposite.

 

[Willamena]

What I mean is, shouldn't any experience that cannot be shared be suspect as evidence, let alone proof, of anything?

No experience can be shared, anyway. Each individual has a unique perspective on the world. We can share our individual accounts of our experiences, and on occasion produce an intersubjective account amongst many individuals and/or many events, but that's a different thing.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I can't say that I believe in God as a divine supernatural man-like being. But I do believe in what could be called the "spirit". There is some energy or power all living things have which makes them "alive" which scientists haven't quite put a handle on yet. Until humans are able to re-animate, or "bring back the dead" this alone is scientific proof enough for me that such thing as the "spirit" exists. We are ALIVE are we not? I don't believe that this energy is in any way "supernatural". That is just a tag people put on things they can't explain. At one time diseases were thought to be "supernatural". In that sense we are still living with that old age mentality that if something cannot be proven, it must be an act of "God". Oh, what barbarians we humans still are. Still fighting like children and throwing sticks at each other! We are not as powerful and civilized as we humans think we are. Mother nature can still kick us in the *** and amaze us with the wonders of life. The human race should have a little more respect. Sometimes when I think of all the atrocities caused by human hands, I find myself almost ashamed to call myself "human".

Please don't take this personally in any way. This is only my generalization of the human race. There are those among us who have outgrown our "early human" roots and tendencies. I would almost rather be an ape though. At least apes don't selfishly and carelessly go about destroying life or nature, they merely exist as part of it. No care or need for such thing as a "God" or a gun. Now that's the "good" life. Someone pass me a banana. Oooh!! Ooohh!!

 

[Autodidact]

I've been saying all along that it's NOT objective evidence BECAUSE it can't be shared. So no, that doesn't bother me.

As for considering it proof FOR MYSELF, why should I disregard MY OWN perceptions?

Basically, Auto, I am almost certain that if I could somehow crawl inside your head and let you "see" what I "saw," even you would be forced to conclude that there is a God after all. However, I can't do that, and there's nothing else imx that inescapably leads to that conclusion. Or its opposite.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how persuasive it was, if you're the only one who saw it, then there's a strong possibility that it did not exist outside your head. This happens all the time. The only exception I can see is if whatever you saw predicted something that would happen in the future, you wrote it down, and then it happened. But of course, that would be objective evidence.

The other problem is that what do you do with all the other people who saw things just as surely as you, but the exact opposite? You can't all be right, and how do you decide who is?

 

[Storm]

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how persuasive it was, if you're the only one who saw it, then there's a strong possibility that it did not exist outside your head. This happens all the time.

Really? And how exactly did you calculate that possibility? I think it's just your bias showing.

The only exception I can see is if whatever you saw predicted something that would happen in the future, you wrote it down, and then it happened. But of course, that would be objective evidence.

Talk about moving the goalposts!

The other problem is that what do you do with all the other people who saw things just as surely as you, but the exact opposite? You can't all be right, and how do you decide who is?

I am unaware of any reports of such experiences.

 

[Runewolf1973]

When you really think about it, apes are such gentle, loving creatures. People think, "oh my god, I just could never imagine humans evolving from apes! That is just such a horrible thought!". That is our self-righteousness talking thinking we're oh so better than other animals. I tend to think we are not. Maybe back when human kind was first evolving, our ancestors got a little too "smart" for their own good so the rest of the "ape clan" literally kicked them out. Perhaps that's how humans evolved separately, we were outcasts. We got kicked out of the animal kingdom. Well aren't we special.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Really? And how exactly did you calculate that possibility? I think it's just your bias showing.

I think it's rather well documented that convincing and compelling hallucinations do exist. I don't see any reason to assume that's what you experienced, but from where I sit, I see no reason to exclude the possibility either.

I am unaware of any reports of such experiences.

You're unaware of reports of other compelling personal religious experiences? Really?

 

[Storm]

I think it's rather well documented that convincing and compelling hallucinations do exist. I don't see any reason to assume that's what you experienced, but from where I sit, I see no reason to exclude the possibility either.

I'll give you one, then. Are you familiar with the findings of neurotheology? They say that such experiences are entirely distinct from hallucination. Furthermore, my experience was not of the physical senses, which I believe halllucinations are.

You're unaware of reports of other compelling personal religious experiences? Really?

That are the exact opposite of mine, irreconcilably contradicting them? Yes, I am.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll give you one, then. Are you familiar with the findings of neurotheology? They say that such experiences are entirely distinct from hallucination.

Or, to look at it from another point of view, an entirely distinct form of hallucination.

Furthermore, my experience was not of the physical senses, which I believe halllucinations are.

Since you're privy to the details of what you experienced and I'm not, you have me at a disadvantage.

 

[Storm]

Or, to look at it from another point of view, an entirely distinct form of hallucination.

Moving the goalposts again.

Since you're privy to the details of what you experienced and I'm not, you have me at a disadvantage.

Well, I won't post it on this forum, due to language among other things. However, if you're really interested, pm me and I'll send you a link.

 

[Pagan Spiritualist]

I don't believe God exists, I know God exists... Hahaha, I laugh in my head when I see Christians writing this, and now I am..

I believe God is the universe. I know the universe exists... Or do I? Drat... Well, I hope it exists, so I hope God is real, to be technical... I hate defeating my own logic. :\

I'll simplify it. I believe God is the universe, so I believe God exists.

 

[Pagan Spiritualist]

I can't say that I believe in God as a divine supernatural man-like being. But I do believe in what could be called the "spirit". There is some energy or power all living things have which makes them "alive" which scientists haven't quite put a handle on yet. Until humans are able to re-animate, or "bring back the dead" this alone is scientific proof enough for me that such thing as the "spirit" exists. We are ALIVE are we not? I don't believe that this energy is in any way "supernatural". That is just a tag people put on things they can't explain. At one time diseases were thought to be "supernatural". In that sense we are still living with that old age mentality that if something cannot be proven, it must be an act of "God". Oh, what barbarians we humans still are. Still fighting like children and throwing sticks at each other! We are not as powerful and civilized as we humans think we are. Mother nature can still kick us in the *** and amaze us with the wonders of life. The human race should have a little more respect. Sometimes when I think of all the atrocities caused by human hands, I find myself almost ashamed to call myself "human".

Please don't take this personally in any way. This is only my generalization of the human race. There are those among us who have outgrown our "early human" roots and tendencies. I would almost rather be an ape though. At least apes don't selfishly and carelessly go about destroying life or nature, they merely exist as part of it. No care or need for such thing as a "God" or a gun. Now that's the "good" life. Someone pass me a banana. Oooh!! Ooohh!!

The energy or power which makes things alive is simple(well actually very complex) genetics and biology. We can't bring back the dead because we all have a set number of times our cells multiply in our genetics, that makes us all age and eventually die.

You should never be close to being ashamed of being human. You are not them, are you? You haven't done the bad things they have, right?

Apes do selfishly and carelessly destroy nature and life. They eat plant life, they fight for dominance, they kill each other, they kill other animals, they steal food from each other, or take it through brute force. You say, Someone pass you a banana? You will pass it to the more dominant ape that decides it wants it. That's selfishness, and the other ape wouldn't care how you felt. Apes do act selfishly and carelessly.

Apes have shot people at one point or another(honestly, they have humanish hands and the sense to figure out it makes holes in things), and some throw stones. That's their gun.

Fixed your sig: If all I could be was a tree, it would be good enough for me, until I got chopped up and put in a fire. :slap:

 

[Runewolf1973]

The energy or power which makes things alive is simple(well actually very complex) genetics and biology. We can't bring back the dead because we all have a set number of times our cells multiply in our genetics, that makes us all age and eventually die.

You should never be close to being ashamed of being human. You are not them, are you? You haven't done the bad things they have, right?

Apes do selfishly and carelessly destroy nature and life. They eat plant life, they fight for dominance, they kill each other, they kill other animals, they steal food from each other, or take it through brute force. You say, Someone pass you a banana? You will pass it to the more dominant ape that decides it wants it. That's selfishness, and the other ape wouldn't care how you felt. Apes do act selfishly and carelessly.

Apes have shot people at one point or another(honestly, they have humanish hands and the sense to figure out it makes holes in things), and some throw stones. That's their gun.

Fixed your sig: If all I could be was a tree, it would be good enough for me, until I got chopped up and put in a fire. :slap:

If I were a tree, I wouldn't be bothered if someone chopped me down to have fire or food or shelter to survive. It would be fullfilling a purpose for the greater good. Trees give freely of themselves their food, shelter, and protection. Humans in general are greedy. They can't handle just taking one tree, they gotta chop down the whole damn forest.

Do apes sometimes act selfishly or with controling force? Yes. It is natural for them to show their strength to survive and have a chance to reproduce. All animals show their dominance in some way or another as a natural survival instinct. Humans just go overboard with it. Humans are basically like the parasites of the planet, killing and destroying things and other creatures. Not all humans are like this, but many, if not the majority are. Some people are more concerned for the environment and other life forms, but a lot of others only care about how much money they will make from raping it and polluting it. Apes are just animals trying to survive in the wild. Humans know better. There is a difference.

 

[Pagan Spiritualist]

If I were a tree, I wouldn't be bothered if someone chopped me down to have fire or food or shelter to survive. It would be fullfilling a purpose for the greater good. Trees give freely of themselves their food, shelter, and protection. Humans in general are greedy. They can't handle just taking one tree, they gotta chop down the whole damn forest.

Do apes sometimes act selfishly or with controling force? Yes. It is natural for them to show their strength to survive and have a chance to reproduce. All animals show their dominance in some way or another as a natural survival instinct. Humans just go overboard with it. Humans are basically like the parasites of the planet, killing and destroying things and other creatures. Not all humans are like this, but many, if not the majority are. Some people are more concerned for the environment and other life forms, but a lot of others only care about how much money they will make from raping it and polluting it. Apes are just animals trying to survive in the wild. Humans know better. There is a difference.

Well, I'll start off by saying, Good point, some humans know better.

About the tree thing, if by fullfilling you mean horribly dreadful and disconcerning, yes it would be fullfilling. It wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be pleasant. Then again, tree probably have no concept of pleasure or pain, and no concept of fullfillment.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well, I'll start off by saying, Good point, some humans know better.

About the tree thing, if by fullfilling you mean horribly dreadful and disconcerning, yes it would be fullfilling. It wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't be pleasant. Then again, tree probably have no concept of pleasure or pain, and no concept of fullfillment.

Fullfilling a purpose is not always pleasant, but if it is for the greater good, then dying isn't necessarily a bad thing. Animals are killed in the wild so that others might eat and live. If all I could be was a tree, I could give everything that I had, even my own life for the sake of helping another life form to exist. Now that is the ultimate gift any thing or creature could possibly give. To sacrifice oneself for the greater good. Hmmm...sounds like something a well known person in the Bible would have done. And what do trees ask for in return?....Humans could learn something from trees.

 

[logician]

"
Pick one and give it a try."

Practically every religion can be disproven from a scientific basis, i.e. miracles can't happen, scientific laws can't be broken. Depends on what kind of proof you want.