Does God Have a Problem?

[Thief]

Thief,
I believe that God, even though being Almighty, and a Omniscient, does have a problem. You understand that God loves mankind so much that He allowed His beloved son to die as a Ransom Sacrifice for all who put the faith in him, does not want to destroy anyone, John 3:16, 2Peter 3:9.There are so many people living on earth that have no love for God or His son, so, in order to create a paradise earth, with perfect people living forever on it forever, God is going to be forced to destroy many, because we must all love God and Jesus more than anything, or we are not worthy of life, Matthew 22:35-40, Luke 14:26,27, 2Thessalonians 1:6-10. Agape!!!

I happen to believe ....the kingdom is not of this world

but I also believe the peace of heaven is guarded

It's not that God has a problem keeping the peace

It's us.....having a problem deciding how to get in

 

[LuisDantas]

hmmm......as if to say so.....to His Face?

What of it?

 

[idea]

Thief,
I believe that God, even though being Almighty, and a Omniscient, does have a problem. You understand that God loves mankind so much that He allowed His beloved son to die as a Ransom Sacrifice for all who put the faith in him, does not want to destroy anyone, John 3:16, 2Peter 3:9.There are so many people living on earth that have no love for God or His son, so, in order to create a paradise earth, with perfect people living forever on it forever, God is going to be forced to destroy many, because we must all love God and Jesus more than anything, or we are not worthy of life, Matthew 22:35-40, Luke 14:26,27, 2Thessalonians 1:6-10. Agape!!!

g-d loves mankind so much that He.... leaves billions in oppressive regimes, allows evil of unprecedented scope and nature, condemns His children to eternal torture after refusing to properly educate them, and kills and abandons His own son.... so... we are supposed to love a creature like this?

 

[Thief]

What of it?

well gee.....

if God be God
and the term Almighty actually fits.....

then speak your mind.....what of it
and His response might be what you expect

or are you thinking meeting the Almighty is unrealistic?

 

[Thief]

g-d loves mankind so much that He.... leaves billions in oppressive regimes, allows evil of unprecedented scope and nature, condemns His children to eternal torture after refusing to properly educate them, and kills and abandons His own son.... so... we are supposed to love a creature like this?

creature?.......not sure if that will work

I believe in hierarchy
we have as much here in this world
I suspect a more abundant and greater disciplined hierarchy in the next life

so.....picture your last hour and last breath
you stand from your dust
and God and heaven are there to have a look at you

I doubt the word....creature .....will be on your mind in that moment

and if it is.....does it apply to Him?....or to you?

what will you do?

run?

 

[Aldrnari]

Meh... My problem is that he reflects so little the nature that he created, and that we are expected to pick him over the other gods that much more closely resemble the natural world we live in (and, honestly, just make more sense in a practical way).

What is the point in that? What kind of test is it for people to only possibly be right if they happen to be born into a christian family (or to be exposed to a christian rich environment), and then everyone else be damned? If he is a god of ultimate good, then why did he feel the need to spread his religion through death and subjugation of everyone else? There isn't much about this god that seems to make a lot of sense to me, imo...

 

[Thief]

Meh... My problem is that he reflects so little the nature that he created, and that we are expected to pick him over the other gods that much more closely resemble the natural world we live in (and, honestly, just make more sense in a practical way).

What is the point in that? What kind of test is it for people to only possibly be right if they happen to be born into a christian family (or to be exposed to a christian rich environment), and then everyone else be damned? If he is a god of ultimate good, then why did he feel the need to spread his religion through death and subjugation of everyone else? There isn't much about this god that seems to make a lot of sense to me, imo...

God gave Man.....dominion

so you see difficulties here in this life?
and assume nothing is waiting for you after your last breath?

 

[Aldrnari]

God gave Man.....dominion

so you see difficulties here in this life?
and assume nothing is waiting for you after your last breath?

Did he? Did people have dominion when they were clothed in nakedness and wielding stone tools? They certainly weren't at the top of the food chain in those days. People earned their own dominion when they learned to master the natural world.

I do see difficulties in this life, as it should be. Humanity complicates it's own existence, and compounds that difficulty with arbitrary things, however. If my mom were to ever know that I wasn't a christian, and that I was destined for hell, then she would mourn for me now as though I were already dead and gone.

As for what I think happens when I die, it took a lot of deprogramming to get to the point where I no longer fear eternal torment. With serious intellectual honesty and questioning, though, there really is nothing left for me to fear. I can no longer believe in something that just makes such little sense.

Maybe there is an afterlife, though; I just don't think the god of Abraham is part of that equation.

 

[David1967]

God is going to be forced to destroy many

If He is truly God,(which I do believe), Then being all powerful, He cant be forced to do anything.

 

[LuisDantas]

Considering the importance that gods play in people's lives, why is the bar so low when we're talking about evidence for them?

Because god-beliefs were never meant to be convincing, let alone "true". They do not really exist in any true-falsehood axis. Rather, they are forms given to abstract concepts for purposes of communication and expression.

I can't count the number of times that I've seen a theist respond to an atheist with some version of "yeah? Well, you don't know that God doesn't exist!" ... as if not being able to completely reject the possibility that gods might exist somewhere in some form justifies them devoting their lives to their God.

I understand those situations to be an unskilled attempt at dealing with their rudimentary perception of their own confusion between symbolism and "truth".

There may be an alternative explanation, but it is eluding me right now.

And the typical arguments for gods don't do much better. Think of the classical arguments for God: cosmological arguments, teleological arguments, ontological arguments, etc.: even if you set aside their logical problems, if they actually did what they set out to do, all they'd be really saying, effectively, is something like "if you take this set of factors into account, then you should conclude that there's a god out there somewhere."

But theistic-based religion is more than just the intellectual acceptance of the idea that a god exists; it's often full-blown devotion of a person's life to the existence of a god or gods and ideas that flow from it (e.g. living your life the way your god(s) want you to live it, or giving up significant time and money for worship of the god(s) and support of his/her/its/their church/clergy/etc.).

For many theists, their devotion to their god is akin to the devotion of a marriage. I don't know about other people, but if someone asks me to show that my wife exists, I can show them all sorts of evidence: pictures, stories of things she did, eyewitnesses who have also seen her, etc... I could even produce her herself and you could hear her say personally that yes, she really is my wife.

What I wouldn't do if I was asked to prove that my wife exists is make arguments like "well, sometimes when I wake up, the cats have already been fed, so it stands to reason someone lives in my house with me." And even that argument for the existence of my wife meets a higher bar than what theists typically shoot for when they try to prove their gods.

Which is why I think of those attempts at "proving" their Gods inherently misguided. The Abrahamic-styled God, at the very least, is not at all a good fit for "proofs of existence".

So what gives? Based on the level of discourse that I see around gods, even if I granted every one of the theists' arguments for the existence of their god(s), I'd only be at "okay - I can intellectually assent to the idea that God is possible"... or maybe with a really good argument get to "God is probable." I certainly wouldn't be anywhere near "I accept with my heart and soul that God exists, and that this is how he wants me to live my life, and I should give up a year of my life to go on a mission trip to convince other people that he exists."

Why the disparity? If the existence of gods is really an open question - and the level of discourse that I see suggests it is - then how is devotion to a theistic religion ever justified?

It isn't. It can't even attempt to be. It was never meant to be, not as a function of how "truly existing" that God supposedly is. That was a serious misstep from some creeds - and ironically, that made them hugely popular, far more than they could hope to become had they been logically sound.

My thoughts in general the average populous has a low bar for facts. Its only scientists and only recently( a few thousand years) set the bar a little higher.

That, too. Troubled populations tend to develop an odd pride of being "better than facts", which is often enabled by the cheap variety of theism.

well gee.....

if God be God
and the term Almighty actually fits.....

then speak your mind.....what of it
and His response might be what you expect

or are you thinking meeting the Almighty is unrealistic?

Why, of course I do.

But that is immaterial to this hypothetical, in any case.

It is not my problem whether this God of yours has any expectations of what I might have to tell him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hey, God, I think many of the players have given up waiting and gone home.

I can understand why...

I think it's the others we are worrying about, and who seem to cause so many problems for the non-believers - like me.

Anytime... Most non-believers are so much more interesting than most believers...

 

[Thief]

It is not my problem whether this God of yours has any expectations of what I might have to tell him.

but maybe there is a Life Form Greater than yourself
and maybe He DOES have expectations

 

[Thief]

Did he? Did people have dominion when they were clothed in nakedness and wielding stone tools? They certainly weren't at the top of the food chain in those days. People earned their own dominion when they learned to master the natural world.

I do see difficulties in this life, as it should be. Humanity complicates it's own existence, and compounds that difficulty with arbitrary things, however. If my mom were to ever know that I wasn't a christian, and that I was destined for hell, then she would mourn for me now as though I were already dead and gone.

As for what I think happens when I die, it took a lot of deprogramming to get to the point where I no longer fear eternal torment. With serious intellectual honesty and questioning, though, there really is nothing left for me to fear. I can no longer believe in something that just makes such little sense.

Maybe there is an afterlife, though; I just don't think the god of Abraham is part of that equation.

I don't have a religion
I believe in God for....Cause and effect

I read Day Six of Genesis as......evolution
with the line....go forth, be fruitful and multiply
dominate all things
subdue the earth

that it took a lengthy time to gel.....does not reduce Genesis

 

[LuisDantas]

but maybe there is a Life Form Greater than yourself
and maybe He DOES have expectations

Everything is possible in the most technical sense, but I have only so much time and resources. There must be a choice of what to worry about.

I don't spend time allowing for the odds of having the right to the throne of Denmark either.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I can understand why...

Anytime... Most non-believers are so much more interesting than most believers...

Oh yes - and possibly because they have to work it all out for themselves without being told - if they have sufficient interest, that is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I say....how could He?

this thread takes a poke at the Almighty

post as if your words will stand before God and heaven
and the angels carry swords

It depends on which “Almighty” you’re talking about.

IMO, God is an expression of its believer’s ideas of goodness, perfection and virtue, so the problems with God are as varied as the problems with the people who believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh yes - and possibly because they have to work it all out for themselves without being told - if they have sufficient interest, that is.

Whereas that is true, not all religious people are told.... We Baha'is have to figure things out for ourselves, if we have sufficient interest, that is...

Free will, it's a bear...

 

[Mock Turtle]

Whereas that is true, not all religious people are told.... We Baha'is have to figure things out for ourselves, if we have sufficient interest, that is...

Free will, it's a bear...

You (we all) should stick to determinism - I hear it's all the rage these days.

 

[Thief]

Whereas that is true, not all religious people are told.... We Baha'is have to figure things out for ourselves, if we have sufficient interest, that is...

Free will, it's a bear...

don't tell @Wu Wei ......

ooops!

 

[Thief]

the only problem God could possibly have.....is us

picture the situation in the beginning
Someone had to be First

all that universe and only your Echo to talk to

so here we are
a blend between spirit and substance
turned loose to become whatever

and for lack of will.....
for lack of intent....
many of us fail in that last hour
we don't continue

and those of us with the will to live......
can't fit into the peace of heaven

the problem doesn't fall to God's feet

though that may be the last thing we do