Does God have Free Will?

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that enlightened people, are arrogant and judgemental? Maybe you can find those words in the definition of the word enlightened?

People can be enlightened and not be arrogant and judgmental, but those who think that they are enlightened are arrogant.

I do not judge what anyone claims they believe is true. That is not my business. But I will challenge what people claim that they know is true (truth claims). Maybe you would like to comment on Dr Francis J. Beckwith's master's thesis about Baha'i teachings and history. He is certainly not Islamic or Muslim. In fact this information is from your own library online. Truth Triumphs . Here is just an excerpt;

"Dr. Beckwith also quoted Vernon E. Johnson's characterization of the Bahá'í focus on the Manifestation of God: "The Bahá'í faith, indeed, is a religion which centers in devotion to a person believed to be God's manifestation for the modern age; it demands unreserved acceptance of his person as God's latest revelation to the world and requires absolute submission to his every word and command." (pp. 5-6) Bahá'u'lláh's teaching is cited by Shoghi Effendi: "The door of the Ancient of Days [God] being thus closed in the face of all beings, He, the Source of infinite grace...hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit...All the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exceptions, the bearers of His names and the embodiments of His attributes..." (WOB, pp. 113-114)". Any comments?

I will explain what that means to me. Baha’is are not devoted to Baha’u’llah, we are devoted to God. We do not worship Baha’u’llah, we worship God.

The Baha’i Faith does not demand anything. If we believe that Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this age and a Representative of God, then certain things follow from that belief. Because we believe that we realize that it is in our best interest to follow the teachings and laws that Baha’u’llah set forth, so we want to do so, willingly, and we demand that of ourselves.

It is always best to go to the original source rather than someone’s interpretation of what that might mean, so here is the original source.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples. He that turneth away from them, is accounted among the abject and foolish. We, verily, have commanded you to refuse the dictates of your evil passions and corrupt desires, and not to transgress the bounds which the Pen of the Most High hath fixed, for these are the breath of life unto all created things. The seas of Divine wisdom and divine utterance have risen under the breath of the breeze of the All-Merciful. Hasten to drink your fill, O men of understanding! They that have violated the Covenant of God by breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331​

These duties are called The Twin Duties.

Everything Baha’is believe hinges upon one thing, that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God who spoke for God. If He was then everything He wrote is the truth from God. If God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, why would anyone question Him? They would have to be a complete fool.

Let me say one more thing. Psychology is my field so I analyze how people relate to religion. In the older religions not as much was expected of people as is expected of the Baha’is because the people back in those days were not spiritually mature enough to follow the teachings and laws. Humanity is now potentially capable of following these teachings and laws; otherwise God would not have revealed them. Clearly, a higher standard of moral behavior is expected of Baha’is than is expected of adherents to the older religions.

The fact that we have to OBEY the teachings and laws the way we are asked to do so by Baha’u’llah makes some people very uncomfortable; so some people rebel and some people try to trash the religion because it asks them to do what they would not want to do if they believed in the religion. Take for example the law about sexuality. The Baha’i Law that any kind of sex is only allowed between a man and wife. Most people don’t like that law that Baha’u’llah set forth because it restricts their freedom. The bottom line is that most people are selfish and they are not going to put the law of God above their own desires, so they will not even admit that it might be for their own good.

“All the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exceptions, the bearers of His names and the embodiments of His attributes..."

Do you have an issue with that or any questions about it?

I won't bother showing you the same obvious concerns from non-islamic sites, because you will paint them all with the same brush. It's also easy to accuse others of being wrong, when you don't have to prove why they're wrong. Ignorance is truly bliss, especially when someone else does all the thinking for you. The Bahai Truth – All That They Didn't Tell You About the Faith

https://thebahaitruth.com/That website is down so I could not read on it. But why do you assume that those who attack the Baha’i Faith know more about it than the Baha’is know about their own religion? Nobody is covering anything up. Nobody has to tell us anything because we are free to read for ourselves. This conspiracy theory is utterly ridiculous, but the detractors don’t have any legitimate complaints about the Baha’i Faith do that is one thing they use. The history is the other thing they try to use. They take a few facts and distort them hoping unsuspecting readers won’t notice. Of course those who want to believe that the Baha’i Faith is false only confirm their own biases.

Keep in mind that this also applies to you: “It's also easy to accuse others of being wrong, when you don't have to prove why they're wrong.” So go ahead, prove why the Baha’is are wrong about their religion.

Keep in mind that this also applies to you: “Ignorance is truly bliss, especially when someone else does all the thinking for you.” Why not think for yourself instead of letting others think for you?

It does not require a degree in psychology to figure out what those who attack the Baha’i Faith are up to. It only takes common sense. The reasons why so many people attack us and not other religions is because the Baha'i Faith is so great and as such it is a threat to them.

“And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it! ....
But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, p. 106​

These detractors are just grasping at straws because no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God. These detractors are also so stupid that they do not even realize that they are helping the Baha’is spread the Faith since any true seeker is going to check out their lies, and alas, they discover the truth.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103​

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I did not say that Christianity was because Jesus was a Christian. Jesus was not a Christian, He was a Jew. I did not say that the Baha'i Faith was because the Baha'u'llah was a Muslim.

I said that Christianity is based upon the teachings of Jesus and the Baha'i Faith is based upon the Revelation of Baha'u’llah.

No, I did not leave that out. I said “The truth comes from the Baha'i Faith sources but some other sites also post the truth.”

The facts surrounding the history of the Baha’i Faith are accurately represented in the following books.

The history of the Baha’i Faith began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab and it continues to this day. The two authoritative texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944).

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4 covers the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

Obviously, those who oppose the Baha’i Faith will dispute what is written because if it is true that means they are wrong and what they are presenting is false.

Motives are not irrelevant. They are very relevant because people can lie and misrepresent the truth. Even if what they present is partly true and based upon actual history, they can twist it to make the Baha’i Faith look bad. All they have to do is lie about one part of it. That is what the detractors do.

No, I do not have to BE GOD to know about God because God sent Messengers to reveal information about Himself.

I do not need to know the nature of God in order to know the Attributes of God or the Will of God. The nature of God is a mystery and God does not reveal it to us because it is beyond our comprehension and because we do not need to know it in order to believe in God and follow His teachings and laws.

God wants us to have free will and using our free will God wants us to CHOOSE to obey His commandments, because that is in our best interest to do so.

God wants us to believe or know that He exists. Some believers believe, others know. It depends upon their level of certitude.

I know God’s Will because it was revealed by Baha’u’llah. The Will of God is identical to the Will of God.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

What does it say and why does it say it? Why is there a problem with either one of these beliefs?

You said, "Christianity grew out of Judaism because Jesus was a Jew, but Christianity is based upon the teachings of Jesus. The Baha'i Faith grew out of Islam because Baha'ullah was a Muslim, but the Bahai Faith is based upon the Revelation of Baha'ullah. I said "Christianity came from Judaism, similar to the fact that the Baha'i faith came from Islam". Where do I state that the teachings of these prophets were NOT the bases for their religions? My statement had nothing to do with why or how Christianity, and the Baha'i faith evolved. It was a truth claim about the origin of both faiths, which you agreed with. Although your explanation was far too simplistic. So go ahead and argue with your own straw man.

Still hiding behind your need for a self-serving motive, as another excuse to editorialize and protect your belief. To most rational people it is not about where the evidence comes from that matters, it is only about the nature of the evidence itself. So far like most of your members, you avoid addressing any of these concerns. You, like most cultist, will simply dismiss them with self-serving conspiracy theories. Or deflect by stating an obvious motive, not if the motive is true or not. By doing so, you avoid having to demonstrate WHY the claims are false. Referring others to approved and allowed sites, is not how rational people look for the impartial truth. True knowledge comes from the convergences of truths, not from selected truths. The truth is never threatened, only the lies. Hence the use of fallacies.

Yes you DO have to be a God to know anything for certain about any aspects of a God. Everything out of your mouth comes from the use of circular reasoning. God exists because the Messenger says so. And the Messenger exists because God sent him. This conformational bias only gets worst. The Messenger must be real, because of how he lived, died, suffered, and what he wrote(sounds familiar?). You know God's Will because it is written in a Book. And, it was written by a Messenger of God. You know God's nature because of the human attributes you gave Him, and because the Messenger wrote them down in his book.The problem with your cognitive constructed house of cards, is that it works on the all-or-none principle. You must believe all of it, or none of it. If one thing is wrong, then all of it is wrong, and the entire house of cards falls. Science doesn't work that way.

Motives are not irrelevant. They are very relevant because people can lie and misrepresent the truth. Even if what they present is partly true and based upon actual history, they can twist it to make the Baha’i Faith look bad. All they have to do is lie about one part of it. That is what the detractors do.

Because people can lie, doesn't mean that they are lying(inferring only). This says it all, and demonstrates clearly what happens when you close your eyes and cover your ears. True cultist fundamentalism. All challenges are to be treated as a hostile threat. Maintain elitism and separatism, at all cost. Follow certain externally imposed rules without question, because they are for your benefit only(really?). Humans are capable of anything, and believing in anything. This is a flaw in the human condition, and the brain's ability to compartmentalize information. Even if God himself tells you that the both of you are idiots, you would still be cognitively incapable of changing your minds. So no, the use of logic and objective evidence is not an issue in this discussion.

Lets see where we are. No evidence to address any of the clear factual concerns, raised by rational people about the rules, history, and practices of the Baha'i faith(just told to re-read the entire history again from an approved source). No evidence to support the existence of a God, or a Messenger(just told it is a feeling). No evidence to address the nature of a God(Good or Evil), other than it is written in a book. No evidence to suggest why a God would need a middle man to speak for Him. Probable just a clever way to circumvent the separation between man and God. And, there is no evidence to disprove that the Baha'i faith is only a collage of aspects of many other beliefs, to make it appear more current.

As I've stated before, what makes you feel good is totally your business. What you claim is true is only your mental conception of the truth. This is reinforced by external manipulation, rules and rituals, herding instinct, social constructivism, and positive reinforcement loops. With objective evidence, and critical thinking, you can become more introspective and objective. This is called "the rape of the mind". We are adult human beings, not children. Just because adults believe in something extraordinary, doesn't make it true or rational.

Anyway, that was my two cents.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Actually no, but you can wear the tag arrogantly like an anchor.

Still parroting on auto-mode I see. Even when faced with clear objective evidence that you are wrong, the dissonance begins to take over. Therefore, you can logically call my anchor arrogance or being judgemental, but not enlightened. This was clearly shown by the definition of the word enlightenment, that you seem to have ignored. What would cause anyone to ignore such overwhelming evidence that they are wrong? Maybe they are taught to exploit any perceived weaknesses or sensitivities, whenever they are cornered. But if it gives you some weird sense of ego-gratification, I will wear the TRUE meaning of the tag "truly enlightened" as my anchor. Thank you.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

People can be enlightened and not be arrogant and judgmental, but those who think that they are enlightened are arrogant.


I will explain what that means to me. Baha’is are not devoted to Baha’u’llah, we are devoted to God. We do not worship Baha’u’llah, we worship God.

The Baha’i Faith does not demand anything. If we believe that Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this age and a Representative of God, then certain things follow from that belief. Because we believe that we realize that it is in our best interest to follow the teachings and laws that Baha’u’llah set forth, so we want to do so, willingly, and we demand that of ourselves.

It is always best to go to the original source rather than someone’s interpretation of what that might mean, so here is the original source.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the world and the security of its peoples. He that turneth away from them, is accounted among the abject and foolish. We, verily, have commanded you to refuse the dictates of your evil passions and corrupt desires, and not to transgress the bounds which the Pen of the Most High hath fixed, for these are the breath of life unto all created things. The seas of Divine wisdom and divine utterance have risen under the breath of the breeze of the All-Merciful. Hasten to drink your fill, O men of understanding! They that have violated the Covenant of God by breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331​

These duties are called The Twin Duties.

Everything Baha’is believe hinges upon one thing, that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God who spoke for God. If He was then everything He wrote is the truth from God. If God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, why would anyone question Him? They would have to be a complete fool.

Let me say one more thing. Psychology is my field so I analyze how people relate to religion. In the older religions not as much was expected of people as is expected of the Baha’is because the people back in those days were not spiritually mature enough to follow the teachings and laws. Humanity is now potentially capable of following these teachings and laws; otherwise God would not have revealed them. Clearly, a higher standard of moral behavior is expected of Baha’is than is expected of adherents to the older religions.

The fact that we have to OBEY the teachings and laws the way we are asked to do so by Baha’u’llah makes some people very uncomfortable; so some people rebel and some people try to trash the religion because it asks them to do what they would not want to do if they believed in the religion. Take for example the law about sexuality. The Baha’i Law that any kind of sex is only allowed between a man and wife. Most people don’t like that law that Baha’u’llah set forth because it restricts their freedom. The bottom line is that most people are selfish and they are not going to put the law of God above their own desires, so they will not even admit that it might be for their own good.

“All the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exceptions, the bearers of His names and the embodiments of His attributes..."

Do you have an issue with that or any questions about it?
That website is down so I could not read on it. But why do you assume that those who attack the Baha’i Faith know more about it than the Baha’is know about their own religion? Nobody is covering anything up. Nobody has to tell us anything because we are free to read for ourselves. This conspiracy theory is utterly ridiculous, but the detractors don’t have any legitimate complaints about the Baha’i Faith do that is one thing they use. The history is the other thing they try to use. They take a few facts and distort them hoping unsuspecting readers won’t notice. Of course those who want to believe that the Baha’i Faith is false only confirm their own biases.

Keep in mind that this also applies to you: “It's also easy to accuse others of being wrong, when you don't have to prove why they're wrong.” So go ahead, prove why the Baha’is are wrong about their religion.

Keep in mind that this also applies to you: “Ignorance is truly bliss, especially when someone else does all the thinking for you.” Why not think for yourself instead of letting others think for you?

It does not require a degree in psychology to figure out what those who attack the Baha’i Faith are up to. It only takes common sense. The reasons why so many people attack us and not other religions is because the Baha'i Faith is so great and as such it is a threat to them.

“And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it! ....
But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, p. 106​

These detractors are just grasping at straws because no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God. These detractors are also so stupid that they do not even realize that they are helping the Baha’is spread the Faith since any true seeker is going to check out their lies, and alas, they discover the truth.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103​

What makes you think that I think I am enlightened? And, how do you know that those that think they are, are arrogant? Is this just more of your silly made up logic, that you just don't know how you know, but know you know? Maybe you can find where arrogance is part of the description of enlightened? Enlightenment is a metaphysical term, which has no relevance to me at all. But seems to be infinitely relevant to you. Why is that?

I can see that you are again changing the goal posts, misrepresenting, deflecting, and littering this thread with more of your unprovable, unprovable, unknowable, and unfalsifiable claims. I'm not going to go through that nonsense of chasing the rabbit from one hole to another, while you avoid directly answering anything I ask. You've answered nothing so far, and you never will. You simply respond with more fact-less rhetoric, until people simply give up wasting their time. Similar to trying to convince someone that he is not the real Napoleon. Especially since he too has convinced himself he is the real Napoleon. I believe that people believe only what they want to believe is true. The unfalsifiable world of the supernatural and the spiritual, is the perfect haunt for all their pseudo-sophistries. Not in the falsifiable world. Some people are more vulnerable to religious persuasion, and some are less vulnerable. In the end, it won't make one bit of difference. Based on the overwhelming clear and objective evidence, belief does not equivocate to life after death, and reality will still go bye-bye forever. Anything else, is simply hope and self-serving contrived logic.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I told you how I know. I said: “it is an inner sense of knowing, but it is based upon the evidence. That is how I know.”

Because I am not going to admit what is not true, since I am not a liar. It is not a belief that makes me feel good, it is a belief I have based upon the evidence.

You are free to believe I am wrong and I am free to believe I am right since we both have free will. I am not trying to convince you that I am right because that is not a job I have been given to do by Baha’u’llah. I just state what I believe. I have no interest in convincing anyone of what I believe.

I know that God does not need anything from anyone because Baha’u’llah wrote that God is self-sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136​

No, I do not think that people would willingly choose eternal suffering over joy, whether they are dead or alive. However, that is essentially what they are doing when they choose to reject Baha’u’llah and what He wrote. The fact that they are not aware they are doing that is irrelevant.

Motives are always relevant because motives are what cause people to act by virtue of their will. No, the purpose is not to control and make obedience.

The will of the people is not the SAME as the Will of God.

The Word of God once recorded is not subject to change by human beings. Anyone who knows anything about the Tanakh and the Bible and the Qur’an knows that once scriptures are recorded they cannot be changed by humans.

There is no such thing as approved literature of the Baha’i Faith. People can read whatever they want about the Baha’i Faith. We do not believe in censorship.

What we have are “authoritative writings” of the Baha’i Faith because they are ORIGINAL WRITINGS from the Founders of the Baha’i Faith.

No, you are not at all prepared. You are a little ahead of the game only because of what I have told you about the Baha’i Faith but since you reject it and do not believe or follow it you are not prepared.

All I can say is that you will find out in due time that you were wrong. Anything else I say could get me in trouble on this forum so I am not going to say it. Before I responded to any of your posts yesterday, I had already planned to post a new thread about the afterlife (the Second Death) so you can read what I have to say there if you are interested.

I have plenty of evidence of the spiritual world, and not just from religious scriptures. It is not just me who believes in an afterlife. MOST people in the world believe in an afterlife. Only the 7% of atheists in the world do not believe in an afterlife, but they are wrong, and they will find out eventually because we all die physically.

Of course I do not have objective evidence of God or an afterlife because those are not subject to objective evidence since they do not exist in the material realm. Only an idiot would ask for objective evidence of that which is immaterial. But just because we cannot SEE or PROVE what we cannot see objectively, that does not mean it does not exist. The spiritual realm is another realm but there are those who can communicate with people in it and that is one proof that it exists. The spiritual world is the real world; this material world is just a shadow stretching out. Thos world is very temporary; the afterlife is our permanent existence. As such, it seems like a complete waste of time to focus on this world, except to do what we have to do and prepare for the afterlife.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

This world is not the true reality so your reality must change in order for you to know what reality is. I already know.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329​

“Ere long the world and all that is therein shall be as a thing forgotten, and all honor shall belong to the loved ones of thy Lord, the All-Glorious, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 306​

It is truly a mystery how someone can claim that their inner sense of knowing is based on "the evidence", but at best can only site passages from a book written by a man. How could someone admit the lack of OBJECTIVE evidence, and still maintain that their sense of knowing is valid. The rest of this rhetorical verbiage, is filled with definitions, quote-mining, after-life threats, avoidance, misrepresentations, and one fallacy after another. Again the point is to force people to give up, and also allow for more editorializing for the faith. Since this is not a thread about your faith, lets move onto the topic of this thread?

You are certainly right about one thing. Only an idiot would NOT expect objective evidence to support any extraordinary claims. Oh, sorry, that's not what you said, is it? If you are truly not here to convince anyone of the nature of your faith, or the total lack of evidence supporting your faith, then you have succeeded. Well down.

 

[shunyadragon]

Still parroting on auto-mode I see. Even when faced with clear objective evidence that you are wrong, the dissonance begins to take over. Therefore, you can logically call my anchor arrogance or being judgemental, but not enlightened. This was clearly shown by the definition of the word enlightenment, that you seem to have ignored. What would cause anyone to ignore such overwhelming evidence that they are wrong? Maybe they are taught to exploit any perceived weaknesses or sensitivities, whenever they are cornered. But if it gives you some weird sense of ego-gratification, I will wear the TRUE meaning of the tag "truly enlightened" as my anchor. Thank you.

Auto-mode on big time. There is no objective verifiable evidence for your claims nor mine, As long as you keep parroting Islamic websites hostile to the Baha'i Faith, and selective quotes out of context to justify your agenda continue with your rants.

Oh high and mighty Truly Enlightened One! The only True Enlightened One, and ONLY ONE!.

Wear it like an anchor!

 

[Thief]

I got to the question.

Cannot say yes or no concerning God, because you are asking me to draw lines for God's nature.

Clarification: I believe God exists and may have a 'Will' but describing that from the human perspective as 'Free Will or not' to me is a contradiction as to the nature of God, which cannot be described from the human perspective.

I got to the question.

Cannot say yes or no concerning God, because you are asking me to draw lines for God's nature.

Clarification: I believe God exists and may have a 'Will' but describing that from the human perspective as 'Free Will or not' to me is a contradiction as to the nature of God, which cannot be described from the human perspective.

we were made to drawn lines

and yes we can draw lines
we do it all the time
it's called......debate

and reality has rules.....lines drawn by God
break some....if you can

then we can debate who is Greater

 

[shunyadragon]

we were made to drawn lines,

and yes we can draw lines

Sure we can, but they are lines drawn by fallible humans, and only represent a human view of God.

we do it all the time
it's called......debate.

Debate in and of itself does not draw lines, and in is simply a dialogue of different points of view and perspectives.

and reality has rules.....lines drawn by God
break some....if you can.

Yes, but fallible human cannot determine what the rules and lines are drawn by God. All we can do objectively is describe the human view of the laws of nature, which were ultimately determined by God.

then we can debate who is Greater

No debate here, God is greater, and fallible humans cannot draw the lines to define God.

 

[siti]

The bold above is the easiest to answer. Simply the Baha'i Reveleation acknowledges and is based on the universal. Many of the teachings and principles of the Baha'i Faith are simply totally absent totally absent in the more ancient religions.

The basic principles of the Baha'i Faith are a beginning.

From: Bahá'í Faith Principles

• The oneness of mankind.

• Universal peace upheld by a world government.

• Independent investigation of truth.

• The common foundation of all religions.

• The essential harmony of science and religion.

• Equality of men and women.

• Elimination of prejudice of all kinds.

• Universal compulsory education.

• A spiritual solution to the economic problem.

• A universal auxiliary language.

The older religions have a strong cultural tribal nature and the Baha'i Faith does not.

When dealing with the evolving changing nature of science, the more ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are divided and have no specific scripture guidance to unify their view toward
science. The Baha'i Faith specifically acknowledges that the evolving nature of science is the guidance of understanding the nature of our physical existence. ALL scripture and the Baha'i writings must be understood and interpreted concerning the nature of our physical existence based on science.

The role of the Baha'i writings is to provide the guidance to the application of science for the benefit of humanity.

I get that the Baha'i religion is newer than the ancient religions it sprang from - that's a trivial fact. It makes sense that the Baha'i writings would be more "in tune" with relatively modern socio-cultural "norms"...but not a single one of these ideas was actually new when Baha'u'llah / Abdu'l Baha wrote about them. I have compared what they wrote about all these subjects to the writings of radical 18th and early 19th century writers such as Thomas Jefferson, John Thelwall and Robert Owen in a previous thread. The key point is that these ideas are gleaned from the already well-established (by Baha'u'llah's time) "enlightenment" notions of free-thought and humanistic values. Baha'u'llah really just set them back in a religious setting - although in truth, Robert Owen had certainly attempted that much earlier and even earlier still, the Quakers had many of these principles enshrined in their religion. It is remarkable that a 19th century Persian nobleman would have subscribed to such (philosophically and socio-culturally) liberal ideas - but there have always been extraordinary humans who have dared to go against the tide of popular opinion. No need invoke miraculous revelation to explain the origin of ideas that already existed in the minds of humans a hundred years earlier. Anyway, if you are interested here are the links:

How are these Great Beings explained?

How are these Great Beings explained?

How are these Great Beings explained?

 

[Trailblazer]

Still hiding behind your need for a self-serving motive, as another excuse to editorialize and protect your belief. To most rational people it is not about where the evidence comes from that matters, it is only about the nature of the evidence itself

Where the evidence comes from determines whether the evidence is accurate or inaccurate evidence. Tainted evidence is not evidence at all. Ever see a crime drama where the evidence is tainted?

Rational people look at where the evidence comes from because that determines if it is tainted.

So far like most of your members, you avoid addressing any of these concerns. You, like most cultist, will simply dismiss them with self-serving conspiracy theories.

I did address them. I told you I dismiss them because they are lies. I do not have to prove to you why they are lies. That is not my job. If you knew the truth then you would know why they are lies.

Or deflect by stating an obvious motive, not if the motive is true or not. By doing so, you avoid having to demonstrate WHY the claims are false.

They are false because they are false. I know they are false because I know the truth. I do not have to demonstrate that to you. The motives are obvious and they explain why the false information is presented.

Referring others to approved and allowed sites, is not how rational people look for the impartial truth. True knowledge comes from the convergences of truths, not from selected truths. The truth is never threatened, only the lies.

Give it up for lost. Knowledge about God comes from God through Manifestations of God, who were selected by God. It does not converge with truth revealed by humans.

The Truth from God is not threatened. Only the lies of humans who distort that Truth is threatened.

Yes you DO have to be a God to know anything for certain about any aspects of a God. Everything out of your mouth comes from the use of circular reasoning.

Knowledge about God comes from God through Manifestations of God. I cannot be God, nobody can be God except God, Lol.

God exists because the Messenger says so. And the Messenger exists because God sent him.

No, God exists because God exists, not because the Messenger says so. The Messenger exists because His body was born on earth but His Spirit came from the heaven of the Will of God and His message came from God.

If one thing is wrong, then all of it is wrong, and the entire house of cards falls. Science doesn't work that way.

If one thing is right, then all of it is right, and the entire house of cards stands. Religion works that way.

Because people can lie, doesn't mean that they are lying (inferring only). This says it all, and demonstrates clearly what happens when you close your eyes and cover your ears.

Of course not all people lie, but some do. I do not close my eyes or cover my ears. I know what lies are because I know what the truth is.

Lets see where we are. No evidence to address any of the clear factual concerns, raised by rational people about the rules, history, and practices of the Baha'i faith (just told to re-read the entire history again from an approved source). No evidence to support the existence of a God, or a Messenger (just told it is a feeling). No evidence to address the nature of a God (Good or Evil), other than it is written in a book. No evidence to suggest why a God would need a middle man to speak for Him. Probable just a clever way to circumvent the separation between man and God. And, there is no evidence to disprove that the Baha'i faith is only a collage of aspects of many other beliefs, to make it appear more current.

The evidence is all there for you to read. All those things are explained in the Writings of the Baha’i Faith. It is not my job to read it and interpret them for anyone except myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

What makes you think that I think I am enlightened?

When or where did I ever say that?

I said: “People can be enlightened and not be arrogant and judgmental, but those who think that they are enlightened are arrogant.” I was not referring to YOU.

And, how do you know that those that think they are, are arrogant?

People who think they are enlightened have an exaggerated sense of their importance or abilities.

Arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
https://www.google.com/search

I can see that you are again changing the goal posts, misrepresenting, deflecting, and littering this thread with more of your unprovable, unprovable, unknowable, and unfalsifiable claims. I'm not going to go through that nonsense of chasing the rabbit from one hole to another, while you avoid directly answering anything I ask.

I have answered everything you have asked directly. You just do not like my answers.

I am not going to go down this rabbit hole again; your insults, blaming, derisiveness, and criticism. All you know how to do is criticize others but you cannot see that you have any faults at all... It is always somebody else that is wrong or to blame. I have been down this road with other atheists but never this bad and never on this forum.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

44: O COMPANION OF MY THRONE! Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep. Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed. Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom for evermore.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh​

You've answered nothing so far, and you never will.

I have answered every question you ever asked. You just did not “like” my answers. I have spent hours answering your posts, but I am done now. I have many other people to respond to who treat me with dignity and respect. I will no longer converse with people who are rude and disrespectful. It was my mistake to even respond to you again after what has happened in the past. I knew better. But it is over now, thank God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you are truly not here to convince anyone of the nature of your faith, or the total lack of evidence supporting your faith, then you have succeeded.

I am absolutely not here to convince anyone of anything.

 

[shunyadragon]

I get that the Baha'i religion is newer than the ancient religions it sprang from - that's a trivial fact. It makes sense that the Baha'i writings would be more "in tune" with relatively modern socio-cultural "norms"...but not a single one of these ideas was actually new when Baha'u'llah / Abdu'l Baha wrote about them. I have compared what they wrote about all these subjects to the writings of radical 18th and early 19th century writers such as Thomas Jefferson, John Thelwall and Robert Owen in a previous thread. The key point is that these ideas are gleaned from the already well-established (by Baha'u'llah's time) "enlightenment" notions of free-thought and humanistic values. Baha'u'llah really just set them back in a religious setting - although in truth, Robert Owen had certainly attempted that much earlier and even earlier still, the Quakers had many of these principles enshrined in their religion. It is remarkable that a 19th century Persian nobleman would have subscribed to such (philosophically and socio-culturally) liberal ideas - but there have always been extraordinary humans who have dared to go against the tide of popular opinion. No need invoke miraculous revelation to explain the origin of ideas that already existed in the minds of humans a hundred years earlier. Anyway, if you are interested here are the links:

How are these Great Beings explained?

How are these Great Beings explained?

How are these Great Beings explained?

I consider the concept ot the Harmony of Science and Religion is unique among the existing religions, and you have not refuted that. PLEASE RESPOND with specifics.if another religion promoted this principle.

The Baha'i Faith was the firdt to mandate that all children, girls and boys receive education..

Your strong bias determines your agenda. and filled with vague generalities.

 

[Thief]

fallible humans cannot draw the lines to define God.

then you do not know God.....or how to deal with Him

your resistance to draw a line.....here.....and there....
will back fire

 

[shunyadragon]

then you do not know God.....or how to deal with Him.

I do not know, I believe in God, not Him (?)

your resistance to draw a line.....here.....and there....
will back fire

That is up to God not you. Humans are not to create God(s) in their own image.

I draw a lot of lines and at times sell my art work.

 

[Thief]

Humans are not to create God(s) in their own image.

and it is written.....He created Man in His image

that in itself is a line drawn

and when you look in the mirror.....you do not see any of His reflection?

I think you are losing this debate

 

[shunyadragon]

and it is written.....He created Man in His image.

. . . but it is not written that humans drew lines and created God's image.

that in itself is a line drawn/

By God not humans.

and when you look in the mirror.....you do not see any of His reflection?

I see a human being.

I think you are losing this debate

I can see you believe Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.

 

[Thief]

. . . but it is not written that humans drew lines and created God's image.


By God not humans.


I see a human being.



I can see you believe Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.

yes .....you are losing this debate

 

[shunyadragon]

yes ....

. . . you believe Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.

.you are losing this debate

No, in your egocentric view everyone that does not agree with you loses the debate.

 

[Thief]

. . . you believe Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.



No, in your egocentric view everyone that does not agree with you loses the debate.

nay

to win a debate.....get off the fence

draw a line

God has freewill
He is simply hampered by the lines He drew

and yours
(and yes....you did draw a line....
and you are attempting to support it
it's just so badly drawn)