waitasec
Veteran Member
why would you automatically assume god is good?
the opposite is said in scripture though...
our hearts are inclined towards evil...gen 8:21
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Does god make a good parent?
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
why would you automatically assume god is good?
the opposite is said in scripture though...
our hearts are inclined towards evil...gen 8:21
waitasec
Veteran Member
and of course...that's what counts
:yes:
In Genesis 8:21 I think God is speaking of a very specific time when Man was acting evil.
How about Gen. 1:31?
waitasec
Veteran Member
gen 8:21
this passage says...
never again will i destroy mankind again even though...
which doesn't specify a specific time but rather says...even though . and besides this is post flood
genesis 1:31 is pre fall...
we can parse it anyway we want. bottom line: we have differing beliefs.
waitasec
Veteran Member
that has always been the case...which is why we are debating
so what exactly is your point?
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
People tend to focus on the wrathful characteristics of God, described in the Old Testament, ignorning the more sensitive, loving attritubes of God, as described in the New Testament of the bible - a God who sacrified Himself so that His children could be reconciled to Him - a God that lived amongst His children to guide them, teach them and show them precisely how they were to live so that they could get it right and they wouldn't fail.
Of course not. But again, I think people focus so much on certain attributes of God, they ignore those attritubes that attract Christians to the faith in the first place. Why the hell would anyone waste their time loving such a hateful "Father"? I'm not an idiot and am not a glutton for punishment and abuse, I assure you.
As a parent, my love is unconditional as well. And I would never set my child up for failure either. I provide a loving, nurturing environment and guidance. I also have to lovingly chastise children when they're in the wrong so that they learn important life lessons. The holy spirit works in my life in a similar way. That certainly doesn't include torture, death, etc. The holy spirit guides me and I identify through various lessions in life, I'm strengthened. It's not unlike the way I work with my own children - only it's a spiritual relationship.
And if you believe that way, you can say to hell with it and not worry about it at all. But there are folks that find value in that parent/child relationship with God. And they aren't necessarily whack jobs.
Hasn't failed me. And just like my kids. I have the option to obey or disobey. Ultimately, I will decide the type of person that I become.
I'm here for my kids as a loving Mom to provide and to love and to correct them when correction is needed.
God is here for me in much the same way, on a spiritual level. But, if I choose not to value those lessons...I can do so.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
as a parent, i don't understand the reconciliation part. i honestly don't.
i'm questioning the entire premise of reconciliation.
well what do you suppose i have, if it isn't the holy spirit...would it be fair to call that intuition?
i'm not sure i understand what you mean...
i don't think it's about an option..it's more like an ultimatum.
which is at the core of what i'm trying to understand...
does god have faith in you to be the best person you can be?
as a parent would with their own child?
if he did, then why the need for reconciliation?
why does a belief in god automatically mean one values the lessons in life more than an unbeliever?
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I don't fully understand it myself.
Man was separated from God as a result of sin. Therefore, we must be reconciled.
And you can't fully compare a human parent/child relationship to that of God and child. It's comparable but not the same because the interaction isn't the same.
I don't know. My intuition isn't one and the same with my interaction with the holy spirit. As my conscience isn't one and the same with my interaction with the holy spirit. Very distinct.
I quite like when non believers question God. I like discussion. But, sometimes, and I don't direct this at you, I notice that people get bent out of shape over God, when they claim not to believe in God. And my mindset is...to hell with it.
Not that I discount good discussion and the pursuit to learn from others. It's just...got a beef with God? Let it go.
I strongly disagree. As a believer, I'm not hog tied to do anything. Everything is by free will and choice. God is a choice. My life is mine.
Of course God has faith in me but in order to have any sort of relationship with God, I have to believe in Him. I don't understand people's expectations of God, sometimes. People basically tell God to eff off everyday and then blame Him for all of the problems in the world. (Again, I'm not insinuating that you're saying such things...I'm going against my own values and doing a bit of blanket labeling, here.
)As with any relationship...it requires a bit of effort on your part. He has faith in and love for all of us but He requires that we believe in Him, trust Him and listen to Him.
It's not an unrealistic expectation. That doesn't mean that He isn't behind the scenes working in our favor. We simply choose not to commune with Him and tap into a fruitful partnership that can be had.
Sin. We're no longer perfect because we sin. Before we can go back to Daddy's house, we have to make sure that we wash up and we do that through repenting.
I'm simply providing perspective as a believer, as the way I understand God. Some of the most amazing people in my life are not believers at all. I see God in them more than anyone else.
waitasec
Veteran Member
thank you for your honesty...
then god wouldn't make a good parent...
can you elaborate on the distinction?
i believe if someone has a beef with anything, talking about it and getting down to the nitty gritty will eventually lead someone to a revelation of some sort.
i understand why you disagree with that
i'm just looking at this from a perspective in regards to those who believe that there is a place called hell...and i forget there are believers who do not buy that...bad habit.
is this a feeling you get or has this been stipulated in scripture?Of course God has faith in me but in order to have any sort of relationship with God, I have to believe in Him. I don't understand people's expectations of God, sometimes. People basically tell God to eff off everyday and then blame Him for all of the problems in the world. (Again, I'm not insinuating that you're saying such things...I'm going against my own values and doing a bit of blanket labeling, here.
As with any relationship...it requires a bit of effort on your part. He has faith in and love for all of us but He requires that we believe in Him, trust Him and listen to Him.
It's not an unrealistic expectation. That doesn't mean that He isn't behind the scenes working in our favor. We simply choose not to commune with Him and tap into a fruitful partnership that can be had.
but thats the thing...if we were to compare a parents relationship with their child to god relationship with believers, the child's wrong doing has no bearing on a parents unconditional love... ideally.
if there were more christians/believers like you in the world, i'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation...
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
then god wouldn't make a good parent...
I think so. But then, that's the relationship that I want with God. I want that Father figure that I can turn to for guidance. He also makes a good friend.
This is the part that makes me a little nervous, because I don't want to sound like a whacko but the experiences are indeed different.
I'm a very intuitive person, especially as a Mom. I'll sleep through my alarm, but if my children are having nightmares, I wake from sleep and instinctively go to them. My daughter was in TN during the summer and I woke from sleep at 3ish in the morning one night, knowing something was wrong, and she had woke up at the same time, with a nightmare, unable to sleep. My intuition is what I perceive to be my internal alarm - my sixth sense - that which kicks in when I need to be aware that something just isn't right. It also keeps me in tune to people. I can pick up on pain, sorrow. It's that part of my brain, I suppose that picks up on that which you may not be able to see but can sense about the world and people around you.
My conscience is my own sing songy voice in my head, keeping me straight, reminding me that I need to be nice, need to feed the cats, need to not get caught up in the gossip train at work - sometimes it's the voice of my mother - reminding me of right from wrong.
My interaction with God, the Holy Spirit is much different. It's a different voice, a different feeling. It comes from within my heart, my soul, it's interaction that comes my core, my mind but also comes from around me as well. It's not the same voice, not the same feeling of confirmation that I get when I'm awoken out of deep sleep because I know something isn't right. I interact with a completely different entity.
Crazy as it might sound...there it is.
I don't argue with this. Discussion is very good. I much like these sorts of discussions.
I find hell to be a ridiculous thing to dwell on, personally.
I gather this from scripture but it makes sense to me that God would have to have faith in me to invest any sort of time in me. Why would he bother with me if he didn't have any sort of faith in me? If he didn't believe in my worth, why would he invest energy into helping me become a better person, or helping me through my hardships?
There's love there. He's led me to something quite beautiful. Had I not listened, I would have been far to fearful to pursue it. I know he sees my worth.
I find God's love for his creation to be comparable to a parent's love for their child.
Think of it this way. If a parent raised a child who became a complete screw up - a horrid beast within society - murderer, rapist, etc. A parent might lose complete touch with that child but they could still have love for their child, even through they let go of their relationship in the traditional sense. They may have no choice as a result of their child's actions and choices. Would the love and feelings that a parent have for their child be any less sincere? I doubt it. I could never not love my children but if they made certain choices in life, the consequences for their actions may change the parent/child dynamic and the relationship that we have.
if there were more christians/believers like you in the world, i'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation...
I appreciate that. I'm often chastised by loved ones for my ideas. I come from a staunchly conservative Christian family of matriarchs (Southern Baptist, nonetheless). My belief system is often under scrutiny but I'm raising good children believing as I do...so I fight my battles, one by one...
waitasec
Veteran Member
thank you for thatI think so. But then, that's the relationship that I want with God. I want that Father figure that I can turn to for guidance. He also makes a good friend.
This is the part that makes me a little nervous, because I don't want to sound like a whacko but the experiences are indeed different.
I'm a very intuitive person, especially as a Mom. I'll sleep through my alarm, but if my children are having nightmares, I wake from sleep and instinctively go to them. My daughter was in TN during the summer and I woke from sleep at 3ish in the morning one night, knowing something was wrong, and she had woke up at the same time, with a nightmare, unable to sleep. My intuition is what I perceive to be my internal alarm - my sixth sense - that which kicks in when I need to be aware that something just isn't right. It also keeps me in tune to people. I can pick up on pain, sorrow. It's that part of my brain, I suppose that picks up on that which you may not be able to see but can sense about the world and people around you.
My conscience is my own sing songy voice in my head, keeping me straight, reminding me that I need to be nice, need to feed the cats, need to not get caught up in the gossip train at work - sometimes it's the voice of my mother - reminding me of right from wrong.
My interaction with God, the Holy Spirit is much different. It's a different voice, a different feeling. It comes from within my heart, my soul, it's interaction that comes my core, my mind but also comes from around me as well. It's not the same voice, not the same feeling of confirmation that I get when I'm awoken out of deep sleep because I know something isn't right. I interact with a completely different entity.
Crazy as it might sound...there it is.
I don't argue with this. Discussion is very good. I much like these sorts of discussions.
I find hell to be a ridiculous thing to dwell on, personally.
ok so now it my turn to share...
the very fact there is a book that labels god and sets out arbitrary rules tells me the exact opposite...
my mom is a firm believer and she's one of those people that thinks the reason why she gets a great parking spot at costco's is because god provided it for her..
i have another friend who's father fell on his head/back from falling from the roof of his house, and she said, there must be a god it's a miracle he didn't die...but then my mind immediately thinks, ok, what about the other people who fell and did die...
for me this way of thinking puts to much emphasis on the self and feeds into a false sense of security.
as i consider the cosmos i am more and more convinced
that we are so very small in the scheme of things and i find it quite humbling. christopher hitchens said something to the effect of:
take a black hole and consider it's enormity and power and yet here on earth there are those who are impressed by a burning bush'
i am self employed and there is nothing more scary than that...because i see 1st hand the potential for disaster or for success.
i used to work for an employer in the hospitality business and never thought twice about how fragile it all is and how at any moment something could happen to bring this business onto it's knees..which would ultimately expose my frailty. i can see this now because i took a leap into the abyss of self employment which changed my perspective. it has afforded me an appreciation of my frailty i didn't have before. that is the best way i can explain to you why i don't believe.
this isn't the god that i have a problem with...
keep on shining....
tarekabdo12
Active Member
1- I think your words didn't deliver the exact meaning you wanted. Be more precise.
2- Parents are very important for the survival and care of their childern whether in the human life or in the life of all other animals.
3-God is far more important than parents since He created the parets and also gave them all the senses and powers they need. He created their bodies, emotions and soles. He gave them life.
4-This life was created for examinig the better personalities and giving them better chances, places and luxury in Heaven. That's why any of the hardships that we face are exams for us whether we are great or not. A harder exam refers to a better person if he succeeds. Any of the hardships or sufferings you face will also be met with greatest amens later on.
5- My religion doesn't accept the idea of killing the son for sacrifice if you were pointing to it.
6-Religion has some objective ways to prove itself→
COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BIRDS
COMMUNICATION BETWEEN BIRDS | Quran Miracles
FEMALE HONEYBEE, BUILDER OF HER OWN CELL
FEMALE HONEYBEE, BUILDER OF HER OWN CELL | Quran Miracles
SOIL THAT VIBRATES AND SWELLS AS IT COMES TO LIFE
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...mes-to-life-2/
FEMALE ANT AND COMMUNICATION BETWEEN ANIMALS
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...tween-animals/
THE EARTH DOES ROTATE EVEN THOUGH WE ARE NOT CONSCIOUS OF IT
http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/08...nscious-of-it/
IDENTITY ON FINGER TIPS
IDENTITY ON FINGER TIPS | Quran Miracles
7-The intricate nature of the worlds design, the design of different creatures and the design of the first cell and even the atoms and molecuoles delivers a valid proof for God. So, if God created the creatures in that great way so He's able to take good care of them.
waitasec
Veteran Member
before we continue, can you tell me what i meant or what you think i meant?
tarekabdo12
Active Member
I understood that you meant God can't take care of us like a father, nothing else so I wrote everything around this meaning.
waitasec
Veteran Member
tarekabdo12
Active Member
Ok,choose what you mean and lets take about it.
waitasec
Veteran Member
yes absolutely. however there are animals that do not have the nurturing nature humans have and those animals tend to be loners and not work with in the structure of the pack. since we are social beings, we rely on our parents to teach us what the guide lines are with in the social structure we live in. psychology 101 stipulates that if a child is told over and over again that they are not a valuable person they will most likely turn out to believe it and grow up to be a menace to society. the abused becomes the abuser.
since i have only been exposed to the christian dogma i will use that as an example...
gen 8:21 says we are basically inclined to be evil. to me that is just like a parent telling their child, 'no matter how hard you try to be good, you are in essence evil.' and why? what is evil, our struggle our ignorance?
i liken "the fall" to holding a 2 yr old responsible for not looking both ways before crossing the street...they understand what no means however they don't understand the consequence.
i understand that the idea of god is more important than parents. i just don't agree with that way of thinking...because it really doesn't answer to anything
and i am of the opinion inquiry deserves to be answered. just like a child asks their parent..the parents answer should satisfy the inquisitive mind...not ignore it
this seems like a selfish motivation
the here and now is all we have right now and i propose this way of thinking undermines that.
fair enough...
i would argue this was a poetic way of saying 'we are of the same mind...'
it is no secret that a flock of birds move as one
these do not prove anything other than a keen sense of the animal kingdom and how the earth works...but you have to concede that these truths were not exclusive to the religion of islam.
socrates and plato spoke of many truths too.
i used to think like this. but then i saw pictures of the universe and even though i had already seen it with the POV you have, i all of a sudden realized how small and insignificant we all are...we are all in the same boat
and belief in a deity isn't going to change the fact that we are all heading toward obscurity...
but we have the here and now to dive into and savor
and that is not saying lets do what we want when we want...because i am a strong believer in the awareness of other beings. we are all in the same boat
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dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I don't disagree with you.
For what it's worth, I find beauty and value in this way of thinking. It's humbling to feel small next to the ocean, next to the mountains. In a way, I think I know where you might be coming from, maybe in a smaller sense...but still. I think I might follow you.
I understand.
And it's interesting because in much the same way, this is why I DO believe.
You as well.