Does God make mistakes

[sojourner]

Not following you . . . moral codes are general and limited to social / governmental / cultural boundaries in order to maintain some kind of safeness for everyone.

They can also be specific and personal. In fact, they usually begin as specific and personal, because they begin with personal distaste over a specific act or circumstance.

 

[sojourner]

Ah. I have a different belief. Morality is built in us: our Buddhanature. We do bad things and we know its bad because it conflicts with Who we are. We have to learn we are not our actions. I understand what you are saying. It make sense. It just doesnt line up in my head (I know. Contradiction). Its logical but not how I see reality (not, choose to see)

I think we do see it the same way. Because it's our inner nature that finds certain things distasteful.

 

[ether-ore]

In your belief he didn't know what would happen?

I don't believe foreknowledge of an event confers responsibility for that event. Adam and Eve made the choice and acted on it. They were in no way forced into taking that action. Sole responsibility for disobedience lies with Adam and Eve.

 

[ether-ore]

Oops . . . did you say "FACTS" ?
There are no facts when it comes to the Abrahamic god and this mythology / cosmology

This god certainly did . . . according to His Almighty book
Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Your use of words such as "obey" "penalty" "paid for those sins" clearly defines this evil manipulative religion

Furthermore:
A lecture delivered at the meeting of the Royal Society of Medicine first published in 1951 by Routledge and Kegan Paul Limited Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, London, B.C.4 - Printed in Great Britain by Butler and Tanner Limited Frome and London

The Original Sin as the tradition of the Fall from the Garden of Eden' is an archetypal structure embedded deep within our unconsciousness. The Original Sin is Man's guilt of being carnivorous and lycanthropic.

We are all descended from males of the carnivorous lycanthropic variety, a mutation evolved under the pressure of hunger caused by the climatic change at the end of the pluvial period, which induced indiscriminate, even cannibalistic predatory aggression, culminating in the rape and sometimes even in the devouring of the females of the original peaceful fruit-eating bon sauvage remaining in the primeval virgin forests.

It was the 'clothes of skin' and the 'aprons of fig-leaves', that produced the nakedness of man, and not the other way round, the urge to cover man's nudity that led to the invention of clothing. It is obvious that neither man nor woman could be 'ashamed' (Gen. ii. 25) or 'afraid because they were naked' (Gen. iii. 10 f.) before they had donned their animal's pelt or hunters' 'apron of leaves', and got so accustomed to wearing it that the uncovering of their defenseless bodies gave them a feeling of cold, fear and the humiliating impression of being again reduced to the primitive fruit-gatherer's state of a helpless 'unarmed animal' exposed to the assault of the better-equipped enemy.

The uncovered body could not have been considered 'indecorous' or 'im-moral'.
The very feeling of sin, the consciousness of having done something 'im-moral', contrary to the mores, customs or habits of the herd, could not be experienced before a part of the herd had wrenched itself free from the inherited behaviour-pattern and radically changed its way of life from that of a frugivorous to that of a carnivorous or omnivorous animal.

Yes, I said 'facts'. In the context of scripture, which is "all" the information we will ever know about God (that which He is willing to reveal). If you choose to restrict yourself to the empirical... that's fine... go right ahead. The passage you quoted from Isaiah refers to God's providence in creating this mortal opportunity for us. A prayerful preponderance of 'all' scripture tells me that. God created a condition where evil could exist if man chose to use his agency that way, but in so doing, God also provided a way for man to repent. The point of our being here in mortality is to learn to use and control these bodies which are new to us. Going contrary to God's law to the least degree is a sin for which a penalty must be paid. God paid that penalty Himself on condition of repentance.

What do I care about what some group says about original sin. They are not prophets and are therefore not qualified to interpret scripture.

 

[Jumi]

I don't believe foreknowledge of an event confers responsibility for that event. Adam and Eve made the choice and acted on it. They were in no way forced into taking that action. Sole responsibility for disobedience lies with Adam and Eve.

I don't see how perfect foreknowledge of a crime doesn't share in responsibility if it's committed. Especially when the crime is larger on scale than genocide.

If you knew someone was about to makie a terrible mistake that would lead to you killing off most of humanity(think flood) in a most terrible way wouldn't you do something to stop it? Besides telling them not to do it, since you knew doing that would lead them towards free will and not submission.

 

[EtuMalku]

Yes, I said 'facts'. In the context of scripture, which is "all" the information we will ever know about God (that which He is willing to reveal).

I'll have to stop you there . . . this so called "information" is hearsay written by men with an agenda.

 

[EtuMalku]

I don't believe foreknowledge of an event confers responsibility for that event. Adam and Eve made the choice and acted on it. They were in no way forced into taking that action. Sole responsibility for disobedience lies with Adam and Eve.

They were in no way forced into taking any action . . . the serpent merely pointed out to Eve that God is a liar and she will not die that day if she eats of the fruit of knowledge, which she did and did not die.

 

[ether-ore]

I'll have to stop you there . . . this so called "information" is hearsay written by men with an agenda.

You are suggesting that men separated by by hundreds... even thousands of years are somehow involved in a conspiracy to defraud humanity. These men... these prophets, even while separated widely by time, all testify to the same thing... that God exists and we are answerable to Him for our behavior. I choose to give these testimonies credibility because of their coherence. You choose not to. We all have our agency.

 

[Ouroboros]

You grossly misrepresent the facts. God did not create sin. He first gave man agency and then a choice to either obey or not. Man's choice brought sin into the world. Since we are all mortal and are prone to make mistakes, or rather, sin, in order for us to be able to return to our Father in Heaven, a penalty had to be paid for those sins. Since we could not pay that penalty ourselves, God the Son Himself paid it for us.

I wish I understood the desire or motive to want to discredit God.

Agency to choose obedience or not and proneness to making mistakes are both something God created, which led to sin. So it was ultimately God's created situation. Humans didn't create sin. Or put it this way, from where did sin get brought into by man? It must've come from somewhere. God's responsibility isn't magically taken away by saying that he created the thing (humans) that created error (sin). It's like me creating a robot that destroys a house and then I'm free from guilt because it was the robot that destroyed the house and not me. But I built the robot, so I share responsibility, the same way as God would share responsibility for creating man who in turn created sin. Or was it that God didn't even know what he was doing so he can claim ignorance or insanity?

 

[savagewind]

Agency to choose obedience or not and proneness to making mistakes are both something God created, which led to sin. So it was ultimately God's created situation. Humans didn't create sin. Or put it this way, from where did sin get brought into by man? It must've come from somewhere. God's responsibility isn't magically taken away by saying that he created the thing (humans) that created error (sin). It's like me creating a robot that destroys a house and then I'm free from guilt because it was the robot that destroyed the house and not me. But I built the robot, so I share responsibility, the same way as God would share responsibility for creating man who in turn created sin. Or was it that God didn't even know what he was doing so he can claim ignorance or insanity?

I do not think so. Car manufacturers are not guilty for the bad way people drive cars.

 

[Ouroboros]

I do not think so. Car manufacturers are not guilty for the bad way people drive cars.

Of course not, because they didn't create the drivers.

But if you make a self-driving car, and that car causes a crash, who is responsible? The AI system in the car has to go to jail? The computer has to be put to trial? Or is it a malfunction that the car manufacturer is responsible for? In civil court, I'm 100% sure it will be the car manufacturer.

Put it this way, were did our free will and consciousness come from? Isn't the free will and consciousness the "drivers" of our body, the vehicle? If God created the driver to the car, then your analogy doesn't fit simply because the car manufacturer in your case didn't create the drivers. The driver come from somewhere else. Perhaps you're suggesting that free will, consciousness, and mind weren't created by God after all but came from somewhere else?

 

[savagewind]

Of course not, because they didn't create the drivers.

But if you make a self-driving car, and that car causes a crash, who is responsible? The AI system in the car has to go to jail? The computer has to be put to trial? Or is it a malfunction that the car manufacturer is responsible for? In civil court, I'm 100% sure it will be the car manufacturer.

According to the Bible people are dirt and if they are good maybe they are grasshoppers. God did not create the way people drive. Though God allows it because........maybe because it is funny.

 

[Ouroboros]

According to the Bible people are dirt and if they are good maybe they are grasshoppers. God did not create the way people drive. Though God allows it because........maybe because it is funny.

If God created free will, the freedom to choose, and there's reason to believe God knew beforehand that this design would cause sin, then he has responsibility. Simple as that. He decided to create something that he fully well knew would cause sin. He had a choice to either change the design or not create it at all, but he knew that it would do it did, so he shares responsibility.

In tort law, even car manufacturers do get sues for accidents, even if they were not driving. I was in a big court case years ago, just like that, and the car manufacturer had intentionally hidden tests and knew that they could have done a safer car, but choose to not do it. They lost. They carried a huge burden of responsibility.

 

[savagewind]

If God created free will, the freedom to choose, and there's reason to believe God knew beforehand that this design would cause sin, then he has responsibility. Simple as that. He decided to create something that he fully well knew would cause sin. He had a choice to either change the design or not create it at all, but he knew that it would do it did, so he shares responsibility.

In tort law, even car manufacturers do get sues for accidents, even if they were not driving. I was in a big court case years ago, just like that, and the car manufacturer had intentionally hidden tests and knew that they could have done a safer car, but choose to not do it. They lost. They carried a huge burden of responsibility.

I forget if you are a person believing God isn't real. You say, "If God created...." . Free will isn't a creation. I am sure. Is not free will an illusion?

 

[savagewind]

Is the fact that I can see my reflection in a mirror God's fault?

 

[EtuMalku]

You are suggesting that men separated by by hundreds... even thousands of years are somehow involved in a conspiracy to defraud humanity. These men... these prophets, even while separated widely by time, all testify to the same thing... that God exists and we are answerable to Him for our behavior. I choose to give these testimonies credibility because of their coherence. You choose not to. We all have our agency.

Choice is a good thing and you are more than welcome to your own . . . however, there are religions that greatly span further and with as much if not more coherency than the Abrahamic one. Why don't you follow one of them since you place such importance on such trivial tenets?

 

[Ouroboros]

I forget if you are a person believing God isn't real. You say, "If God created...." . Free will isn't a creation. I am sure. Is not free will an illusion?

I don't know if it's an illusion or not. But in the context of the discussion, didn't God supposedly create free will or are you suggesting that free will is eternal and independent of God?s Regardless, if God created humans to have free will, and God knew what would happen, he has shared responsibility. Imagine the car maker putting in a random thing in the engine that makes it explode sometime in the future. It's not the drivers fault if the car explodes, but the makers. If humans were given the free will to choose, and God knew it would eventually happen, then God could choose.

 

[Ouroboros]

Is the fact that I can see my reflection in a mirror God's fault?

Of course it is. God created matter, photons, you, so ultimately it's God's intent and creation.

 

[savagewind]

I don't know if it's an illusion or not. But in the context of the discussion, didn't God supposedly create free will or are you suggesting that free will is eternal and independent of God?s Regardless, if God created humans to have free will, and God knew what would happen, he has shared responsibility. Imagine the car maker putting in a random thing in the engine that makes it explode sometime in the future. It's not the drivers fault if the car explodes, but the makers. If humans were given the free will to choose, and God knew it would eventually happen, then God could choose.

There is no such thing as free will in my opinion. There is will and won't. They are not free.

 

[Ouroboros]

There is no such thing as free will in my opinion. There is will and won't. They are not free.

Then sin can't be judged. It's not our fault of anything we're doing since we can't choose.