Does god want everyone to be saved?

[URAVIP2ME]

This is my current way of reading the Bible - New and Old Testaments( I also am of the opinion that religion is being used as a tool of control and suffocation).

I have found that many people think religion is a tool of control,etc.
To me, false clergy have used 'scare tactics' to try to control the flock of God. ( such as a false hell-fire teaching )
I can't find anything suffocating about Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he had. To me, that is even superior to the Bible's Golden Rule.

When the Bible speaks of healing for earth's nations at Revelation 22:2 that is Not suffocating but liberating.
It's a wonderful thought that God will remove that 'suffocating blanket of death' that now overshadows mankind.
In my view, what Isaiah 25:8 wrote that death will be swallowed up is 'freeing Not frightening' because when something is swallowed it is gone forever. No more suffocating death on Earth.

Since death is our enemy, then my understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:26 is that enemy death will be brought to nothing.
Something which is brought to nothing does Not exist any more. What a wonderful breath of fresh air.

 

[hughwatt]

Good day to you all. First time posting.

In reply to the OP; God wants all to be saved but knows not all will respond to His love invitation of salvation through His Son, Jesus. Those who are intent upon mocking Him will come under judgment, blindness to His Truth being a result of that.

Btw, can anyone advise me on how to "Start a new conversation?" When I try posting it said something about having to add participants. What's that all about?

Will reply as time permits. Work and all that.

Thanks.

Oh, the questionnaire should have added another option: 'Yes, but not all want to be saved.'

 

[QuestioningMind]

Emphasis mine.

God's actions suggest otherwise. First, god confined them to a garden that contained a forbidden tree with poison fruit. If I recall, it was centrally located, not where it could easily be missed. Moreover, it was attractive to the woman. God could have made it unattractive.

This pretends that god needed to magically imbue a natural object like edible fruit, with the supernatural property of imparting forbidden knowledge in the first place. If such a thing had to exist, why in the garden home of perfection? If in the home, why centrally located where it would tempt the humans who did not know the difference between good and evil? And so on...

Do these seem like actions of a god who really didn't want them to eat the fruit? Have you ever been told not to do something? That thing becomes foremost on your mind. And just in case they could resist, god seeds the garden with an evil, talking snake to seal the deal. This does not align with the idea that god didn't want them to eat of the tree. It seemed like god was pushing for exactly the outcome he got.

Well said. I've been saying for a long time that if God hadn't intended A&E to eat from the tree then He shouldn't have created them gullible enough to be tricked by a talking snake into doing what they'd been told not to. The idea that this God would then turn around and punish His creations for having been unfortunate enough to have been created with the glaring flaw sounds nothing short of sadistic.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Did you ever see, or picture, a cookie cutter with a dent in it. Each and every cookie comes out dented.
Once humanly perfect Adam and Eve corrupted themselves ( broke God's Law ) they were like dented cookie cutters.
In my view, they passed on to us their defect, and we being imperfect ( dented so to speak ) can Not fix ourselves.
If we could acquire human perfection on our own we would Not need someone to help ( un-dent ) us.
God sent heavenly (un-dented) Jesus to be a corresponding ransom for us and undo what father Adam brought up us.

But if God created A&E gullible enough to be tricked by a talking snake that God obviously created as well then they were created flawed (with a dent in the cookie cutter) to begin with. For God to then blame His creations for having been created with the flaw He created them with seems absurd.

 

[Etritonakin]

I always understood the passage in 1Ti. 2:4 to mean that god had a strong desire for everyone to be saved, past, present, and future. But the rest of the Bible does not support universalism. Jesus makes it clear that the vast majority will enter into the wrong gate.

I also thought god's will was inviolable. What god wants, god gets. Nothing can stand in the way of his will. No amount of human free will can change that. So if even one person goes unsaved, it has to be because god didn't want that person to be saved. How much more true does that have to be if most people will not be saved?

All of that is before you get to the declaration in Romans 9 that some are created to be vessels of destruction. This means the Bible offers two opposing views of god's will for salvation. One view is that god wants everyone to be saved. And the other view is that there are some created who were never intended to be saved. Which is it?

Yes.

The bible contains many statements which one must "rightly divide" -or put in the correct order.

It is also stated that the word of the Lord is "line upon line", "precept upon precept", here a a little and there a little"

All of the bible supports the same thing -and it must all be taken together to be understood.

God is ABLE to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna -the lake of fire -but that is not necessarily what WILL happen. It is possible -and there must be an ultimatum -but God turning all to righteousness is also possible.
An individual must eventually choose -but as it is the correct choice and there is no valid reason not to choose it, God may be able to bring all to that choice. There are many verses which suggest such -and actually apparently state as much. The other verses are all true -but some refer to the end result, and others to various points in the process.

This is the most important verse (IMO) concerning that fire.....
1 Corinthians 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Notice that though some will be cast into the lake of fire, death and the grave are eventually cast into the lake of fire.....

Rev 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

Also....

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Did you ever see, or picture, a cookie cutter with a dent in it. Each and every cookie comes out dented.
Once humanly perfect Adam and Eve corrupted themselves ( broke God's Law ) they were like dented cookie cutters.
In my view, they passed on to us their defect, and we being imperfect ( dented so to speak ) can Not fix ourselves.
If we could acquire human perfection on our own we would Not need someone to help ( un-dent ) us.
God sent heavenly (un-dented) Jesus to be a corresponding ransom for us and undo what father Adam brought up us.

Or He could've bought new cookie cutters or fixed the dented one. Didn't realize that was outside God's power range.

God forewarned that eating from the forbidden tree would cause: death.

Except it didn't. It granted superpowers and God didn't want to share. God confirms the serpent's story Himself.

 

[dandbj13]

I believe that when a person dies, his spirit leaves his body but does not cease to exist as a cognizant entity, with the capacity to learn, make choices and progress. I further believe that during the period between one's death and his resurrection, he will have the opportunity to hear and understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, repent of his sins, and accept the Savior's atoning sacrifice on his behalf. What kind of a loving God would create us (i.e. humanity), give His Only Begotten Son as a ransom for our sins -- contingent upon our belief in Him -- and then make it impossible for so many to be the recipients of that gift simply because they were born at the wrong time or in the wrong place? That's not the kind of God I believe in.

The problem I have with this notion from a biblical perspective is He. 9:27: It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgment. In your scenario, there is a second-chance clause, where we get to hear a pure rendition of the gospel without errors or cultural biases. And we get to make choices free from external pressures.

As a former Christian, I would have found that an appealing notion. But beyond the quoted passage, I would have wondered why, if god could give us that opportunity in some quasi-afterlife, why couldn't he have managed it in this one.

 

[Kapalika]

My understanding is that the Bible teaches we need to be saved ( rescued/ delivered ) from enemy death.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone to resurrect us.

To me, the correct Christian ( biblical ) view of hell is: the Bible's hell is simply man's temporary grave.
Jesus taught 'sleep in death' according to John 11:11-14, so while dead Jesus was in hell, then Jesus was in a sleep-like state until God resurrected the dead Jesus out of biblical hell. - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; 3:15.
Jesus teaching is in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death:
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Jesus now has keys to unlock biblical hell according to Revelation 1:18 so biblical hell is Not eternal.
The Bible's hell ends up empty. After everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up' ( resurrected ) out of temporary hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell - Revelation 20:13-14

I'm curious then what you make of Mathew 5:22, 13:50, 18:8, 25:41, Luke 16:24, Mark 9:43, 9:48, Revelation 14:10, 19:20, 20:10, 20:14-15, and 21:8.

All the verses pretty about a fire and brimstone Hell. I don't agree with it, as I don't believe in the Christian Bible, but I'm wondering what you make of these verses given your position.

 

[Katzpur]

The problem I have with this notion from a biblical perspective is He. 9:27: It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgment. In your scenario, there is a second-chance clause, where we get to hear a pure rendition of the gospel without errors or cultural biases. And we get to make choices free from external pressures.

In other words, a level playing field. Something that you might expect from a truly just God. I can certainly see why you (and most others) are reading your bolded words the way you do. But stop and think about it for a minute. The scripture says that we die once. They also say that we are judged after we die. They don't say that we are judged immediately after we die or that, even if we were, it would be the final judgment. The scriptures also speak of another judgment -- one that will be final. That judgment is not going to happen until the Second Coming of Christ.

There is scriptural evidence to support my beliefs. Otherwise I would not believe as I do. John 5:25 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you,The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." This clearly implies that they will not have heard His voice during their lifetimes, but after their death. And when they hear it, it won't be too late. 1 Peter 3:19-20 tells of Christ's visit to the "spirits in prison." These were the spirits of those who died thousands of years earlier. He preached His gospel to them. And 1 Peter 4:6 says that after the gospel is taught to the dead, they (obviously those who accept it) will live. Jesus didn't just preach a sermon with the message, "Neener, neener, neener. You're going to hell."

If you research Christianity of the first and second centuries, you'll discover that it was commonly believed -- and taught by the early Church Fathers -- that the spirit does not go to either Heaven or Hell immediately upon death, but resides in a intermediate state (the body having been buried in the ground) until the resurrection. Depending upon how a person lived his life, this state will be either like paradise or like hell. But it will not be permanent. The spirits of those already converted to Christ will teach those who did not hear His gospel during mortality, and they will have a chance to accept it prior to His Second Coming.

As a former Christian, I would have found that an appealing notion. But beyond the quoted passage, I would have wondered why, if god could give us that opportunity in some quasi-afterlife, why couldn't he have managed it in this one.

I would imagine that it was for the same reason that He permitted Adam and Eve to disobey Him and eat the fruit He'd told them not to eat. He has given each of us our agency. We are free to choose to either accept or reject His words. But in order to do that, we must at least have the opportunity to hear them. Just think of the hundreds of millions of people living even today in parts of the world where the governments of the land forbid the gospel of Jesus Christ to be taught. Yeah, I suppose God could just strike Kim Jong-un, for instance, dead, and by some miracle, have Christianity spread throughout North Korea. He doesn't, though. I don't think it's that "He couldn't have managed it," but that He chose a different way instead.

Just my two cents. Thanks for reading.

 

[paarsurrey]

Does god want everyone to be saved?

Do you want to be saved? Please
Regards

 

[wicketkeeper]

I have found that many people think religion is a tool of control,etc.
To me, false clergy have used 'scare tactics' to try to control the flock of God. ( such as a false hell-fire teaching )
I can't find anything suffocating about Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he had. To me, that is even superior to the Bible's Golden Rule.

When the Bible speaks of healing for earth's nations at Revelation 22:2 that is Not suffocating but liberating.
It's a wonderful thought that God will remove that 'suffocating blanket of death' that now overshadows mankind.
In my view, what Isaiah 25:8 wrote that death will be swallowed up is 'freeing Not frightening' because when something is swallowed it is gone forever. No more suffocating death on Earth.

Since death is our enemy, then my understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:26 is that enemy death will be brought to nothing.
Something which is brought to nothing does Not exist any more. What a wonderful breath of fresh air.

To live from the heart is my way of life, and I have been doing so for 40 years. I often fail but rise up and dust myself down and focus on living from the heart.

Death does not fear me as I have had a NDE(Near Death Experience)and know where I am going.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But if God created A&E gullible enough to be tricked by a talking snake that God obviously created as well then they were created flawed (with a dent in the cookie cutter) to begin with. For God to then blame His creations for having been created with the flaw He created them with seems absurd.

ALL creation is free-willed creation. God forces No one to worship or serve Him.
My understanding of 1 Timothy 2:14 is that Eve was deceived ( tricked ) but Adam was Not deceived.
Adam deliberately chose to die with Eve. Adam willfully chose Eve over his God.
Before breaking God's law both A&E had perfect health, so No they were Not flawed.
ALL angels had perfect spirit bodies. Not all angels chose to join Satan in his rebellion to have humans worship him.
Satan became imperfect when he deliberately chose to rebel against God - James 1:13-15

For all we know (my opinion) that talking 'snake' ( in the grass, so to speak ) could have told Eve that it could talk because he eats from the forbidden tree. The tree was Not a poisonous tree, The tree stood for the Law of the Land.
God did Not blame his creation. Most people know its the Law to stop at a red light. When a person deliberately goes through a red light does anyone blame the 'law maker' for the wrong the 'law breaker' did.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

To live from the heart is my way of life, and I have been doing so for 40 years. I often fail but rise up and dust myself down and focus on living from the heart.
Death does not fear me as I have had a NDE(Near Death Experience)and know where I am going.

In my view, most people often fail and you are to be commended that you rise up and dust yourself off.....

What I would like to emphasize is Not death but about: life.
My understanding of what Jesus taught at Matthew 25:31-33,37 is Not about righteous people facing or fearing death.
But, that there is a coming ' time of separation ' coming to Earth when living people on Earth, can continue to live on Earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1,000-year rule over Earth when even enemy death will be brought to nothing. Death will be gone from Earth because death will be swallowed up - Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26.
So, to me, the living can also know where they are going. They are going to be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as Jesus' promised at Matthew 5:5 when he referred to Psalms 37:10-11.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Does god want everyone to be saved?
Do you want to be saved? Please
Regards

Saved from what !
My understanding of Scripture is that we need to be saved ( rescued/delivered ) from: enemy death.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can do that for us.
My understanding of Revelation 1:18 is that Jesus can and will resurrect the dead.
As far as living people on Earth, who are alive on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37 need to be saved/rescued/delivered through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
Yes, to me, God wants everyone to be saved, and that is why we are asked to ' repent ' so as Not to 'perish' ( be destroyed ) as mentioned at 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Or He could've bought new cookie cutters or fixed the dented one. Didn't realize that was outside God's power range.
Except it didn't. It granted superpowers and God didn't want to share. God confirms the serpent's story Himself.

Yes, breaking God's Law regarding the forbidden tree did bring death because Adam and Eve are No longer alive.
Sure I think God could have fixed dented Adam and Eve, but the Law specified ' death ' for eating forbidden fruit as is my understanding of what is written at Genesis 2:17. In other words, they were warned in advance.
They were told before they ate and Not after they ate. If God did Not keep His word, then how could God be trusted.
God can Not lie according to Titus 1:2, so since God connected the death penalty to breaking the Law then He would Not go back on His word/ His Law.

No superpowers for wicked Satan. Mortal Satan will come to a final end when Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B. Satan ends up in ' second death ' as mentioned at Revelation 21:8. So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for destruction as in all the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' according to Psalms 92:7.

 

[Sleeppy]

It's not a question of "want".

At that point, you're not dealing with God, you're dealing not only with a being of limitation, but a being susceptible to outside influence.


The premise is contrary to monotheism.

Does God know?-- This is a better question for monotheists to consider. Any qualifier after 'know' is redundant. Why? Because 'God' is a wholly efficient qualifier. God, by definition, has no superior in any sense. In other words, God knows.

Add that to your initial question.

God is salvation. Again, why? Because God precedes and facilitates the knowledge of salvation. The knowledge of salvation preceded subjective needs on Earth.

God knows who, what, where, how and why concerning salvation. And, being sons and daughters, you inherit. Reread and consider Elihu's testimony to Job.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm curious then what you make of Mathew 5:22, 13:50, 18:8, 25:41, Luke 16:24, Mark 9:43, 9:48, Revelation 14:10, 19:20, 20:10, 20:14-15, and 21:8.
All the verses pretty about a fire and brimstone Hell. I don't agree with it, as I don't believe in the Christian Bible, but I'm wondering what you make of these verses given your position.

I think most people will agree that originally the Bible was Not written in English, but mostly in Hebrew and Greek.
KJV (King James Version Bibles ) translated the word ' Gehenna ' as hell or hellfire - Matthew 5:22, etc.
So, to me, we need to be educated as to what is ' Gehenna '.
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were ' destroyed forever ' and Not kept burning forever. So, KJV translating Gehenna into English as hellfire gave a different slant to the original wording.
My understanding then is that Gehenna stands for or represents: destruction.
To me, that is in harmony with Psalms 92:7 that the wicked will be destroyed forever. ( annihilated )
That is also why 2 Peter 3:9 gives us two (2) choices. ' repent ' or 'perish ' ( be destroyed ).

The biblical definition of the lake of fire as mentioned at Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8 B, and Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6 is defined as ' second death '.
My understanding of Hebrews 2:14 B is that Jesus will destroy wicked Satan.
Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
Hope this is of some help.

 

[Repox]

I always understood the passage in 1Ti. 2:4 to mean that god had a strong desire for everyone to be saved, past, present, and future. But the rest of the Bible does not support universalism. Jesus makes it clear that the vast majority will enter into the wrong gate.

I also thought god's will was inviolable. What god wants, god gets. Nothing can stand in the way of his will. No amount of human free will can change that. So if even one person goes unsaved, it has to be because god didn't want that person to be saved. How much more true does that have to be if most people will not be saved?

All of that is before you get to the declaration in Romans 9 that some are created to be vessels of destruction. This means the Bible offers two opposing views of god's will for salvation. One view is that god wants everyone to be saved. And the other view is that there are some created who were never intended to be saved. Which is it?

God doesn't will salvation, He offers it. I believe it depends on what humans do. If humans don't obey God's Commandments, there is no salvation. In heaven, there can be no alternate life styles, alternate gods, or anything which distracts from the two Gods in a sphere. The first rebellion was when Satan separated himself from the holy worship circle and attempted to be like God. It may happen again, but I doubt it. The remaining angels have been tested for a very long time. In short, salvation is not easy. It's just my opinion, no one really knows.

 

[paarsurrey]

Saved from what !
My understanding of Scripture is that we need to be saved ( rescued/delivered ) from: enemy death.
We can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can do that for us.
My understanding of Revelation 1:18 is that Jesus can and will resurrect the dead.
As far as living people on Earth, who are alive on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37 need to be saved/rescued/delivered through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
Yes, to me, God wants everyone to be saved, and that is why we are asked to ' repent ' so as Not to 'perish' ( be destroyed ) as mentioned at 2 Peter 3:9.

"Saved from what !"

Saved from sin.
Does one want to be saved from sin? Please
Regards

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yes, breaking God's Law regarding the forbidden tree did bring death because Adam and Eve are No longer alive.

They didn't die that day. As I recall, the rule said that in the day that they ate it, they'd die. They lived to be nearly a thousand years old. That's just bad child rearing practice. They were going to die anyway. It never says they were naturally immortal and immortality was a perk of eating from the Tree of Life, which the bible doesn't say they did.

In other words, they were warned in advance.

If you tell a child that if they pick up a gun, they will die, I can guarantee you they will pick up the gun because THEY DON'T GET WHAT DEATH IS. You have NOTHING to provide me with in terms of evidence that Adam and Eve are smarter than some 7 year old. Read up on child development: the characters are basically 7 year olds mentally if not physically.

They were told before they ate and Not after they ate.

"They" were certainly not. Eve was created AFTER God told ADAM.

If God did Not keep His word, then how could God be trusted.

That's the rub, ain't it? I guess if you wanted to be nice, you could say that God IS trustworthy, but the biblical authors are just bad at writing trustworthy characters.

God can Not lie according to Titus 1:2,

That author hasn't read the whole bible, then. If God doesn't lie, He sure does like to go all Obi-Wan and tell the truth "from a certain POV". Satan may be considered the Father of Lies (and nowhere in the bible does he do so, which is funny), but God is the biggest weasel there is in the bible.

so since God connected the death penalty to breaking the Law then He would Not go back on His word/ His Law.

If sinning resulted in death, there would be no one alive in the bible. Instead, PLENTY of "heroes" in the bible live to ripe old ages after getting away with sometimes LITERAL murder.

Mortal Satan will come to a final end when Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B.

If Jesus saves, why not save the "ultimate sinner"? And since the Jewish view of Satan isn't the Christian one, how can we be sure we aren't "demonizing" one of God's holy employees because we don't like to admit the Boss can do us wrong?

So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for destruction as in all the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' according to Psalms 92:7.

If you're destroyed, you're also not around to care. God doesn't think these things through, does He?