Does God Want You to Suffer?

[Aquitaine]

From other-side:

"Imagine we lived on a world like this:

- no Earthquakes , no Hurricanes,Tsunamis and whatever you count as a disaster!"

Yeah, I stopped reading after that. Because after that you went from a World without arbitrary, uncontrollable natural disasters - to then a chocolate world coated in sugar.

There's a difference between living in a World where you get everything you want, and a World where the occurance/intensity of natural disasters, birth defects and diseases are significantly reduced.

We're not asking for a chocolate world full of bunnies and eternal happiness and life, along with no desire/need to learn or improve - we're just speculating/proposing a world where there's less emphasis on uncontrollable natural disasters, birth defects and disease, I don't understand why you, and Riverwolf came to the conclusion that me and Beaud were asking for a magic fairytale cherry land of fairies and eternal love.

Here's another point, you say that suffering is our way to learn, our way to "pass the exam", in that case what about the (naturally) aborted fetuses (sp?), the infants that died after birth, the mentally disabled who're unable to grasp certain concepts, the children who starved to death in povety that had no access to any Bible or any other "word of God", and therefore couldn't/were unable to grasp the idea that life is all just a big test? What about the people, who didn't make it - did they just die, skip the test and go straight to an afterlife?

Also:

"How? by passing the exams,by testing yourself and finding out your capacity.God will give you the perfect world after death..."

O RLY?

Where's you're evidence of that, what makes you think there even is an afterlife? Then if that's the case then all this suffering was totally unneccessary. However, since I'm not religous I think it's unneccessary anyways.

 

[Riverwolf]

From other-side:

"Imagine we lived on a world like this:

- no Earthquakes , no Hurricanes,Tsunamis and whatever you count as a disaster!"

Yeah, I stopped reading after that. Because after that you went from a World without arbitrary, uncontrollable natural disasters - to then a chocolate world coated in sugar.

There's a difference between living in a World where you get everything you want, and a World where the occurance/intensity of natural disasters, birth defects and diseases are significantly reduced.

We're not asking for a chocolate world full of bunnies and eternal happiness and life, along with no desire/need to learn or improve - we're just speculating/proposing a world where there's less emphasis on uncontrollable natural disasters, birth defects and disease, I don't understand why you, and Riverwolf came to the conclusion that me and Beaud were asking for a magic fairytale cherry land of fairies and eternal love.

Here's another point, you say that suffering is our way to learn, our way to "pass the exam", in that case what about the (naturally) aborted fetuses (sp?), the infants that died after birth, the mentally disabled who're unable to grasp certain concepts, the children who starved to death in povety that had no access to any Bible or any other "word of God", and therefore couldn't/were unable to grasp the idea that life is all just a big test? What about the people, who didn't make it - did they just die, skip the test and go straight to an afterlife?

They die, remember their life and past lives, and take their (subconscious) experience to the next life.

(I know the concept of reincarnation is not proven factual, but just because something is not proven factual doesn't mean it isn't a possibility.)

BTW, it was probably because of the way you were wording your questions and arguments that led me to believe that you wanted a world of pleasure. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I will try to read your posts better before responding.

 

[blackout]

Does God Want You to Suffer?

I rather suspect gOd doesn't really "want" anything.

 

[LooseEnd]

Hello,
I have 2 simple questions that I'd like to ask. I'm sure these questions have arose before and you have answered them, but answer them once more.
I will begin with one simple thing, something disregard of religion, most of us can agree upon. Good and Bad. Most of us have a sense of good and bad, we know that this is good and that is bad. So sometimes I come into conclusions that some acts are bad, without asking for your opinion. So here goes my questions.

(1)Is God Good or Bad?

Second question has some explanation also.

(2)If I have a child, if I see someone kidnap her,rape her and kill her, If I could have done anything to prevent that from happening but if I didn't, I would be considered Bad. Is God Good or Bad?

Now I'm not expecting anything other than yes or no. But please explain. Everyone can give their opinion, but as a man of logic, I will only think,study logical answers. Therefor I must say that answers like "God has mysterious ways, That's how god intended it, Read Bible and you'll find out, He has a deeper meaning, you cant understand this yet" are not worth answers. By all means if you say so please explain with logic.

Also remember that I'm going by the Good and Bad theory that is for this world. I believe that if we do not understand the difference the world will not exist. So the answers " You will realise this in heaven, or Bad things happen in this world for a greater good at the end, etc" have no logical meaning.

 

[Riverwolf]

(1)Is God Good or Bad?

Neither. "Good" and "Bad" exist only in the human mind. (That does NOT mean they are irrelevant concepts that need to be done away with.)

(2)If I have a child, if I see someone kidnap her,rape her and kill her, If I could have done anything to prevent that from happening but if I didn't, I would be considered Bad. Is God Good or Bad?

I would not call you "bad," as that word is WAY too vague. I'd be more specific, but I wouldn't consider you anything until I'd talked to you and gotten an answer to the question, "Why did you do nothing?"

Now I'm not expecting anything other than yes or no. But please explain. Everyone can give their opinion, but as a man of logic, I will only think,study logical answers. Therefor I must say that answers like "God has mysterious ways, That's how god intended it, Read Bible and you'll find out, He has a deeper meaning, you cant understand this yet" are not worth answers. By all means if you say so please explain with logic.

Also remember that I'm going by the Good and Bad theory that is for this world. I believe that if we do not understand the difference the world will not exist. So the answers " You will realise this in heaven, or Bad things happen in this world for a greater good at the end, etc" have no logical meaning.

It may relieve you that I've only RARELY seen answers like this here. You've asked some good questions.

But I do wonder what the point of bringing logic into subjective concepts like good and bad. Isn't logic meant for objective concepts?

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I find it fascinating that you describe a rigidly mechanistic and deterministic world as your defense of free will.

I described the world as we understand it viewed through the lens of science. If anything I said above is untrue of reality, then call me out. But until then God is working on the same reality we exist in. As such Free Will can only exist if it exists in our reality. If some other universe has free will I don't really care as it has nothing to do with us.

MTF

 

[other-side]

We're not asking for a chocolate world full of bunnies and eternal happiness and life, along with no desire/need to learn or improve - we're just speculating/proposing a world where there's less emphasis on uncontrollable natural disasters, birth defects and disease, I don't understand why you, and Riverwolf came to the conclusion that me and Beaud were asking for a magic fairytale cherry land of fairies and eternal love.

Oh,Ok i,m sorry if i misunderstood the point!:cover:
What I believe is that because this world is physical it can't be perfect! you want a world with less uncontrollable natural disasters but I claim that this physical world is the best it can be and is the best!If the creator wanted to prevent earthquake for example it would have made new problems and the situation would have been worse than now! God doesn't want to make it a miracle world.he doesnt want to come down every moment and make an exception for one of the physical rules and then go up again! I don't want to get in complicated scientific reasons but have tsunami for example.it is made by the crust moving down the oceans.
why does it move?because we have hot lava beneath the crust and it's not homogeneous!some parts are very hot and some are just hot!
so their nature is to move! when they move some weak points break and the water will get the shock wave and after moving forward it will get bigger and bigger and at last it crushes in to the shore.

ok,now assume that we don't want any tsunamis.so the lava should not move beneath the crust so now we have an homogenizes stuff here.that means no movement.this will cause it to cool down and stop the reactions beneath.what will happen then? just think and answer.

so we can fix it in two ways.
1)God comes down and say that you lava move but don't break the crust beneath see because i don't want any tsunamis.or he says air don't move here because you will make wind and that will cause a disaster but move there and make the clouds move and rain so creatures can have food.

or he says oh! virus don't enter human's body because he will die instead enter somewhere else!! wouldn't that make God a silly one?:sad:

2)He makes a physical world with rules and he manages these rules to make the world as best as it can be!he doesn't interfere with these rules so people can study these rules and understand what's going on!

which one do you like?:meditate:

the children who starved to death in povety that had no access to any Bible or any other "word of God", and therefore couldn't/were unable to grasp the idea that life is all just a big test? What about the people, who didn't make it - did they just die, skip the test and go straight to an afterlife?

he has a good plan for them,don't worry.This world in not the end!he is the symbol of justice and that's why he makes afterlife.without this it will be really stupid.I believe they will grow in the afterlife and have the same chance to experience many things.I can't prove just like scientist can't prove many things and they use assumptions to make everything fit together.we should think and find out why this world is like that. we can assume that God is imperfect and he is evil or we can assume he is perfect and does the best.that will make our belief.If you don't believe in God, in his justice, in afterlife in soul then you will have lots of problems and lot's of un answered questions just like the children you mentioned.

it's like in Chemistry...You can believe in atoms,electrons,how they spin,the 114 elements that make the world and have less problems or you can think that world is made out of fire,water,soil and air and make everything complicated.it depends on you.on how you decide:sarcastic

P.S. Sorry for my English mistakes.It's not my mother language.i just hope I have transferred my points here.

 

[LooseEnd]

I comment so that I can have a better understanding of your theories,beliefs logics.

Neither. "Good" and "Bad" exist only in the human mind. (That does NOT mean they are irrelevant concepts that need to be done away with.)

Are you suggesting that Good or Bad does not exist when the GOD is concerned.?
Since the Good and Bad only exists in human mind is it an illusion? Or is it real, something that governs this society?

My simple theory is, if GOD is almighty(Knows everything,can do everything...etc) he is bad. Yes I simply use the word BAD as it means. No one has yet given me any logical answer to think otherwise.

I would not call you "bad," as that word is WAY too vague. I'd be more specific, but I wouldn't consider you anything until I'd talked to you and gotten an answer to the question, "Why did you do nothing?"

I see a contradiction here. So you are simply saying that there can be a reason for being bad, and if so its excusable. You are suggesting that GOD may have reasons for doing bad things(Forgive me for the word), until we know it we cannot say or judge whether he is good or bad??? This is same as my given answer "He has a deeper meaning, you cant understand this yet". Yet you yourself say that I will rarely find answers like this here.

If I have understood you wrong I apologize.

But I do wonder what the point of bringing logic into subjective concepts like good and bad. Isn't logic meant for objective concepts?

I do not understand what you mean. Please explain this more.(subjective concepts vs. objective concepts....I'm blank.)

 

[other-side]

(1)Is God Good or Bad?

he is not a creature to be good or bad , he creates so let me make it like: is he a good creator or a bad one? I answer he is good.my reason is in my previous post!

(2)If I have a child, if I see someone kidnap her,rape her and kill her, If I could have done anything to prevent that from happening but if I didn't, I would be considered Bad. Is God Good or Bad?

who made those good or bad feelings? ? ?
if they tell his/her father that don't be sad we will return him to you after a while :kissbette
we let him die not because we are bad but because we don't want to interfere with the rules we have made.we don't want to come down every time a bad guy wants to kill someone and knock him out...don't worry this is not the end of the story,I have made an afterlife for everyone.what will you answer? read my last post i talked about that there!!

 

[LooseEnd]

Oh,Ok i,m sorry if i misunderstood the point!:cover:
What I believe is that because this world is physical it can't be perfect! you want a world with less uncontrollable natural disasters but I claim that this physical world is the best it can be and is the best!If the creator wanted to prevent earthquake for example it would have made new problems and the situation would have been worse than now!

How do you know?

God doesn't want to make it a miracle world.he doesnt want to come down every moment and make an exception for one of the physical rules and then go up again!

How do you know friend?

I don't want to get in complicated scientific reasons but have tsunami for example.it is made by the crust moving down the oceans.
why does it move?because we have hot lava beneath the crust and it's not homogeneous!some parts are very hot and some are just hot!
so their nature is to move! when they move some weak points break and the water will get the shock wave and after moving forward it will get bigger and bigger and at last it crushes in to the shore.

ok,now assume that we don't want any tsunamis.so the lava should not move beneath the crust so now we have an homogenizes stuff here.that means no movement.this will cause it to cool down and stop the reactions beneath.what will happen then? just think and answer.

I thought a lot and with all due respect, I see no logic in this. If GOD wanted to stop tsunami's what he should have done was not stop lava moving, but make the earth perfect, where no plates, lava or anything that ever causes a tsunami.

or he says oh! virus don't enter human's body because he will die instead enter somewhere else!! wouldn't that make God a silly one?:sad:

I fail to understand why you cant see something as simple as this my friend. Think a bit. It's not saying 'Virus go somewhere else'. It's not creating Virus at all. Don't you simply understand if GOD is perfect as said to be, You can never bring any argument that would explain the evil, and bad in this world? You cannot bring such an argument. It's just simple.

2)He makes a physical world with rules and he manages these rules to make the world as best as it can be!he doesn't interfere with these rules so people can study these rules and understand what's going on!

Ok. that's ok. In other words, he can not make a perfect world. Because he is not perfect. He will not interfere with the rules of world or universe, because He cannot.

 

[LooseEnd]

By the time I saw your answer I have already commented on some of your thoughts in your last post. If I have seen this earlier, I would have taken more effort in commenting. Sorry about that.

he is not a creature to be good or bad , he creates so let me make it like: is he a good creator or a bad one? I answer he is good.my reason is in my previous post!

I did not see any such reason in your last post sorry.

who made those good or bad feelings? ? ?
if they tell his/her father that don't be sad we will return him to you after a while :kissbette
we let him die not because we are bad but because we don't want to interfere with the rules we have made.we don't want to come down every time a bad guy wants to kill someone and knock him out...don't worry this is not the end of the story,I have made an afterlife for everyone.what will you answer? read my last post i talked about that there!!

I see no reasoning in this. Perhaps I have not understood your points correctly. If so I'm sorry. I'm just going by the Good or Bad everyone understands and agrees upon. But my final destination is a deeper meaning. To rephrase "A man who would not act, when he has the ability to rescue his own child from dying, is considered bad in our society." This is my logic. I'm not saying that we should come down every time a bad guy want to kill someone. I do not understand your question about afterlife and stuff here BTW.

 

[other-side]

How do you know?

How do you know friend?

You want a logical answer? I want logic (not feelings) to prove the opposite is true.

If GOD wanted to stop tsunami's what he should have done was not stop lava moving, but make the earth perfect, where no plates, lava or anything that ever causes a tsunami.

What do you mean by perfect? It's like questioning the creator and saying "if I was you I have done this better",no problem. you have suggestions here. Ok give us your suggestions! Questioning someone(earth,nature,God,Satan ,whoever) is easy but if you don't give examples it will sound like your alibiing.
Earth should have been like...?
instead of being round i suggest.....
if earth had no plates it would have been good because....
your not happy with this world your living on and you want a better one,why don't you just tell us how should it be!

Think a bit. It's not saying 'Virus go somewhere else'. It's not creating Virus at all. Don't you simply understand if GOD is perfect as said to be, You can never bring any argument that would explain the evil, and bad in this world? You cannot bring such an argument. It's just simple.

again saying that there should be no viruses or this or that because it's is bad or evil is just a claim with no proof.it's like saying why do we have lions.they are evil they hunt other animals and live.I intentionally talked about virus.because many use it as a bad thing or an evil one.go to google and type benefit virus human...i have done this,take a look at this:

Viruses can be forced to evolve in ways to benefit humans
The Good Viruses - Viruses - All About Microbes - Microbe Magic
Are there some viruses´ benefits ????? - Yahoo! Answers
A few good viruses | COSMOS magazine


i loved this sentence:

This virus is kind of a gift from nature, a very safe and efficient virus, but nature never evolved it to be a human therapeutic. So, in a sense, we have to re-evolve it for that purpose," he said.

we have recently discovered viruses and now we know how to make them benefit us.(it's funny but think about Computer virusesif our computers didnt get any viruses we couldn't improve in discovering methods to protect our information) give time to science to prove many things but if you want to know it before science have faith.I'll give you an example:
- Abrahimic religions insist on not drinking wine or eating pork.Nowadays you can see how drinking wine can harm our body. or see the swine flue recently attacking the world!it's amazing isn't it? so If we listened to this we didnt need to wait 2000 years after to find out why they are bad!
Do you need to wait till science proves something, after a long time, to believe in it?

Ok. that's ok. In other words, he can not make a perfect world. Because he is not perfect. He will not interfere with the rules of world or universe, because He cannot.

I said Physical world has many limits in its existance. I hope you study about other worlds like Astral, Mental, Buddhic, Atmic, Anupadaka, and Adi planes to find out that everything is not this physical matter.The most massive world is this world and that's why this rules that we discover fits it. It's like a kindergarten kid complaining and saying is this all we have got?!!If you believe that this world is the only thing we have then I can't argue because our logic is different,sorry.

"A man who would not act, when he has the ability to rescue his own child from dying, is considered bad in our society."

yes if dieing is the end of everything I agree with you

sorry for the mistakes again:shoutI hope i transfered what i wanted to say!

 

[LooseEnd]

If you believe that this world is the only thing we have then I can't argue because our logic is different,sorry.

You are right. There's no point in us arguing. Not because I believe this world is the only thing(I do not believe such a thing). But either you fail to see my point or I fail to see yours, but we are not going anywhere. I see that you fail to understand very simple facts and say the same thing over and over. But to give it a one last try, my point is,

Someone who is perfect and who can create perfection, will not create something imperfect and allow suffering for his children, unless he is bad. My point GOD is bad.
If the world is at its best today, and if someone still created it, he is not perfect, he has no power over what's happening, in fact he never created anything. Or if he has power over what's happening, he is BAD.
Someone who is as BAD as being responsible for Murders,Rape,Wars,Hitler certainly has no intention of doing good for others, in any sense we understand.

 

[Mr Cheese]

If I give you a bag of candy, it is a good thing because you have candy
If I give you 5 tons of candy it is a bad thing as it is a bothersome large pile

If I give you food that you are allergic to and you vomit, it is bad
If I give you food that you are allergic to and you vomit, it is good as it allows you to know not to eat that again.

Conclusion: Good and Bad are inseperable, one man's meat is another man's poison.
Thus God is good and bad.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If something/someone has the power and freedom to stop an action, and they choose not to, then, logically, they want that action to occur - or don't care about the action one way or the other. If a god, in fact, has the power and freedom to stop your suffering, and you suffer anyway, then, logically, god wants you to suffer - or possibly just doesn't care about your suffering one way or the other - in which case, this god certainly wouldn't love you either.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Imagine we lived on a world like this:

- no Earthquakes , no Hurricanes,Tsunamis and whatever you count as a disaster!
-No killing .no murder,no rape,no cruelty,no abduction,no fears and and whatever you name Bad !
-everything great,perfect and smooth! you imagined food and it appeared in front of you! you wanted to go to another place thousand miles away and you were there by a blink! you could like whatever you loved and it was there when you decided.

Ok,here we go:
1- those who wanted to kill would have said we love to kill we have decided to be a genocidism!! why is this world imperfect damn!God is evil
---what's your answer for them?
2- there will be no science knowledge or even moving towards improvement because everything is perfect and we have what we want so why should we learn more.we know everything we live in an ideal world.
--- whats your Idea? is that good?
3-perhaps earth will explode with population because no one dies! people live more than a hundred year!They have a healthy life with no diseases no cancer and so on.
---- move,i want some space here!
?????? so why are we here in this cruel full of suffering world (if we assume it's that bad!) ?????
to grow to grow to grow.I don't mean our bodies,don't worry about them, they will grow automatically. grow up.Grow your soul!
How? by passing the exams,by testing yourself and finding out your capacity.God will give you the perfect world after death...This damn ****y world is not the place your looking for all the good things. get over it . find out what's your mission and go for it.
Just pass your exam well even if you don't get an A :rainbow1:
catch the chances and grow
so
yeh grow up!

Well, first things first. I am an atheist. I do not believe there is a God to blame. But people who DO believe in the Christian God certainly must admit that He wants them to suffer. And not just the suffering that makes people better. He wants two year olds to die of Small Pox. He wants pediatric cancer wards to be full. He wants loved ones swept away to drown in a tsunami. Do you disagree?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Did you miss the "future lives" bit?

Everyone and everything suffers. Why should humans be spared suffering when all other forms of life suffer? Why should human mothers be spared the horror (and I do mean horror, by the way) of their children being torn away from them and killed when deer and elephants and dolphins and rhinos and wolves and all other animals have to suffer the same things? Heck, we are the sole cause of suffering for most other animals.

Why should we be spared suffering?

I see. So you believe God does not favor us over the salmon who gets eaten by the bear?

 

[Beaudreaux]

God didn't "make" it that way; it's always been that way.

A sage once said that there is but one thing God cannot do: separate himself from us.

God did not create this world?

 

[other-side]

Someone who is perfect and who can create perfection, will not create something imperfect and allow suffering for his children, unless he is bad. My point GOD is bad.
If the world is at its best today, and if someone still created it, he is not perfect, he has no power over what's happening, in fact he never created anything. Or if he has power over what's happening, he is BAD.
Someone who is as BAD as being responsible for Murders,Rape,Wars,Hitler certainly has no intention of doing good for others, in any sense we understand.

( * )Do you believe in the existence of soul? in afterlife?
if not I will agree with you,feeling that God is bad and is powerless when he cant manage the bad things is obvious when you don't believe in them.I guess we should change the discussion to "is this the last place we are going to live?"

If I give you food that you are allergic to and you vomit, it is bad
If I give you food that you are allergic to and you vomit, it is good as it allows you to know not to eat that again.

Conclusion: Good and Bad are inseperable, one man's meat is another man's poison.
Thus God is good and bad.

well maybe the creator of that food had another plan!!maybe that food was not meant for him ! I,m allergic to coconuts but monkeys love them .lucky monkeys. so perhaps God is a good one for the monkeys and is a bad one for me your assumptions are not logical my friend!

If something/someone has the power and freedom to stop an action, and they choose not to, then, logically, they want that action to occur

no problem with that!

then, logically, god wants you to suffer

rape?murder?torture?cruelty? assume that God didn't let them happen,then perhaps we were siting here making topics about God in RF asking "Is god Evil? I want to murder but he doesn't let me!":tribal:

He wants two year olds to die of Small Pox. He wants pediatric cancer wards to be full. He wants loved ones swept away to drown in a tsunami. Do you disagree?

check this article: Good Viruses

One virus that did make a huge difference though was the cowpox virus. It was because of the cowpox virus that you can be vaccinated against lots of nasty diseases today!

see,it could be same for the smallpox!
​

listen to an example:
the gravity rule says that earth will attract everything towards itself.
a baby crawls on the roof while his/her parents don't notice that.he/she falls down and.....splash...blood everywhere. Now who or what is bad? gravity? baby's parents? the baby?

if your question is why did God create smallpox dangerous for humans,he could have made it harmless i should say read my answer the ( * ) above and we will discuss it later.

 

[LooseEnd]

( * )Do you believe in the existence of soul? in afterlife?
if not I will agree with you,feeling that God is bad and is powerless when he cant manage the bad things is obvious when you don't believe in them.I guess we should change the discussion to "is this the last place we are going to live?"

At the end just like everyone else you went for supernatural instead of logic. That's why if you read my first post(read it?),you'll see that I said answers like "You will realise this in heaven, or Bad things happen in this world for a greater good at the end" has no meaning. If you have read that I do not know why you answered me, when you obviously know that you don't have the answers I want.

Say I believe in existence of soul or afterlife (Yes I do not reject what I do not understand. But GOD is Bad, this I understand perfectly). Then your immediate response would be, you may rephrase this in another way, but in the end "Bad things happen in this world for a greater good at the end." Why are we wasting our time, for you to explain something I already have heard thousands of times before. I was looking for a more logical answer. But thanks. My questions still stands for anyone with a different approach.

But we can further discuss some of your ideas on the topic of GOD.