Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you but I have been swamped since I am also posting on another forum now. I saved this post and your other one in a Word document so I would not forget, not that I would forget you, my favorite atheist.
Well you are my favorite Bahai, so that is good
The reason everyone does not get to heaven is because even though God does not make any demands on us, there are requirements; humans are the ones who decide if we get to heaven or not, and we do so by our own faith and conduct.
Who decided those requirements?
I fail to see a huge difference between God demanding something in particular from us compared to him setting requirements for getting into heaven. Can you give an example of where this is not ultimately the same?
That is true, we were all created in God’s image, but after we were created we had to choose between good and evil, because we have free will.
I think we talked about this as well a long time ago, so can only echo what I said back then. Saying that we have a choice is really not true or at least it is such an unfair choice that its outright stupid.
Its like me giving you a choice....
1. If you cross the bridge, you will be happy for eternity.
2. If you don't cross it, you will suffer for eternity.
Now make a choice?
Its plain stupid, if God exists, he would instantly be able to figure that out. But also able to figure out that humans would as well. How you can defend it by free will is a true mystery to me.
There is only one Messenger sent every 500-1000 years because only one is necessary to get the job done that God wants to get done. There could be another Messenger 1000 years from when Baha’u’llah declared His mission, but no sooner. That will depend upon what God deems necessary for humanity.
I don't get, how you can not question the validity of that? If you look at it from the outside, Lets say a human life in general is approximately 85 years on average. 500 to 1000 years? between God caring to communicate with us? Looking at the last 4000 years of religion and how little have happened, taking into account that God have communicated with us, you have pretty much all religious group harming each other and non believers as well, because the messages from God is so unclear that no one seem to be able to figure them out. And now we have to wait another what 800 years? Seriously? And by that time, another messenger might come, what if that person is a native indian, an Eskimo which live in a remote area and hardly anyone on Earth understand their language... the whole setup really doesn't make a lot of sense. It is so convenient the way it works, that one would assume that humans came up with it.
You are right that there cannot be more than one Messenger of God sent at a time, because it would be confusing if they contradicted each other, but also it is not necessary to have more than one at a time.
Exactly, but if they were directly instructed by God, there ought to be no confusion at all, it would be like having 10000s Baha'u'llahs all around the world, completely independent of each other saying the exact same things. And even then it would be near impossible to believe that they were actually messengers of God. But at least it would be a lot smarter move by God, if he wanted to communicate with us.
The only reason one could really argue why there would be so many contradictions, is because they would not be send from God, Therefore it is conveniently claimed that there can't be another messenger before another 1000 years have passed. Just think about, how amazingly lucky it is that God's capabilities are not able to handle more than one messenger at the time. While at the same time, the person chosen to be this messenger can't proof it. To me it almost sounds to good to be true.
Why would God do that? Why do we need more than one Messenger if that Messenger receives and relays to us everything God wants us to know at that time in history? God could do any of what you said but the reason he doesn’t do it is because He does not want to do it because we do not need the answers to those questions and we do not need miracles since we have been given a brain to figure things out and heal our own sick.
We need more messengers and proof of people claiming this, due to simple validity of what they claim. Throughout all of human history and even today, people have scammed each other into believing things that are not true.
And time after time, people never seem to learn to demand evidence for these claims, which is why people constantly gets caught up in these things.
Don't get me wrong, because most religious people are well aware of this and will just as any atheist, shake there head when they hear about some people getting caught up in some religious sect, which uses the exact same methods for manipulating people as religions does. But at no point does it seem to occur to them that they are doing the exact same thing, just under the name religion.
You convince people that something is true and that they can trust this due to faith.
You fill people with false hope, if they just commit to it. And when it then doesn't work, its not because of God, its because they failed or didn't pray enough.
You convince them that out of all the 10000s religions that have been on Earth throughout time, that
they against incredible odds, happen to submit to the right one.
In the end, people no longer question what they believe, instead they spend so much time trying to fit things together that clearly doesn't, that it doesn't even occur to them to stop up and maybe question the whole concept to begin with.
So lets say that throughout history, there have been 100000 religions. You choose to be a Bahai, that basically mean that 99999 of all religions have been wrong. How incredible lucky is that
And then you ask a Christian and they funny enough reach the exact same conclusion and so does a muslim, JWs.
So based on the mere fact that this is clearly the case, the most obvious approach to
any religion is that they are not true. And therefore it is crucial that they can provide evidence, that are far more comprehensive than simply a person claiming to be something. To me, that people are so poor at demanding and understanding evidence, must be the biggest miracle or mystery in human history so far. It makes so little sense to me.
And as I have also mentioned to you before, this seems to only apply to superstitious and religious belief. I have never seen or heard anyone reasoning in such manner, besides with these topics. To me its like people just switch off common sense and flow with whatever.
The first thing that you and many atheists do not understand is that just because God CAN do anything that does not mean God DOES do everything God CAN do. The second thing is that God only DOES what God chooses to do, and that will never be what humans want God to do unless that aligns with what God wants for humans.
Again as I said in the last reply, then screw God.
He didn't help us during WW1 or 2 or any other war, that have caused suffering to millions and millions of people, the spanish flu, The black death and other natural disasters, he doesn't help people that are sick or starve... so what exactly is he doing. Absolutely nothing, so God chooses to do nothing, besides sending us a messenger to spread confusion every 1000 year... so seriously why even bother with him? Why do you care about God in the first place?
You are right that is what happens with God’s Messengers but that is not God’s fault or the Messengers’ fault
Remember what I wrote just above? Ill quote it here again.
"You fill people with false hope, if they just commit to it. And when it then doesn't work, its not because of God, its because they failed or didn't pray enough."
This is exactly what all religious people does, there is always someone or something else to blame, never God, Jesus, Baha'u'llah etc. Always our fault, despite me just pointing out above, that God have done nothing to help us. If he cares about us and is all powerful, and chooses not to help, that makes him evil!!.
For example, we can see the message that Baha’u’llah delivered 150 years ago – the unity of mankind – coming to fruition right now, because of this pandemic. You see, whatever God wills always comes to pass, and since the Messengers represent God’s will, their will is always followed.
This is not going to fly Trailblazer
You are seeking and making up explanations that makes no sense and have absolutely no credibility. You do not need to be Baha'u'llah to be able to figure that out. I can tell you right here and right now, that we will have another one in the future, that we will have wars and terrible ones, and also we will have natural disasters, worse than what we have experience so far.
Will you give me credit as a messenger of God, when all these things come true? or is it absolutely obvious given the history of humans and Earth, that these things will happen at some point?
If you will not give me credit as a messenger of God or at least as being equal in predicable power to Baha'u'llah. Why then credit him for it, as if he did something special and not me?
Jesus had already completed His mission before he was crucified, and being crucified was part of His mission. Sure, nobody back then listened to Jesus just like not many people are now listening tom Baha’u’llah, but eventually the message of Jesus took hold and the same will happen with Baha’u’llah.
Just wondering, so lets assume that it will be around 800 years before the next one, do you imagine that God is just sitting there looking at us and thinking "That didn't go as planned. I thought Baha'u'llah would have done a lot better."
Again, it is not about capability, it is about what God chooses to do, and since God is All-Knowing and All-Wise God has to know the best strategy.
So lets get some things on the table then. So disregard the messengers, what would you say that God have done, that is not directly the result of humans intelligence? (Meaning any cures for disease etc, that have been discovered by humans etc.) How can we see the effect of God on Earth?
But this solution has worked for most people, and that is why most people are good people, not rapists and murderers.
It didn't work for the victims or their families either. Which were innocent, not to forget.
Of course if God exists, God cannot be incompetent. Why would you throw out all religious texts?
Because they make him incompetent, im sorry its not a lot different than what you are doing. Saying that he can't do this and that, because that not how he works, first of all how do you know? (Guess its from Baha'u'llah) Secondly, constantly claiming that God is all good and all powerful, and then adding one limitation after another on him, simply makes him incompetent. The way he choose to do things, like with the messengers. And again it doesn't just apply to Bahai, its to all of the religions, that I know of. Therefore I would throw out all religious texts, because they stink of human manipulation.
