Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe those verses are not necessarily about Heaven. Certainly a few of them are about Hell but the criteria is never about what a person has done but about whether the person is forgiven and knows Jesus as Lord
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Does God welcome everyone into heaven?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
I believe those verses are not necessarily about Heaven. Certainly a few of them are about Hell but the criteria is never about what a person has done but about whether the person is forgiven and knows Jesus as Lord
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Bible does not "teach" the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Bible contains stories that SAY that Jesus rose; bodily, but that is not a teaching, it is a story. The actual teachings of Jesus have NOTHING to do with the resurrection. I find it very sad that Christians minimize the actual teachings of Jesus, the wonderful parables, the Sermon on the Mount, in favor of the resurrection stories which have no bearing on their eternal life. Jesus never said that anyone has to believe He rose from the dead to gain eternal life.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Jesus never even said He rose from the dead at all, these are just stories men wrote about Jesus long after Jesus walked the earth. It is the Church that promotes these stories and that is because they have an agenda. Worse yet, the Church (not Jesus) taught that people had to believe that Jesus rose so they too could rise on the 'last day.' Jesus never taught any of this, it is all Church doctrine and it is based upon a misinterpretation of scripture.
Some Christians have figured out what the Bible really means by reading the Bible and interpreting it themselves, instead of just believing what the Church has always taught. You call them a heresy because they broke away from the Church but the irony is that they are the ones who actually follow Jesus and what He taught, and that is the basis for their belief.
“A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:
"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died."” 3
http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It was a hypothetical question, IF God and a heaven existed.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus said nothing about a free gift in those verses.
Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Jesus never said anything about the saved and unsaved people, and God does not divide people into two groups. Saved is a Church teaching based upon original sin, but Jesus knew nothing of original sin. Jesus taught that faith and works were both necessary to gain eternal life.
I beg to differ with you when you state that only those who receive the 'free gift' go on to help people. I know many atheists who help people and I consider them more spiritual than Christians who do what they do for a reward in heaven. There is nothing spiritual about expecting a free ride.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that Jesus was 'just a man' and I do not think that Christianity would even be a religion if Jesus has been 'just a man.' It would be a philosophy. I say that because 'I believe' that religion is based upon a revelation from God
I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God. A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man... If He was, there would be absolutely no reason to 'believe' Him at all. As a Manifestation of God, Jesus possessed two stations: one was the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other was the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because Jesus had both a human and a divine station that He could act as mediator between God and man.
I believe that Jesus was a mirror image of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. As a Manifestation of God, Jesus was another order of creation above an ordinary man. He had a 'universal divine mind' that is different than ours, and that is why God was able to speak to Him through the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that God speaks to ordinary human beings because they would not have the 'capacity' to understand communication from God.
So that is what I believe about the nature of Jesus.
I do not believe that verse above is promising the Holy Spirit to the disciples, I believe it is referring to a future time when the Father would send the Holy Spirit to another man who would teach all things and remind everyone of everything Jesus said.
According to my beliefs, the Advocate/Comforter is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit, but the Advocate/Comforter can also be thought of as the Holy Spirit since it is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit when He sent Jesus. Then later God sent another Comforter in Jesus' name.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The Church teaching is that the Comforter and Spirit of truth are the Holy Spirit that was sent to the disciples at Pentecost, but that makes no sense, because the disciples did not do all of the following things that it says the Comforter and Spirit of truth will do in these verses: John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:8,13,14
- Teach you all things
- Call to remembrance what Jesus said
- Testify of Jesus
- Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
- Guide you into all truth
- Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
- Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
That is true, the Holy Spirit came to them on the day of Pentecost, but that does not mean that the verses in John 14, 15, and 16 are referring to the Day of Pentecost.
In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have this account that indicates the Holy Spirit was to be sent by God AGAIN in the last days.:
Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
All he prophecies in the verses above have been fulfilled and they are the same prophecies that are given by Jesus in other verses that are noted below. This is the evidence that shows us that the Son of man has already returned.
Rev 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
That is true, but the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and there is no reason God cannot send it whenever He decides it is necessary.
That is true, because a True Prophet of God would know everything God revealed to Him.
I fully agree, but what if someone came who has indisputable and convincing proof from the Bible that he was who he claimed to be?
Too late for what? What is over?
It is not over unless the prophecies for the return if Christ and the Messiah have been fulfilled.
Is there any evidence that 'the c=same man Jesus' has returned and fulfilled those prophecies?
That's true, there are many prophecies that refer to 'others' and the others who would come did not come during the biblical age. They were the Manifestations of God who came much later. Their names were Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I think Jesus coming to save the lost is more appropriate.
The lost and sinners viewed in the stories Jesus told as 'a precious lost sheep", "A valuable lost coin" and "a beloved lost son" so it depends what you mean by welcome. There is a longing and offer on one level.
Does everyone make it to heaven?
No.
Good-Ole-Rebel
*banned*
So odd. The Bible records the resurrection of Jesus Christ. His disciples teach the resurrection of Jesus Christ. But you say the Bible doesn't teach it because it is just stories.
OK. If it's just stories the Bible doesn't teach anything. So why do you believe the Bible...as you say...but you don't?
Your go to quotes from another mean nothing unless you can explain.
Good-Ole-Rebel
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
man·i·fes·ta·tion
/ˌmanəfəˈstāSH(ə)n,ˌmanəˌfesˈtāSH(ə)n/
noun
an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea.
"the first obvious manifestations of global warming"
the action or fact of showing an abstract idea.
"the manifestation of anxiety over the upcoming exams"
Similar: display demonstration showing show exhibition presentation indication illustration exemplification
exposition disclosure declaration expression profession
a symptom or sign of an ailment. "a characteristic manifestation of Lyme disease"
Similar: sign indication evidence proof token symptom testimony
The book said they did and you say they didn't. That is a bold thing to say.
That is new.
Have you seen angels from heaven who will gather the Son of Man's elect from the four corners of the world?
The prophecies are being fulfilled and and the signs were fulfilled.
That is why we know, we are living the last days.
I believe one of them had 11 wives and one is a 9 year old?
Talk about - you will know them by their fruits [deeds]
Or is it is just a perk?
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Zephaniah 1:3 New International Version (NIV)
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”
“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
JW must have hidden this from you.
3 “I will sweep away man and beast.I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,+And the stumbling blocks*+ along with the wicked ones;And I will remove mankind from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/zephaniah/1/#v36001003
The earth remains forever - sure kiddo.
But mankind is doomed leaving the earth bare.
2 Peter 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
cataway
Well-Known Member
just wondering why you did not also use Zephaniah 1:4,5,6,and 7Zephaniah 1:3 New International Version (NIV)
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”
“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
JW must have hidden this from you.
3 “I will sweep away man and beast.I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,+And the stumbling blocks*+ along with the wicked ones;And I will remove mankind from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/zephaniah/1/#v36001003
The earth remains forever - sure kiddo.
But mankind is doomed leaving the earth bare.
2 Peter 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I will try to explain this as best I can. First, the gospels are not authored so it is not known if the disciples actually wrote the gospels, and second, even if some of the disciples wrote them that is not proof that the stories are true.
You are talking as if the resurrection stories are the entire Bible, but they are only part of the Bible.
The Bible is about more than the resurrection. Everything leading up to the resurrection was the mission of Jesus but I believe that Jesus died on the cross and His spirit/soul was raised to heaven. At that time Jesus said "It's finished." That means that Jesus' mission on earth was finished, but then later men wrote stories and tried to bring Jesus back to life, and then Christians came to believe Jesus ascended into the sky, and will return the way He left, all because of two verses (Acts 1:10-11) that were misinterpreted.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Because that refers to Judah [a tribe in Israel - which is a very very small part of the human race which we are not even a part of]
I am referring to mankind. [human beings considered collectively; the human race.]
Zephaniah 1:3 New International Version (NIV)
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”
“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
1 Thessalonians 4:13 New International Version (NIV)
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
You need glasses and a dictionary would help.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I know that, because the Christ Spirit has returned as Jesus promised it would.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Problems... The disciples are speaking in the different languages of the people around them telling about the wonders of God. Some of the people joke and say that they are drunk. Then Peter says that they are not drunk but what is happening is a fulfillment of what the Prophet Joel had said... all the sun and moon stuff. You use the prophecy as if it was meant for another time when the Holy Spirit is sent. So can you see how it is used by Peter as a prophecy of this event?
Another problem... Peter says that God raised Jesus. That he was freed from the agony of death. That death could not hold him. That his body will not see decay. That David prophesied about the resurrection of the Messiah. That God raised Jesus to life and Peter and the disciples were witnesses to it. That Jesus sent the promised Holy Spirit and the pouring out of the promised Holy Spirit is what the people were seeing that day.
I know you probably don't agree. But why not? This is not the "Church's" interpretation. This is what these verses seem to be saying. So how do you and the Baha'i Faith interpret these verses?
Acts 2:14-41 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
25 David said about him: “ ‘I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.
31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.
33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
25 David said about him: “ ‘I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.
31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.
33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So would it be fair to say that you and the Baha'is do not believe the Biblical story of Adam. Yet, the Baha'is believe that there was such a person named Adam? And is it the Baha'is that say humans evolved all those years ago? Or, are those numbers yours and just an estimate? And, Don't Baha'is believe that God, at some point, created all living things along with the planets and stars and everything? But God didn't create humans? He let them evolve from what? Amoebas?
Yet, as I recall, Baha'is believe humans were always destined to be human no matter what they looked like. But how about spiritually? When they looked like an ape, did they have a soul/spirit? If not, then did they only get a soul/spirit when they finally looked human? And, how many apes, all of a sudden, turned human? Could there have been just one male and female pair? And, yes, you've opened another can of worms. You're welcome to just say that you don't know. But, if there is a Baha'i answer, then please let me know. Thanks.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am only going to interpret the verses that I think I know the meaning of. I do not know how other Bahais interpret these verses.
Acts 2:
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
How I interpret the verses above is that the prophet Joel was saying that in the last days, which is when Christ returns, God will pour out His Spirit on all people. Wonders will be seen in the heavens and on the earth below, the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon to blood, and then the Lord will come, and then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord, everyone who recognizes and believes in Him, will be saved. As you know, I believe the Lord was Baha'ul'lah, He was the Lord of Hosts mentioned in the OT.16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Regarding being saved, as you know, Baha'is do not believe in original sin, so there is nothing to be saved from, so what saved means to a Baha'i is to have near access to God and be among God's favored ones. The way we gain near access to God is s to recognize God's Manifestation when He appears in every age.
“Drink with healthy relish, O people of Bahá. Ye are indeed they with whom it shall be well. This is what they who have near access to God have attained. This is the flowing water ye were promised in the Qur’án, and later in the Bayán, as a recompense from your Lord, the God of Mercy. Blessed are they that quaff it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 46
“Blessed art thou, O My name, inasmuch as thou hast entered Mine Ark, and art speeding, through the power of My sovereign and most exalted might, on the ocean of grandeur, and art numbered with My favored ones whose names the Finger of God hath inscribed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 302
Below is an excerpt from Thief in the Night by William Sears which addresses the same prophecies we see in Acts2.
The Books of Isaiah, Joel, Daniel, Zechariah, and the New Testament of Christ Himself, had all foretold that these things would take place. Following these events, the ‘great and dreadful’ day of the Lord would appear, and then the Messiah would come, bringing the end of the world.
Some Bible scholars felt that all of these events mentioned in Revelation would take place in one great upheaval, and that the world as we know it would pass away forever. Most of them, however, felt that these three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would appear.....
“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
The Coming of the Son of Man
Rev 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matthew 24:29-30 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mark 13:24-26 ”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
As I am sure you know, Christians believe that the same man Jesus, who was resurrected, ascended into the clouds and will return from heaven in the clouds with power and great glory. Bahais have another interpretation.
To explain in brief, we believe that Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible (who was Baha’u’llah) will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.
Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. He devoted quite a bit of text to explaining what clouds means. To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ. Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded.
The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down in the physical clouds from heaven.... But I am sure you already know this since it is a basic Christian belief.
cataway
Well-Known Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is believe that Adam was the first Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion and that we are living in the Universal Cycle of religion which began with Adam. The present Universal Cycle of religion includes the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and the Baha’i Cycle (Cycle of Fulfillment). The Baha’i Cycle will last no less than 500,000 years.
41: THE UNIVERSAL CYCLES
There have been various Universal Cycles of religion since mankind evolved. Within each Cycle there were many different Prophets and many religions. There were many Universal Cycles that preceded Adam but they are too remote in history to know anything about.
“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 172
The Adamic Cycle was leading up to the Baha’i Cycle, laying the foundation, preparing the way. That was its purpose, as the purpose of every religious Cycle is to prepare the way for the Cycle that will follow.
Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last prophet in the Adamic Cycle and thus He sealed off the Adamic Cycle. The Bab ushered in a new Cycle of religion called the Age of Fulfillment. All the “new age” movements and all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the last century are the result of the inception of this new Cycle. We are living in a new age of mankind.
This question came up once on another forum, but I do not think there is an official Baha'i answer. My best guess is that as soon as the first human species evolved they were endowed with a soul/spirit. It did not matter what they looked like, they would not have looked like humans we see today.
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Humans first evolved in Africa, and much of human evolution occurred on that continent. The fossils of early humans who lived between 6 and 2 million years ago come entirely from Africa. Most scientists currently recognize some 15 to 20 different species of early humans.
Introduction to Human Evolution | The Smithsonian Institution's ...
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Zephaniah 1 New International Version (NIV)
1 The word of the Lord that came to Zephaniah son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hezekiah, during the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah:
2 “I will sweep away everything
from the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord.
3 “I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”
“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
Then....
4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will destroy every remnant of Baal worship in this place,
the very names of the idolatrous priests—
5 those who bow down on the roofs
to worship the starry host,
those who bow down and swear by the Lord
and who also swear by Molek,
6 those who turn back from following the Lord
and neither seek the Lord nor inquire of him.”
7 Be silent before the Sovereign Lord,
for the day of the Lord is near.
The Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
he has consecrated those he has invited.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
If you are aware that the signs are fulfilled and are being fulfilled then why in God's goodness would you still recognize another Messiah who was a polygamist and a pedophile?
This is what the Bible say about false prophets
2 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
