Does God welcome everyone into heaven?

[Trailblazer]

Before I do that, can I ask you what you believe about the writings of Paul?

I don't think Jesus would argue against Paul, do you?

I might agree with some things Paul said, but not everything.
I do not think that Jesus would necessarily agree with Paul.

You said: The physical body raised immortal is what is known by Scripture as "the resurrection of the dead". And Jesus spoke of it many times.

I want to know where Jesus said that physical bodies would be raised from the dead.

 

[LightofTruth]

We all have our own opinions.

Yep.

 

[LightofTruth]

I might agree with some things Paul said, but not everything.
I do not think that Jesus would necessarily agree with Paul.

When Jesus said "for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." What is the resurrection of the just he speaks of?

Wasn't Jesus resurrected from the dead?

Isn't that when he was made alive again and came out of the tomb?

Or do you think he wasn't dead?

 

[Trailblazer]

If God welcomed everyone into heaven, good and evil alike, how would he be a God of justice?

No, that would not be in accord with justice because we were given free will to choose between good and evil.

No, I think those among us who are truly evil just simply cease to be.

It is a Baha'i belief that all souls continue to exist but evil souls are far, far away from good souls so they can no longer do any harm.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isn't that when he was made alive again and came out of the tomb?

Or do you think he wasn't dead?

Or maybe he died and just stayed dead like a normal person.

 

[Trailblazer]

When Jesus said "for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." What is the resurrection of the just he speaks of?

I would need to see the full verse in the context of the chapter.

Wasn't Jesus resurrected from the dead?

Isn't that when he was made alive again and came out of the tomb?

Or do you think he wasn't dead?

I do not believe that the body of Jesus rose from the dead.
However, that does not address whether bodies will rise from graves after they die.

 

[Trailblazer]

Before I do that, can I ask you what you believe about the writings of Paul?

I think I know what writings of Paul you are referring to and since I have discussed these verses with Christians innumerable times, I already have my interpretation written up and saved in a Word document.

The following is what I believe. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

I do not believe that a physical body can come back to life after three days; that goes against all that is known by science. Moreover, even if such a miracle happened to Jesus, I do not believe that means that the physical bodies of all the believers that ever lived are going to come up out of their graves when Jesus returns. 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

I believe that 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death. The physical body was never designed to live forever, but the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

Thus I believe that eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of life, since all souls live forever.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[LightofTruth]

I would need to see the full verse in the context of the chapter.

I do not believe that the body of Jesus rose from the dead.
However, that does not address whether bodies will rise from graves after they die.

What's the purpose of discussing the context of Scripture if you reject most of it?

I don't view the Scriptures as something one can simply pick what he likes and leave the rest.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, that would not be in accord with justice because we were given free will to choose between good and evil.

It is a Baha'i belief that all souls continue to exist but evil souls are far, far away from good souls so they can no longer do any harm.

Malachi 3:21 (or 4:3 in Christian Bibles) and you shall trample the wicked to a pulp, for they shall be dust beneath your feet on the day that I am preparing — said the Lord of Hosts.

In order for this to be true, the wicked would no longer exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is what I was pointing at. Every soul is pure and refined. No further sanctification is required.

I do not believe that every soul has these characteristics.

It is not that the soul will become sanctified only by following Christiantity, Islam or Bahai religion.

I agree. I do not believe the religion one follows sanctifies the soul.

So why did Bahaollah say "Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power."

Because, according to Baha'u'llah, not all souls are pure. refined, and sanctified, as pointed out in this passage.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[LightofTruth]

I think I know what writings of Paul you are referring to and since I have discussed these verses with Christians innumerable times, I already have my interpretation written up and saved in a Word document.

The following is what I believe. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected; brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins. People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected) after Jesus had died and the disciples lost all hope.

I do not believe that a physical body can come back to life after three days; that goes against all that is known by science. Moreover, even if such a miracle happened to Jesus, I do not believe that means that the physical bodies of all the believers that ever lived are going to come up out of their graves when Jesus returns. 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: refers to rising from spiritual death, rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ, not to anyone rising from physical graves. Had the Cause of Christ not been brought back to life after three days, everyone would have remained in their sins and in spiritual death.

I believe that 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death refers to spiritual death. The physical body was never designed to live forever, but the soul is immortal so it can never die. Those souls who believe in Jesus have eternal life (everlasting life) because they are near to God; other souls who are veiled from God continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, but, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, they are nonexistent because they are separated from God.

Thus I believe that eternal life refers to a quality of life, gaining the rewards of the heaven, which are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Eternal life does not refer to continuance or duration of life, since all souls live forever.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

So after Jesus was raised from the dead he didn't show himself in a physical body to anyone?

 

[Trailblazer]

What's the purpose of discussing the context of Scripture if you reject most of it?

I do not reject it, I simply interpret it differently than you do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Malachi 3:21 (or 4:3 in Christian Bibles) and you shall trample the wicked to a pulp, for they shall be dust beneath your feet on the day that I am preparing — said the Lord of Hosts.

In order for this to be true, the wicked would no longer exist.

I do not interpret that verse literally.
Relative to those who gain eternal life, the wicked are as nonexistent (see last quote below).

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

 

[LightofTruth]

I do not reject it, I simply interpret it differently than you do.

When Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead he says they have spiritual bodies not spirits leaving bodies.

 

[Trailblazer]

So after Jesus was raised from the dead he didn't show himself in a physical body to anyone?

I believe that the resurrection stories were just stories men told. I am not alone in not believing that.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not believe that every soul has these characteristics.
Because, according to Baha'u'llah, not all souls are pure. refined, and sanctified, as pointed out in this passage.

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”

You are doubting the words of your manifestation of Allah, the 19 Century Iranian preacher, Bahaollah. The passage points that the limitations exists only in life and not after death. You are contradicting Bahaollah. The above condition was not mentioned in the previous passage. Though I do not think contradicting Bahaollah matters much. He was basically an uneducated person from Iranian hinterland who knew Arabic (a big qualification in Islamic countries) and about Bible and Quran. If this passage above is correct, then the passage quoted in previous post is incorrect. Where is the problem? Ddi Bahaollah said something which Allah did not intend him to say, or Allah himself flicked? I think that is the reason Allah had to send another messenger even in the life-time of Bahaollah, i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mahdi, of the Ahmadi Moslems. Bahaollah was wrong in calling Bab the Mahdi.

 

[Trailblazer]

When Paul speaks of the resurrection of the dead he says they have spiritual bodies not spirits leaving bodies.

I believe we have spiritual bodies after our souls leave our bodies.
I believe that souls go to heaven where they take on a heavenly form, a spiritual body

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

I believe we live forever in a spiritual body. A spiritual body is incorruptible. Here is part of a post I wrote to a Christian on another thread:

Baha’is say that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor: we are raised in a spiritual body and only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

This is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor: we are raised in a spiritual body and only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

(1st Corinthians 15:35) "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You said:
In (Rev. 6:16) at the Second Coming of Christ, the unbelieving know it is Christ and instead of turning to him for salvation, they hide from Him wanting nothing to do with Him.
I said:
I believe that is what has happened to most people.

To complete my statement, what I believe has happened is that at the Second Coming of Christ, the unbelieving, instead of turning to him for salvation, hide from Him wanting nothing to do with Him.

Granted, some people who know God exists still do not follow God, but that does not mean that atheists fail to follow God even though they know God exists.

It shows that in the end, it is not a question of 'evidence'.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[LightofTruth]

I believe we have spiritual bodies after our souls leave our bodies.
I believe that souls go to heaven where they take on a heavenly form, a spiritual body

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

I believe we live forever in a spiritual body. A spiritual body is incorruptible. Here is part of a post I wrote to a Christian on another thread:

This is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor: we are raised in a spiritual body and only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

(1st Corinthians 15:35) "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Don't forget, Paul is speaking of the resurrection of the dead. He is speaking of those who are dead and who are to be raised from the dead.The dead go into graves and when they are raised from the dead they are raised with spiritual bodies. They don't have to go anywhere to get that spiritual body because they are raised with it.

 

[Trailblazer]

It shows that in the end, it is not a question of 'evidence'.

I believe belief should be about the evidence.