Does He truly exist?

[Kavi]

God created Adam and Eve and threw them out of the garden because he was displeased with their actions, but he created Adam and Eve. Did he not know what his own creation was capable of? Did he not know their reasoning? If he knows that his own creation gives in to desires and wants, then why did he create them? WIth the story of Noah, God told him to build a boat (etc.) and killed off the entire world because he was displeased. Why would he kill off his own creation if he knew what they were capable of? If he wanted a creation in his image, then why did he not make them as perfect as He?

On the other hand, God supposedly created humans with free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in Him; therefore; another question arises. Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve. Why did he create us with these questions? Is it a test of faith? Or is it another reason? Why would He create us if he knew we would question His existence? Is the Bible just a book of laws and stories alone?

I am not trying offend anyone's beliefs, but I just have many unanswered questions that probably can never be answered; therefore, is why I remain undecided. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kavi :help:

 

[Bishka]

Kavi, PM Nutshell or SoyLeche, they'd be able to answer these questions a lot better then I would.

 

[Ormiston]

I don't know and I doubt anyone else does. But, while trying to figure it out, you might try asking one question at a time. A post like this causes people to go "Wow! Where do I begin!?" or "Try asking one question at a time."

 

[tmThEMaN]

i can't give a complete answer for such an important and complicated question.

But i believe that God created human beings and gave them free will. He also gave them knowledge about him (in a way or another) and a mind to think about wether they should believe or not.

God already had the Angels who are almost perfect. But they do not have the ability to do anything against his will. They only obey him and worship him all the time.
So creating the humans perfect would make them like Angels not humans.

God says in the Quran that if you worship him and pray to him everyday of your life and every second. It will not add anything to his power or perfection or anything else to him. He created us like that for our sake, If we worshiped him like he said we should we win, if we didn't we are the only losers in this.

That's why humans will enjoy heaven more than any other creatures god created, like Angels, Jin and others. Because unlike them, we worshiped it while it was hard to believe, unlike angels who can only believe.

And if God gave us an absolute proof that we cannot argue about his existence. Then it everyone would believe for sure. But instead God gave us some proofs that are sufficient to some people and others don't find them enough.

Again, it was just my thoughts, i think some onf the more knowlegable guys here might have better explanation.

 

[michel]

God created Adam and Eve and threw them out of the garden because he was displeased with their actions, but he created Adam and Eve. Did he not know what his own creation was capable of? Did he not know their reasoning? If he knows that his own creation gives in to desires and wants, then why did he create them? WIth the story of Noah, God told him to build a boat (etc.) and killed off the entire world because he was displeased. Why would he kill off his own creation if he knew what they were capable of? If he wanted a creation in his image, then why did he not make them as perfect as He?

On the other hand, God supposedly created humans with free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in Him; therefore; another question arises. Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve. Why did he create us with these questions? Is it a test of faith? Or is it another reason? Why would He create us if he knew we would question His existence? Is the Bible just a book of laws and stories alone?

I am not trying offend anyone's beliefs, but I just have many unanswered questions that probably can never be answered; therefore, is why I remain undecided. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kavi :help:

I'll answer the question, but I am not exactly 'conventional' in my thinking.

The Old Testament is a book full of parables, interspesed with what is supposed to be history. IMO the whole Adam & Eve story, the Garden of Eden is all a parable.

On the other hand, God supposedly created humans with free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in Him; therefore; another question arises. Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve. Why did he create us with these questions? Is it a test of faith? Or is it another reason? Why would He create us if he knew we would question His existence? Is the Bible just a book of laws and stories alone?

You have explained it pretty well here. The second part of your question "Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve." is, to my mind wrongly worded, because there is no hell. But I believe in reincarnation; yes, it is all about tests of faith. We are here (once or many times) to try and improve ourselves to the point that we will be good enough to be with him for ever.

To me, hell is having to go one re -living lives, being away from God. Heaven is being "at one " with God.

 

[Kavi]

Thanks, that really did answer my questions there! :dan: I really see where you guys are coming from.

 

[Master Vigil]

Have you studied Taoism? The one reason why I was drawn to it was because all of the questionable aspects dealing with "the divine" were no longer relevant. Because certain premises ceased to exist. For instance, take out the imperfect human qualities that could not exist in a perfect "essence", and all questions regarding "god's love" cease to be a problem.

I'm not trying to convert you or anything, just offering up some interesting reading material.

 

[Judgement Day]

God created Adam and Eve and threw them out of the garden because he was displeased with their actions, but he created Adam and Eve. Did he not know what his own creation was capable of? Did he not know their reasoning? If he knows that his own creation gives in to desires and wants, then why did he create them? WIth the story of Noah, God told him to build a boat (etc.) and killed off the entire world because he was displeased. Why would he kill off his own creation if he knew what they were capable of? If he wanted a creation in his image, then why did he not make them as perfect as He?

On the other hand, God supposedly created humans with free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in Him; therefore; another question arises. Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve. Why did he create us with these questions? Is it a test of faith? Or is it another reason? Why would He create us if he knew we would question His existence? Is the Bible just a book of laws and stories alone?

Truly excellent questions. I might not be able to answer it perfectly. I agree with tmThEmAn about the first question. Regarding the 2nd question, in accordance to free will, God doesnt punish us without giving us warnings first. If God has already given the warnings and humans still dont want to listen, then punishment has to be given. God has given people years of chances to listen to God, and this is quite enough time. Look at the stories about Lot and his people, Noah and his people, God has given them enough time, but they still wont listen. Free will is another reason for God to punish humans that dont want to listen. God doesnt punish someone who doesnt know about anything, but if we know and we ignore it, thats when God's punishment comes. Sorry if my words are confusing.

JD

 

[Squirt]

God created Adam and Eve and threw them out of the garden because he was displeased with their actions, but he created Adam and Eve. Did he not know what his own creation was capable of? Did he not know their reasoning? If he knows that his own creation gives in to desires and wants, then why did he create them?

Hi, Kavi. I believe that God created Adam and Eve to be the first parents of the human family. He placed them in the Garden of Eden and allowed them to be tempted by Satan (aka the Serpent). He knew perfectly well that they would succumb to his promise that they would be "like God, knowing good and evil." It was part of His plan that they be given the freedom to choose for themselves and then to experience the consequences of that choice. After they ate the forbidden fruit, God himself said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." God wanted them to be able to progress and He knew it would not be possible for them to do so as long as they existed in a condition where there was only good. In order to truly grow, we need to be faced with opposites. It is impossible for us to appreciate good health if we have never known illness. Similarly, we could not know true joy without also having experienced sadness. My religion obviously sees the Fall of Adam in a different light than most other Christians. We don't see Adam and Eve as a horrible man and woman who brought death to us all. We see them as a courageous couple whose decision ultimately brought life to us all, and with that life, unlimited potential for spiritual growth.

WIth the story of Noah, God told him to build a boat (etc.) and killed off the entire world because he was displeased. Why would he kill off his own creation if he knew what they were capable of? If he wanted a creation in his image, then why did he not make them as perfect as He was?

Jesus Christ said, "Be ye perfect." Perfection is the goal. It is something we should want to work towards and not just be given. God killed His creations because He had warned them time and time again to repent. Had He simply turned a blind eye to their disobedience, what kind of a God would He have been? He expects us to live up to the potential He has given us, that's all.

On the other hand, God supposedly created humans with free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in Him; therefore; another question arises. Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve. Why did he create us with these questions? Is it a test of faith? Or is it another reason? Why would He create us if he knew we would question His existence? Is the Bible just a book of laws and stories alone?

I don't think it's going to work that way. I think the only people who will be sent to eternal damnation are those who want no part of Him, those who actually choose damnation over salvation. I don't think He's planning to damn anyone over lack of faith. You've asked some excellent questions, and if I hadn't already spent about five hours today on this forum, I would probably be a whole lot more inclined to spend another hour giving you my point of view right now. Anyway, if you have found what I have said so far to be at all worth considering, let me know, and I'll try to get back to you within a day or so with a few more thoughts.

P.S. Great avatar! I LOVE IT!

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

I'll answer the question, but I am not exactly 'conventional' in my thinking.

The Old Testament is a book full of parables, interspesed with what is supposed to be history. IMO the whole Adam & Eve story, the Garden of Eden is all a parable.

You have explained it pretty well here. The second part of your question "Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve." is, to my mind wrongly worded, because there is no hell. But I believe in reincarnation; yes, it is all about tests of faith. We are here (once or many times) to try and improve ourselves to the point that we will be good enough to be with him for ever.

To me, hell is having to go one re -living lives, being away from God. Heaven is being "at one " with God.

Ah michel i could not have put it any better myself nice answer........:clap

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

Also what needs to be added is God came to us in physical form before the son in completeness as bhagavan vasudeva sri krsna thousands of years before jesus his beloved son to try and give us understanding of his nature and maya his secondary power (creation) so that thease questions would not plague us with terrible doubt he loved us that much, but we could not grasp it in order to understand, in krsna's(God) lila we see the total picture of how life should be played and understood, thru the bhagavad-gita he gave us the keys to understanding, but we still could not hold on, and in his sorrow and love for the world not just hindus he sent his first creation in the materal world his own maya, his beloved son(jesus=balarama) so that all may be saved and come home to Godhead.:hug:

 

[jewscout]

God created Adam and Eve and threw them out of the garden because he was displeased with their actions, but he created Adam and Eve. Did he not know what his own creation was capable of? Did he not know their reasoning? If he knows that his own creation gives in to desires and wants, then why did he create them? WIth the story of Noah, God told him to build a boat (etc.) and killed off the entire world because he was displeased. Why would he kill off his own creation if he knew what they were capable of? If he wanted a creation in his image, then why did he not make them as perfect as He?

On the other hand, God supposedly created humans with free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in Him; therefore; another question arises. Once again, if he knows that some wouldn't follow him, why send them into eternal damnation just because they disbelieve? He is the one who created us with the option to believe or disbelieve. Why did he create us with these questions? Is it a test of faith? Or is it another reason? Why would He create us if he knew we would question His existence? Is the Bible just a book of laws and stories alone?

I am not trying offend anyone's beliefs, but I just have many unanswered questions that probably can never be answered; therefore, is why I remain undecided. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kavi :help:

ok lets see here....
this all seems to go to a question of Free Will and G-d's plan.
This world, first off, was created imperfect for our benefit, that we might have the opportunity to make it better, to recreate, in a sense, Eden. Hashem (G-d) gave us free will, it is part of the Divine w/in us all, so that we may have the choice to better ourselves and all those around us.
as far as eternal damnation.............well i don't really believe that Hell exists so it's not really an issue for me

this whole life, everything we do, is a test for us. Which path will we choose, will we choose to be close to HaShem or not. That doesn't mean you gotta be a goody goody or anything but that you are aware of the decisions you make and the actions you take in THIS life. Don't worry about the next life since no one knows what's waiting for us, if anything. The thing that I believe HaShem wants from us is to make this world a little bit better than what we found when we got here. If you can do that, then i think you've done what you were meant to do.

 

[robtex]

It is interesting but alarming to an extent, to read the excuses the theists make for God's wrath. A onmipotent being does't get any excuses or afforded any slack. He's perfect by most beliefs and should be held to those standards to be consistant with the belief afforded to him. Secondly, actions speak louder than words and our existance is a prime example. Survival of the fittest, if there is a God, is a cruel and everpresant punishment for those lower on the food chain. Many animals under this system will die of starvation or be killed and/or eaten alive. My question would be, how much "free will" does an animal who runs on instinct have and why does your God find jusitifcation in their misery? Mankind isn't above survival of the fittest either and this year in poorer nations thousands will starve. Many of you who will have a relative or friend die a painful slow death by diese this year. The person will likey be someone you saw as a good person. The question in the origninal post was why would God create a man a certain way and than punish them for being that way? It brings up an excellent qoute by Gene Roddenberry qoute, "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." (source: http://www.atheistempire.com/greatminds/quotes.php?author=18) The fact of the matter is that everything on earth today yesterday and tomarrow will die. Many of the mammels will feel pain and much discomfort in an effort to die. Even if they get a blissful eternal afterlife they still got a death and many a very difficult one. If God created them to live and to die a tough death I would say this qualifies God as the greatest serial killer in the history of earth. Anyone who escapes murder by his peers can't escape the zeal and apparent need of God to kill because nobody lives forever. Incidently, in the Jewish/Christian tradition when Adam and Eve ate the apple they gained knowledge and wisdom of good and evil. The attainment of that knowledge was an unexcusable sin. To qoute the NIV from Biblegateway.com Genesis 2:17 God said, "But you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat it you surely will die." In Genesis 3:4 the serpant informs them " You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." God punished them for eating the forbidden fruit and attaining wisdom yet created mankind as a curious species and to add to the suspense put a tree in the garden and left knowing before hand, as he is proposed as all-knowing, that man was going to eat from it. Perhaps God has a strong need to torture and kill mankind but wanted mankind to take the blame for God's need for the taste of blood and violence. That is what I take from the garden of edan story.

 

[jewscout]

Perhaps God has a strong need to torture and kill mankind but wanted mankind to take the blame for God's need for the taste of blood and violence

or perhaps G-d desires us to rise above our baser desires of greed, lust, and power and take care of those who suffer, to spend our times developing cures for diseases and not the means to destroy each other. To live by words like these:
Ex. 22:20-21
And a stranger shalt thou not wrong, neither shalt thou oppress him; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.

we can make this world like Eden, but we have to act and have to choose to do so.

 

[robtex]

Jewscout no matter how much we embrace violence in this world we could never ever ever hope to kill nearly as many people and animals as God does annually. If we made the world a peaceful place and stopped killing one another we would all still be mortal, subject to death, many of which would be painful. Meaning if a God exists he would still be killing away day after day irregardless if we did or did not.

 

[jewscout]

Jewscout no matter how much we embrace violence in this world we could never ever ever hope to kill nearly as many people and animals as God does annually. If we made the world a peaceful place and stopped killing one another we would all still be mortal, subject to death, many of which would be painful. Meaning if a God exists he would still be killing away day after day irregardless if we did or did not.

that's just a sad fact of being attached to this corpreal world, we are born, we live a little while, and then we die. But we do, in many ways, live on. Through our children and family and friends, through (hopefully) good deeds that we did when we were on this earth.

And for those who believe there is something after this life. Most faiths have a belief in some sort of afterlife, as a piece of us, our soul, will continue on as well.

but getting back to what you were saying...G-d's need to do this or that.
i don't believe that G-d needs anything, all things are for us and our betterment, even death.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Well, in short, I totally agree with what Rob said.

Kavi,

It just doesn't seem that there is any Abrahamic God, and if there is, it sure seems he doesn't care to make Himself known, or to do much if anything about the suffering on this Earth.

There are myriads of muddled, and often intellectually dishonest answers to the 10 or 11 questions you posed in the start of this thread. I say intellectually dishonest because assuming the existence of an omiscient and omnipotent God leads to so many logical fallacy's one could literally write a book in answering your questions using the "God did it" type of logic, and all the problems that are associated therewith.

The simplest answer to all of your questions (recall Ockam's Razor) is that there is no God, or gods of any sort. If you can hold that idea in your head for just a minute and take a look at the world around you, you will find that the world operates just about as one would expect if there was no all knowing and all powerful father figure up in the sky.

IF there is an omnipotent/omniscient diety running everything, then he no doubt is allowing massive amounts of cruelty to happen when he has the power to keep it from happening. He also has created billions and billions of souls over the millenia knowing full well (omniscience) that many of those souls are doomed to spend an eternity roasting in Hell's fire.

So, IF He exists, which is a HUGE if, then he made imperfect beings, who are going to suffer and die, and many of whom will suffer for all eternity in the afterlife when he had all the ability to make them perfect, and to have all of them live in bliss forever and ever, but He chose not to. He chose to make a difficult and treacherous existence full of pain and loss which many will suffer through only to have an eternity of torture worse than any one could experience on this dreadful plane of existence.

If a human had similar powers and created a cruel and painful world when he had the power to do otherwise, what would you think about him?

B.

 

[jewscout]

He also has created billions and billions of souls over the millenia knowing full well (omniscience) that many of those souls are doomed to spend an eternity roasting in Hell's fire.

and yet there are some theists who don't believe in Hell or eternal damnation and we worship the Abrahamic G-d as well
Holy Crap!

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

and yet there are some theists who don't believe in Hell or eternal damnation and we worship the Abrahamic G-d as well
Holy Crap!

Quite true, a fact of which I am well aware, but Kavi's OP seemed to be more concerned with the Heaven and Hell issue, don't you think? If we take Hell out of the equation, then we are not really addressing the issues which began this thread.

By the way, I like the Jewish idea of no Hell. I am well aware of the idea that Sheol is meant to be common grave, and frankly this makes a lot more sense than the Christian views of Hell strongly influenced by Dante. But that is a topic for another thread, and I was attempting to address Kavi within the context of his OP.

B.

 

[tmThEMaN]

~( And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind)
generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make
mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You
above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (God) said: "I know that
which you do not know." )~