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Does humanity need to reduce meat consumption?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...
The problem with fans of socialism is that
you see it as the goal itself, & dream that
it will solve all the problems. This has the
high costs of greatly curbing both liberty
& prosperity.

...

The problem is that you don't understand that there is no objective or universal single version of the bold ones. They are all different inter-subjective naratives and as long as you treat your versions as in effect objective, you can't differentiate between any other different versions, because you only understand it as possible for one version, yours and all other versions are the same, because they are not your versions.
In effect you use the fallacy of the excluded middle.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'll wager that my grasp of subjectivity
& objectivity is no less than yours.

Well, I remeber catching you in an understanding of poor people that was not correct for what is actually going on in some cases.
In effect your model is true of some cases but not all.
As for the 2 words you used above, they in effect work differently depending on where on Maslows' model of needs you apply them.
But that is sociology and psychology and not hard natural science.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You make some good points, particularly about the cruise ships, private yachts, and private jets - which should be banned long before anyone starts thinking about reducing meat consumption.

I would question whether it's all due to consumption or whether some of it is due to manufacturing of goods which aren't made in Africa or other places. People can only use just so much. For example, there's 7.3 billion cellphone users in the world. (3.12 Billion More Phones Than People In The World!.). They're not all from the West. But if there were fewer people in the world, all the resources used to manufacture these devices could be conserved exponentially.

Same with cars:

how-many-cars-in-world-2022-1000x500-1.png


Even if it's uneven like this, fewer people would mean fewer cars and decreased emissions.

When MIT made their doomsday prediction in 1972, the world population was less than half of what it is today. The world has never seen this many people at any one time.

I agree that the West should consume less, particularly those at the top levels of society. But I will never accept rationing imposed on the little people until the bigshots put their money where their mouth is.

To be honest, I think the people of Africa and other impoverished areas of the world should be able to enjoy the luxuries and benefits of these technologies. They should not be denied either.

The capitalists created this situation, so if they can't supply everyone in the world with the same amount of stuff, then they'll have to admit their mistake. They'll have to admit that they were short-sighted and foolish - and that they really didn't know what they were doing all along. They'll have to admit that they are unfit to offer any opinions or influence over public policy - and they will have to yield to the socialists who should take over and fix this planet. But the last thing they should ever be doing is telling the common people to consume less meat.
^^this^^ :clapping:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There's a common misconception that raising taxes to help others stifles an economy is generally not true. Tax money does not just disappear into thin air but ends up in projects and also to people in lower income categories that tend to spend a higher percent of their income and do so mostly locally.

When the former economics administrator in Sweden was asked how Sweden was raised from the ashes and better prospered in the latter 1990's, his response was to use just two words: "Higher taxes".
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
...is irrelevant.
Only the reality of how it turns out matters.

Well, early attempts at inventing the light bulb or the airplane ended in failure, but sometimes, people learn from their mistakes, persevere, and try again. We can't just give up trying to progress and improve the human condition. At least, we have to try. If we don't, then I guess nature will just take its course.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, early attempts at inventing the light bulb or the airplane....
Those things quickly reached levels of success.
Socialism never has.
Moreover, light bulbs & airplanes have never
starved millions of people, or conducted purges.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Yeah, it is all about the USA as you are both all of the world and not really in the world as you are so special. ;)
I'll have to wait for the English translation, I suppose. That said, have you been to a grocery store in the last, oh... 8 months? Notice any unusual trends when you get to the checkout?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I'll have to wait for the English translation, I suppose. That said, have you been to a grocery store in the last, oh... 8 months? Notice any unusual trends when you get to the checkout?

Yeah and that is all about Bidenomics for all of the world and for all the different causes. It is all Biden and nothing else.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Those things quickly reached levels of success.
Socialism never has.
Moreover, light bulbs & airplanes have never
starved millions of people, or conducted purges.

My only point was that some things take time to be truly workable. Socialism would probably work in a unified world, but a key problem was that they couldn't adjust to the geopolitical realities and the historical circumstances which they were dealing with.

There are reasons why things happen, but if no one is interested in a careful, forensic examination of why things fail, then we'll never learn from our mistakes.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
My only point was that some things take time to be truly workable.
You advocate trying something with a
record of complete failure by making it
worldwide. That would be a horrible
way to discover that it never works.
You need more than faith in a dream.
Get some reality there, bub.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Yeah and that is all about Bidenomics for all of the world and for all the different causes. It is all Biden and nothing else.
On this topic it's more about the financial illiteracy of those who are in power in MOST "western" countries. For example, in Canada, where I live, our Finance Minister has absolutely no financial background whatsoever, and yet she governs or oversees the Finance portfolio. In my own coutnry, the Deputy Prime Minister is also the Finance Minister, so this is a tremendously powerful person who is essentially an idealogue. So, yes, Biden and crew are worthy of blame in this mess, but so are many others. The kick in the head is that had the Republicans been in power they probably would have done much the same.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
On this topic it's more about the financial illiteracy of those who are in power in MOST "western" countries. For example, in Canada, where I live, our Finance Minister has absolutely no financial background whatsoever, and yet she governs or oversees the Finance portfolio. In my own coutnry, the Deputy Prime Minister is also the Finance Minister, so this is a tremendously powerful person who is essentially an idealogue. So, yes, Biden and crew are worthy of blame in this mess, but so are many others. The kick in the head is that had the Republicans been in power they probably would have done much the same.

Yeah, complaining is simple. What is your solution, oh wise one? ;)
 
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