Does Israel have a "right" to Palestine?

[Cassiopia]

There are many ways to get unbiased information. There are news casts from Arab countries in english. There are printed news one can read.

With the internet and the ability to access tv channels that come from other countries I suspect that those of us in the West are not as uninformed as you would think.

Sorry but you don't seem to get the point I am making. Sure those who have internet can in theory get news from where-ever they want; but how many actually do?
How many Americans regularly look at Arab or Chinese news channels which are also available in English? Isn't it more likely they stick to those channels they like and easily understand and assume that what is said there is true?
Do you really expect all people in Arab lands to learn English and make a point of checking their news from English sources?
And do you think that what is said in your preferred news media is always true or even close to the truth?

I live and travel in Europe where the news seems a little more liberal and comprehensive than what I have seen in America.
I have no doubt the news in Algeria or Palestine or Egypt is biased in favor of the cultural norms there. But so is all news; or at least most of it.

Godobeyer can only speak of what he has seen and heard, as can you. Hence a valuable opportunity to try and understand other perspectives.

 

[jazzymom]

Sorry but you don't seem to get the point I am making. Sure those who have internet can in theory get news from where-ever they want; but how many actually do?
How many Americans regularly look at Arab or Chinese news channels which are also available in English? Isn't it more likely they stick to those channels they like and easily understand and assume that what is said there is true?
Do you really expect all people in Arab lands to learn English and make a point of checking their news from English sources?
And do you think that what is said in your preferred news media is always true or even close to the truth?

I live and travel in Europe where the news seems a little more liberal and comprehensive than what I have seen in America.
I have no doubt the news in Algeria or Palestine or Egypt is biased in favor of the cultural norms there. But so is all news; or at least most of it.

Godobeyer can only speak of what he has seen and heard, as can you. Hence a valuable opportunity to try and understand other perspectives.

I do get your point, I just don't agree with it. I think where there is a will to understand the world one can and there are many places to find information.

As to the other perspectives most of the posters who have access to a variety of news outlets seem to have a balanced perspective and those who don't have a more narrow view.

Do I expect all to learn english and get their news in english? Absolutely not but I can only judge what I see and I watch a variety of news casts that give perspectives that are not just from my part of the world.

But what I see over and over is that much of what a few muslims are espousing as truth is propaganda that in my opinion is not accurate, and when they are confronted with another view it is denied.

There are always 2 sides to a story.

>>You said:
Originally Posted by Cassiopia
What is shown on the news in America or Germany is very different from what is shown on the news in Algeria. What we believe tends to be informed by what is normal in the culture that surrounds us.
This thread is an opportunity to understand other perspectives rather than dismiss them out of hand.<<<

I absolutely understood what you were saying.

 

[FearGod]

Jews in USA are asking Obama to end the Israeli occupation and to stop the settlements and even to stop the Aids to Israel,so as we can see fron the video some jews asking for giving back the rights for palestinians and they support Obama eventhough that his father was a muslim,if we all seek for peace,then life will be wonderful.


[youtube]prxMJ4EzPEw[/youtube]
Israelis to Obama: "Save Us From Ourselves!" - YouTube

 

[Shermana]

Jews in USA are asking Obama to end the Israeli occupation and to stop the settlements and even to stop the Aids to Israel,so as we can see fron the video some jews asking for giving back the rights for palestinians and they support Obama eventhough that his father was a muslim,if we all seek for peace,then life will be wonderful.


[youtube]prxMJ4EzPEw[/youtube]
Israelis to Obama: "Save Us From Ourselves!" - YouTube

SOME Jews. When you say "Jews" you act as if its the majority. These Jews are very very few and represent a very fringe minority. But what does that have to do with the OP?

 

[FearGod]

SOME Jews. When you say "Jews" you act as if its the majority. These Jews are very very few and represent a very fringe minority. But what does that have to do with the OP?

it do with the OP that some jews also support to give back the rights for palastinians as to stop occupation and settlements.

Regarding how many of them are in the world looking for peace,whether majority or minority,i don't even claim to know,but i am just supporting and find it great that some jews even if minority that they are supporting peace movement in the middle east.

 

[Flankerl]

So in short: You like them because they agree with you.

 

[FearGod]

So in short: You like them because they agree with you.

Yes,peace for all.exactly.

 

[Shermana]

supporting peace movement in the middle east.

Well of course there would be (more) peace if all the Jews were ethnically cleansed from Israel. There would also be (more) peace if Irael conquered the whole Middle East. There would also be (more) peace if China conquered the whole world. My plan to offer extremely generous grants and interest free loans to move Palestinians to their country "Jordan" would bring more peace too. If Israel nuked the whole Middle East there'd be more peace too. Same thing if Iran nuked the whole middle east. Peace that is achieved without fairness and justice is no real peace at all.

If your idea of "the peace movement" is "Kick the Jews out" well then how is that better than my plan to give the Palestinians a (very, very generous) monetary incentive to leave as a peace movement? Because you side with one side over the other and that's about it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well of course there would be (more) peace if all the Jews were ethnically cleansed from Israel.

There would be more peace if xenophobes on both sides were systematically repudiated.

 

[Cassiopia]

Well of course there would be (more) peace if all the Jews were ethnically cleansed from Israel. There would also be (more) peace if Irael conquered the whole Middle East. There would also be (more) peace if China conquered the whole world. My plan to offer extremely generous grants and interest free loans to move Palestinians to their country "Jordan" would bring more peace too. If Israel nuked the whole Middle East there'd be more peace too. Same thing if Iran nuked the whole middle east. Peace that is achieved without fairness and justice is no real peace at all.

There would also be more peace if there were less crazy bigots.

If your idea of "the peace movement" is "Kick the Jews out" well then how is that better than my plan to give the Palestinians a (very, very generous) monetary incentive to leave as a peace movement? Because you side with one side over the other and that's about it.

Since nobody in this thread has seriously suggested kicking the Jews out of Israel (except you) that argument is a bit redundant.

But using your logic, if peace is really what you want, wouldn't your plan make more sense if we gave the Jews money to move somewhere else since there are probably less of them in the region and so the whole plan would cost less?

 

[FearGod]

There would be more peace if xenophobes on both sides were systematically repudiated.

Hi Jay,

i agree with you and even the strange thing that both are cousins (semitic people)

 

[Shermana]

]There would also be more peace if there were less crazy bigots.

Good luck reducing that side from the Palestinians.

Since nobody in this thread has seriously suggested kicking the Jews out of Israel (except you) that argument is a bit redundant.

Excuse me? The Palestinians on both sides have plans to ethnically cleanse the Jews out of Israel, this is what the Hamas charter and the Al-Aqsa martyrs brigade (official governmental military wing of the PA) are declaring. By supporting the Naturei-Karta Jews, you are supporting their vision of handing over the land to the Palestinians. There is absolutely no indication that the Palestinians will NOT kick the Jews out. So whether anyone has indicated on this thread or not, that's the plan. If you disagree, educate yourself on the subject before replying.

But using your logic, if peace is really what you want, wouldn't your plan make more sense if we gave the Jews money to move somewhere else since there are probably less of them in the region and so the whole plan would cost less?

Why would the plan cost less? Keeping Israel would be far more profitable. Besides, the Jews are the ones who won the war the Arabs started, not the Palis. They would be the ones to dictate who goes where.

 

[FearGod]

There would also be more peace if there were less crazy bigots.

Since nobody in this thread has seriously suggested kicking the Jews out of Israel (except you) that argument is a bit redundant.

But using your logic, if peace is really what you want, wouldn't your plan make more sense if we gave the Jews money to move somewhere else since there are probably less of them in the region and so the whole plan would cost less?

Good point Cassiopia,no one asked to kick out the jews,or to kick the palestinians to Jordan.

 

[Cassiopia]

If you disagree, educate yourself on the subject before replying.

.

Meaning if I don't agree I must be uneducated?
Excuse me while I cry into my wine glass.

Yes there are Palestinians who want the worst for Israel. But despite the hardships they have often had to put up with there are many who just want to raise their kids and live in peace like anyone else. I think such people are probably still in a majority among the Palestinians.

Real peace will take all those boring things like time and diplomacy; and hard compromises on both sides.

 

[Shermana]

Meaning if I don't agree I must be uneducated?
Excuse me while I cry into my wine glass.

Yes that is in fact what I'm saying. I'm sorry if you find it offensive that I'm implying that you're not completely up to speed on the facts on the ground, but are you saying you do NOT want to see for yourself that they do in fact plan on kicking the Jews out on both sides? You don't need to cry if I imply that you're barging into a discussion and making critiques based on a lack of information.

Yes there are Palestinians who want the worst for Israel. But despite the hardships they have often had to put up with there are many who just want to raise their kids and live in peace like anyone else. I think such people are probably still in a majority among the Palestinians.

Well then they should consider a leadership change before any other negotiations take place, shouldn't they? Those who aren't politically connected would be very well benefited from my Jordan transfer plan, they'd see their wealth triple at least.

Real peace will take all those boring things like time and diplomacy; and hard compromises on both sides.[

Maybe you'd like to chime in on my 2-state solution thread, maybe you'll be the first person to actually suggest a feasible plan.

 

[Cassiopia]

Yes that is in fact what I'm saying. I'm sorry if you find it offensive that I'm implying that you're not completely up to speed on the facts on the ground, but are you saying you do NOT want to see for yourself that they do in fact plan on kicking the Jews out on both sides? You don't need to cry if I imply that you're barging into a discussion and making critiques based on a lack of information.

The situation in Israel/Palestine is immensely complicated, but I venture I'm as up to speed as you... At least...
My views are different and perhaps a little more comprehensive is all.
Oh and I have read your OP and at least the last few pages of this thread.

Well then they should consider a leadership change before any other negotiations take place, shouldn't they? Those who aren't politically connected would be very well benefited from my Jordan transfer plan, they'd see their wealth triple at least.

You've mentioned this to the Jordanian authorities have you and got the go ahead? 'Cos obviously you wouldn't be wanting to create another problem on Israel's doorstep would you? I mean, you do want the Israelis to LIVE in PEACE don't you? And I'm sure you want them all to be happy bunnies in Jordan too...

Maybe you'd like to chime in on my 2-state solution thread, maybe you'll be the first person to actually suggest a feasible plan.

Bin there, done that!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes that is in fact what I'm saying. I'm sorry if you find it offensive ...

To be perfectly honest, I find it offensive for any number of reasons, first and foremost being that it champions bigotry and parades it as Judaism, thereby validating the very worst characterizations made by the demagogues on the other side.

 

[Shermana]

To be perfectly honest, I find it offensive for any number of reasons, first and foremost being that it champions bigotry and parades it as Judaism, thereby validating the very worst characterizations made by the demagogues on the other side.

I parade as Judaism? You resort now to such accusations that I am portraying my views on this issue as Judaism?

According to "Judaism", (i.e. The Torah), you're supposed to offer your enemies in the Holy Land the option of surrendering into forced labor or total extermination. My (Extremely generous) Jordan Transfer plan would be a violation of this rule of Judaism now wouldn't it? Maybe I should rethink it to include indentured servitude as part of the Transfer if I want to be in line with Judaism.

Now kindly demonstrate where you get the idea that my views are being "parades as Judaism" or honorably retract and admit that you're just desperate for any personal smear you can make on me.

 

[credance]

there is no doubt that there are so many jews whom they lived there and have their property.
i think occupying never can be a reason for being owner of the land.

Palestinian refugees comprise of the largest and longest standing case of refugees and displaced persons in modern history. 2012 marked the 64th anniversary of the Nakba, the beginning of their ongoing cycle of exile and dispossession.

64 years on Palestinians all over the world are facing many desperate challenges. In Israel, Gaza, Jerusalem, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jerusalem, Libya, Brazil and across many other parts of the world, Palestinians are subjected to gross violations of their basic human rights.

Do you think the entire world is against Palestinians?
Why does the entire Muslim world reject them and keep them living as refugees until the Jews are removed or placed in a subservient position?
I know much more about Jewish history than I know about Palestinian history.
What qualifies one to be a true Palestinian?
Is it ancestry, religion, or the fact that they were born in a refuge camp?

You said Jerusalem twice. There is a place in old Jerusalem called the Temple Mount. You must be a Muslim to pray there. Many Palestinians are Muslim or at least abide by the law that says they are.
To the Jews, on a religious stand point this is their most holy site. Yet they are delegated to pray at the bottom of the Western Wall.
If religion causes hate it is of no benefit to men.

 

[Cassiopia]

I will wait for Jay to get back to you if he wants but there were a few things here I wanted to comment on

I arrogantly parade as Judaism? You resort now to such accusations that I am portraying my views on this issue as Judaism?

As somebody who is relatively new here I would be interested to know how you do define your stance if not by Judaism? And if not Judaism then why do you set such store in elements of Jewish scriptures as in the example below?

According to "Judaism", (i.e. The Torah), you're supposed to offer your enemies in the Holy Land the option of surrendering into forced labor or total extermination. My (Extremely generous) Jordan Transfer plan would be a violation of this rule of Judaism now wouldn't it? Maybe I should rethink it to include indentured servitude as part of the Transfer if I want to be in line with Judaism.

There are many things in the Torah which most people today don't take literally. Why do you?
What authority will you be claiming in order to ethnicly cleanse the Palestinians out of Israel?

I find anyone who insists on Israel doing absolutely nothing until the Demographic time bomb explodes offensive. I find those who (insultingly) criticize my solution who have no counter-solution offensive.

Again, nobody in this thread has suggested that Israel should do "absolutely nothing". Moreover I think everybody who has criticised your ridiculous Jordan plan actually does have other ideas, some of which they have suggested to you and you have ignored.

If you want to talk about your plan okay a few questions for you. Who is going to pay for the financial incentives to get the Palestinians to move en mass to Jordan? Who is going to support Jordan in accommodating all these refugees? I am not talking about who you think should do it for your own prejudiced reasons, I am talking about who actually would be able to do it in the real world in which we live?
In fact nobody would. In fact neither the Jordanians nor the Palestinians would accept any part of your crazy plan, as you well know. Indeed most sane Israelis would not consider it either.
So what next?
Clearly your so called plan becomes nothing more than an insane pretext to do something very aggressive and violent against the Palestinians.

I agree with Jay. The views you express are the very reason that extremists garner some support in Palestine. People like you are their justification for existence.