Walkntune
Well-Known Member
Yet Jesus broke it down to just two commandments and that is commandments of love that even a child can understand and man is still lost in a state of his own reasoning. Maybeit is mans reasoning that is in the way?
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Does it Matter that Hitler was a Theist?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
yes, love is the guiding principle behind the 10 commandments
And the easiest way to live by the laws of God is to practice love.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello FunctionalAtheist.
I don't think Hitler believed in any God. The fact that he was an alter boy, or that his family were christian did not seem to affect him, other than to teach him how to manipulate religion. Even keeping a bible would not make him religious; many RF atheist members keep and refer to bibles, and quote them in posts!
Hitler intended to close down all religions as soon as possible, and I think the Vatican was aware of this. Hitler may have enjoyed 'playing' with it. Hitler believed in Hitler.
You mention genocide, and then add that many muslim nations might like to 'give it a try'. I remember the reverse, actually, when the Bosnian-Moslem's neighbours turned upon them.
Hitler used every and any instrument to hand, to achieve what he wanted, (sometimes insidiously, sometimes with blitzkrieg) and now it seems as if some people want to make him into a christian, or whatever, so that they can fingerpoint? Sad. Sad!
There were no chapels or crosses in Hitler's lairs, I believe. I have no agenda on this, only an interest in the truth.
Hitler certainly wasn't known for going out of his way to discourage his troops from religious practice. The SS belt buckle actually claims God's blessing.
Nazi Army "GOD WITH US" Belt Buckle - Picture
It should also be noted that Hitler, far from an enemy of the Protestant and Catholic churches of his time's Germany, attempted to join them into an unified German Church and made his estimation for priests known even after the failure of that attempt. You will find some of those statements in the OP.
Also, it is no coincidence that the Swastika is a cross itself. The Nazis pretty much had their own faith emblem, which (except for the now historical meanings) wouldn't originally look at all much out of place along with these:
Available Emblems of Belief for Placement on Government Headstones and Markers - Burial and Memorial Benefits
I guess that proves they were a christian nation every bit as much as "In God We Trust" on our money proves that we are a christian nation.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
a judge as we know them do not interpret laws as such...they interpret how ones behavior violated a given law.
But with regard to mosaic laws, Im not an isrealite living under that covenant arrangement...so the laws that I apply to myself are only the laws of Christs teachings. Thats why i call myself a christian and not a Jew.
First, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about as far as the judiciary process is concerned. In a criminal case, there is a forum of 12 jurors of the accused peers that interpret if and how ones behavior violated a given law. In civil and administrative hearing hearings, the judge most certainly is concerned with hearing both sides of a disagreement and determining which elements of the argument are the better interpretation of the laws. Every single state and the federal government has entire codes describing the legal requirements of what criteria to use AS THEY INTERPRET the laws of the land. The simplest way to boil down the judges duty is to listen to TWO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS of the same law, and interpret which elements of each interpretation applies, judge witch applicable interpretations has precedence, and which prevails.
Second, it is your interpretation that mosaic law is not applicable to you. You have explicitly stated that. Yet the "you shall's" you quote all come from the OT mosaic law. What the hell are trying to say? Why do you even bother bringing up the mosaic law and pointing out that, in your opinion, those commandments need no interpretation, if they don't apply to you?
Thirdly, you seem to have no concept of evidence. In any of the 'sins' (not crimes) you bringup, it is highly likely likely that not all facts will be crystal clear. It must be nice to have such a black and white, simplistic, view of how easy everything is. Problem is if you were to try to use these laws without interpreting or judging anything using your own cognizant abilities, you would have to resort to something like, oh i don't know, tossing a bound accused into a river and asking the lord to show their guilt or innocence by letting the innocent drown and the guilty float. And can you tell my why in your world view that would not be more accurate than using human judgment? If your worldview is correct, surely we should trust god more than our own judgment. Therefore you are 100% justified in such actions.
Deny this all you want. It only makes you look more hypocritical when you then later say it's ok that the ancients committed genocide in god's name. There justification was exactly the same as the churches, and there reasoning is exactly the same as yours.
So now, I ask you to show me the commandments you provided above in the new testament. Where does Jesus tell you murder is wrong? If you are not bound by mosaic law, you have no business including it in discussions of your morality.
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
I agree. It would be the same as pointing fingers at science for the creation of gas chambers.Also for the atom bomb and nukes and whatever else evil threatens the world.Of course there is a way that seems right with man but in the end leads to destruction.Evil comes from the heart of man out of the lust for power,money, and control all of which the Bible and Christianity stand against.No one seeks truth. They just seek justification.
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oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Of course Hitler would not have upset any of his troops, religious or otherwise. It surely is not a good idea to rip away any form of comfort to troops during a war! Hitler worked manipulatively and insidiously, and would have ended religions when it suited him. It didn't suit him during the war!
Most armies seem to go into battle with the reassuring call of 'God is with us!', so I am not surprised if German armies had a similar 'call'. Hitler would have used any symbols that suited his ends.
That produces a question. Most of the (Western) allies had regimental padres, and other religious ministers, who stayed with or near to troops in action. Did the Nazis? I mean, Rommel may have insisted on religious ministers being with his forces, for example, but that would not make Hitler a God-fearing believer.
Why didn't Hitler have a religious minister with him at the end?
So far, I haven't read anything that convinces me that this monster believed in any God. He might have used other people's belief as an instrument, but ........ Nah! Don't think he was a believer!
Not quite so. Hitler did regularly upset his troops, to the point of motivating many of his own higher officers into organizing into a cabal that attempted to kill him many times, often with suicidal bombs.
Now, if you mean that he saw no point in alienating those of Christian persuations, sure, I will readily agree.
Hitler lacked the power to end religions, which is of course a very ambitious goal indeed.
More significantly, we have no evidence that he wanted to and lots that he saw himself as the sword of God.
While they were within his parameters of acceptability? Sure. Like any other politician. As it turns out, Hitler was remarkably non-accomodating. It was one of his main personality traits.
Notice also that Stalin, who _was_ not a Christian, did not pretend to be.
We can of course assume that Hitler only pretended to be a Christian, I suppose. But claim of Christian belief he did express all the same, and it was consistent with both his discourse and his behavior and personality.
I don't know that he did not. In any case, he had a Messiah Complex. Hitler was not a man to seek the approval of others. He demanded obbedience, not support. He would not feel greatly hindered by the lack of priest, not anymore than he felt hindered by the utter destruction of the very troops he demanded his officers to command regardless at the final days of the war.
There is a thread called "Controvery" around that has a lot of evidence. In a pinch, take a look at the Mein Kampf.
Really? He had all the markings of a psycho believer.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ohhh Whaat?!!
I just popped out into the good old world-wide-web thingy, for more info on Hitler, and 'The straight Dope' page caught my eye.
Well I never! Hitler was pumping christianity in 'My struggle' (can't spell the german!) so that when they started placing it in schools to replace the bible that the 'crossover' would not be too much of a culture shock!
And it mentions the SS forces' belt buckle, at the same time as explaining that SS forces were banned from christian worship.
Hang on....... here is part of the page:-
But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")!
Yeah right!
I just popped out into the good old world-wide-web thingy, for more info on Hitler, and 'The straight Dope' page caught my eye.
Well I never! Hitler was pumping christianity in 'My struggle' (can't spell the german!) so that when they started placing it in schools to replace the bible that the 'crossover' would not be too much of a culture shock!
And it mentions the SS forces' belt buckle, at the same time as explaining that SS forces were banned from christian worship.
Hang on....... here is part of the page:-
But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")!
Yeah right!
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello again! I think Nix meant exactly what you have just written......that the religious emblem on ss belt buckles meant as little (religiously) as 'I trust in God' on her coinage means. Ergo...... it proves nothing.
Your 2nd para:- OK...... your choice...... pick something from the bible which is absolute nonsense. No! Better still...... you could post a new thread about biblical nonsenses for us to debate. This thread is about Hitler's beliefs.
Dingbat
Avatar of Brittania
What about the SS belt buckle? It says, "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" maybe they are confusing it with the German Army buckle which said, "Gott mitt Uns" which had been on the buckle of the Germany army long before Hitler ever came to power.
What about Numbers 25 (1-13); Numbers 31 (1-19); Deuteronomy 20 (10-20); Matthews 10 (34-39); Luke 19 (27)?
Somehow I doubt Hitler would feel ill at ease with those parts of the Bible.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
I'm not surprised either. Only makes sense. No one would willingly go to war without some belife it was their godly duty, and if they died they would be rewarded for all their murders. It only makes sense through 'godly' eyes.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Martk 10:17 And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life? 18 Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God. 19 You know the commandments, Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother. (these laws are of the 10 commandments in Exodus 20)
Matthew 5:21 YOU heard that it was said to those of ancient times, You must not murder; but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice. 22 However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, You despicable fool! will be liable to the fiery Ge·hen′na.
(Exodus 20:13 You must not murder")
Matthew 5:27 YOU heard that it was said, You must not commit adultery. 28 But I say to YOU that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If, now, that right eye of yours is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you
(Exodus 20:14:14 You must not commit adultery")
Matthew 5:33 Again YOU heard that it was said to those of ancient times, You must not swear without performing, but you must pay your vows to Jehovah. 34 However, I say to YOU: Do not swear at all,...37 Just let YOUR word Yes mean Yes, YOUR No, No
(Deuteronomy 23:21 In case you vow a vow to Jehovah your God, you must not be slow about paying it, because Jehovah your God will without fail require it of you)
Ephesians 4:28 Let the stealer steal no more, but rather let him do hard work, doing with his hands what is good work, that he may have something to distribute to someone in need (this is one of the 10 commandments of Exodus 20)
Luke 12:15 Then he said to them: Keep YOUR eyes open and guard against every sort of covetousness (Exodus 20:17 You must not desire your fellowmans house. You must not desire your fellowmans wife, nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his *** nor anything that belongs to your fellowman")
Christians adhere to the moral laws as out lined in the Mosaic law. But not all the laws given to Israel were moral laws. Most of the mosaic law applies only to Israel...and it was only to apply to them until their Messiah appeared. Thereafter, they would be freed from the ordinances and requirements of that law which is why the Greek scriptures state: Colossians 2:13 "...He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14 and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake"
That is why Christians stopped participating in the festivals and sabbath observances and the eating of certain foods....those things are not moral laws. Mixing fibres, eating shellfish or pork etc are not immoral things to do...but they probably served a significant purpose at that time. But with the arrival of the Messiah, a new way to worship had been instituted. Gods moral laws were still the same, but what was now required of people was not.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
You believe, if Jesus said reminded someone of the mosaic law, that means it is a law for chrisitians? Is that correct? If so, does the same apply to what the other NT authors discussed?
And I'm sorry, but I am failing to see where the scripture states or implies that some of the laws were moral, and some were just good ideas at the time? But even if you can show me this is in the text, and not an interpretation, then it contradicts the idea that god's will = morality. God certainly did not want the ancients to eat shellfish, in fact commanded them not to. I know every christians has a different version, but doesn't that mean for quite a few that eating shellfish was a sin and immoral? Now if it was a sin, and immoral, then you claim it was not a moral law but someother kind of rule, then you do not compute.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
before the mosaic law was given to Jacobs sons, what did the servants of God observe? What dietry restrictions did they have? what sort of clothing were they wearing?
Genesis 9:1 And God went on to bless Noah and his sons and to say to them: Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth. ...3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU"
Before their was a mosaic law, the people had no restrictions on what sort of food they could eat. What does that say about food and morality?