Does it really matter if we believe in God?

[IndigoChild5559]

PART ONE.
Here are the prophecies Jesus never fulfilled:
1. He never brought all the Jews back to the land of Israel. (Israel as in the way of Jacob or Israel the place? It is through Jesus the Jews returned in the 1940's.)
2. He never ruled from Jerusalem. ( Did God rule in Jerusalem? Did he not enter on a Donkey was his rule Spiritual or worldly?)
3. He never ushered in an era of worldwide peace, as in nation shall not lift up sword against nation (none of this inner peace business).( You don't see a greater time of peace and Christ ruling
amongst men as saviour throughout the world?)

Hello my friend. Thank you for responding. I want you to know that I have nothing against Christianity or you being a Christian, or Bahai, or Buddhist, or whatever. A Gentile does not need to become a Jew in order to be a righteous person. The only time I push for someone to come into Judaism is when they are a Jew, because they have been born into a covenant, whether they will it or not, a responsibility to themselves, to the world, and to God.

1.I've never heard of Israel being called "a way of Jacob," so no. I said, "the LAND of Israel, " so yes, that's the place. And I'm sorry, my friend, but Jesus was no where on earth when Israel became a nation in 1948, or since, as the return of Jews to our homeland continues. You can give credit to God, sure. But any messiah that gets credit has to actually be here on the planet.

2. Did God ever rule on the throne in Jerusalem? Eh, no. ???? Does anyone ever answer that yes? Eh, no. Jesus may have had his own ideas as to whether he was the messiah and whether his kingdom was of this world or not. Don't care. The question is not what Jesus thought, but what God intended and revealed through the prophets. What the prophets spoke of is a Davidic King. This King rules the earth during the messianic era. There is no messianic era, and no King upon the throne. Thus, Jesus is not the messiah.

3. Firstly, NO, I don't see a time of greater peace. WW1 and WW2????? Are you kidding me? The atom bomb used in Japan? You think there was anything similar to that used during Jesus' time? Secondly, it's not supposed to be a time or relatively greater peace, a lighter grey, it's supposed to be a time of PEACE, when nation doesn't lift sword against nation. For the last 2000 years that has simply not been true. Jesus was an utter failure.

The bible was translated by Jewish scholars off the top of my head I believe st Jerome is mentioned. The Jewish scholars were very careful when translating the OT and they always referred to God/LORD in capital letters to ensure the person reading knew it was God they were referring to

The words in Hebrew are different. The word translated as LORD in all caps is the sacred name of God, which is out of respect for its holiness never put into print unless for worship and then only in Hebrew. Even when we worship, we substitute Adonai (Lord) for the yad hey and vav hey (how you spell the sacred name). There are other times in the Tanakh where Adonai is actually used, and you will see it written in regular case letters, rather than all caps. As I said, it could refer to God, to a King, to an overlord... There were other words that are translated as God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

PART TWO.
Hello again, brother. I am resolved to make this a much shorter length so as not to torture you.
There is no fence to Christianity because it is either accept Jesus as Messiah or don't.

Let's look squarely at what Christianity has been since at least the council of Nicea in the early 4th century. It is Trinitarian. You are not. But you are fiddling around with Christian ideas. You think that you can adopt the ideas of a form of Christianity that hasn't been around for 1700 years. It won't work, it has been rejected. There are other religions that believe Jesus was a messiah of some kind, but it is a different sort of messiah that the kind in the New Testament.

What I'm really saying is that there very much IS a fence between Judaism and Christianity. On one side is "Hashem Eloheinu, Hashem Echad." On the other side is "One God, three persons." By eschewing Trinitarianism but accepting Jesus as the Messiah and adopting the NT as your sacred texts, you are sitting on that fence. Come home, brother. We are waiting for you. Come home to Israel.

You say that Jesus is the Messiah. What is the evidence from the Tanakh? Give me your best shot.



Sid Roth and Rabbi Jonathon Bernis I have listened to and watched some of their programs.
But none can answer the 'Trinity' question, When I studied the history and found where Contantine incorporated Christianity into the Roman faith and gave freedom to practice that
a change was made. This is where I believe true Christianity was ignored and Rome once again tried to rule the world through hijacking Christianity to try and make it their own.
But like most Christianity cannot be taken by force nor can it be subdued into something it is not. Romans had worship of the black madonna and it was through this that Mary was given a higher place than truth.

Many things make up my beliefs but there are beliefs which were not part of Christianity and yet held in tenets of faith today.

I believe Christ said it best when he said.

19 “Sir, I can see that you are a prophet,” the woman replied. 20 “Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that the place where one has to worship is in Yerushalayim.” 21 Yeshua said, “Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. 22 You people don’t know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming — indeed, it’s here now — when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly.”

25 The woman replied, “I know that Mashiach is coming” (that is, “the one who has been anointed”). “When he comes, he will tell us everything.” 26 Yeshua said to her, “I, the person speaking to you, am he.”

In DUETERONOMY 18.
20 “‘But if a prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name which I didn’t order him to say, or if he speaks in the name of other gods, then that prophet must die.’ 21 You may be wondering, ‘How are we to know if a word has not been spoken by Adonai?’ 22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Adonai, and the prediction does not come true — that is, the word is not fulfilled — then Adonai did not speak that word. The prophet who said it spoke presumptuously; you have nothing to fear from him.

So far what Christ has spoke has come true and his words have spread across the world. But it is spirit and truth.

They seem to get longer with QUOTES. We appear to be writing a book. Shalom,[/QUOTE]

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that Jesus was “a Messiah” as He fulfilled some of the prophecies, but Jesus was not “the Messiah” who would fulfill the “Messianic Age” prophecies. Obviously, in order to be that individual, Jesus would have to return and fulfill those prophecies. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was “the Messiah” and the return of Christ. Obviously, he was not Jesus, but He was the return of the Christ Spirit Jesus promised to send:

Jesus never promised to return in the same body as Christians believe He will and that is why He never returned and never will. His body died, so His body cannot come floating down from the sky on a cloud from heaven. What Jesus promised to do was to send His Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter, Baha’u’llah was another Comforter.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

In short, the Spirit of Jesus, better known as the Christ Spirit, was manifested in another man. Baha’u’llah was that Spirit and He came with another name, just as the Bible prophesied in Revelation 2:17 and Revelation 3:12.

But the point is, if someone comes and fulfills all the prophecies of the messiah, we will accept him. Period. But he has to fulfill them all. He can't say, "Well I'm Chinese in this life, but I was born a Jew in my last life."

So, do you expect (a) ALL the prophecies to be fulfilled BY the Messiah, and do you expect (b) ALL the prophecies will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah? What scriptures do you have that indicate (a) and (b) will happen?

Okay, let's look at the prophecies which MUST be fulfilled. These are basically descriptions of the Messianic Era, and they are tied to the Messiah, since he will reign as King during that time. In each case, there is more than one passage, but I will pick one that I personally prefer.

1. He will bring all the Jews back to EretzYisrael. Isaiah 43:5-6

The reality of this prophecy is that it refers to a time when Israel has been living in Diaspora (such as the 2000 years we have just been through) and then are regathered into Israel (which we are in the process of as we speak).

Baha’is believe that the beginning of the fulfillment of this prophecy was in 1844.

It is interesting to note that the first major wave of Jews going to Israel was in 1882, which was during the lifetime of Baha’u’llah, who Baha’is believe was the Messiah. Baha’u’llah lived from 1817-1892.The question is: Why had Jewish communities there and smaller groups been making their way there before 1882? The answer to that question is the Edict of Toleration, which was signed in 1844.

“An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power.

21 March 1844 – Edict of Toleration, seen as beginning the process of allowing Jews to settle in the Holy Land. It reduces punishments for apostasy from death.[3]”
Edict of toleration

The Edict of Toleration was signed in 1844, the exact year of the proclamation of the Baha’i Faith.
Edict of Toleration 1844

2. The Messiah will reign from Jerusalem. I admit I am having difficulty finding the exact scripture I want -- mostly because I can't remember it's exact wording. But the Messiah is referred to as David, or King David. David wasn't a suffering servant or a prophet or a wise guru. He was a King who ruled from a throne in Jerusalem. When we say that the Messiah is David, we are saying that the Messiah is David's rightful heir and the King of Israel. We are also saying that he will unite Israel and restore Jerusalem as David did.

I agree this was not Jesus, but I would need to see a verse or verses in order to understand why you believe the messiah will be a King who ruled from a throne in Jerusalem.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has revealed a new Book of Laws and He is ruling on the throne of David.The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is Bahá'u'lláh's book of laws, written in Arabic around 1873 while He was still imprisoned within the city of 'Akká. It is considered the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith. As I recall, it was translated into English in 1982.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90​

2.1 Although I didn't mention it, we should not let this conversation pass without giving due diligence to the idea that the Temple will be rebuilt and the Messiah may be the one to do it. There are i.e. verses that support the idea that the priests will ALWAYS be offering sacrifices, but this particular verse is my favorite: Ezekiel 37:26-28

I know it is a Jewish belief that the Temple will be rebuilt, but I do not see anything about a Temple being rebuilt in those verses. Do you have any verses that say that the Temple will be rebuilt and the Messiah may be the one to do it?

3. He will usher in an era of literal world peace. The many verses speak of "They shall beat their swords into plowshares...Nation shall not lift sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Isaiah 2:4 And of course there is the famous, "The Wolf shall lie down with the Lamb." Isaiah 11:6 This is not the "inner peace" that Christians speak of, but tangible, measurable, peace between nations.

That is a good point that He will “usher in an era” of literal world peace. That in no way implies that world peace will be established immediately, or during the lifetime of the Messiah.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah and that these Isaiah prophecies wil be fulfilled as the result of His Coming, during this era which we refer to as the Age of Fulfillment (because it is the age when all the prophecies of all past religions will be fulfilled). It is also referred to as the Baha’i Cycle.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace. He set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Isaiah used symbolic language to describe the future He saw:

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation.

The sheep are the people of all the different religions who will be gathered together into one fold and have one shepherd. The fold is the humanity; the shepherd is Baha’u’llah.

Of course, I know that Jews believe that their religion will be restored, just as Christians believe that their religion will be restore when Jesus returns, but Baha’is by contrast believe that the eternal religion of God which is represented by all the true religions, will be restored, and in the distant future there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God. “for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” means that everyone will believe in God. There will only be one religion, the religion of God.

This is the fulfillment of what Jesus promised to do when He returned.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

4. I could list other things as well. It was never meant to be an exhaustive list. For example, In the messianic age, there will be a new covenant where we will not need to be taught right from wrong, and everyone will automatically know God. OBVIOUSLY that is not true yet. It's OBVIOUSLY not the new covenant that Christians speak of. Jeremiah 31:33-34

Baha’is believe that God made a new Covenant and it is called the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hello, Trailblaizer my friend. It is good to chat with you my friend. I'm glad we are able to talk these things over in a spirit of love and even fun.

In short, the Spirit of Jesus, better known as the Christ Spirit, was manifested in another man. Baha’u’llah was that Spirit and He came with another name, just as the Bible prophesied in Revelation 2:17 and Revelation 3:12.

Yes, I realize your religion teaches his. I am not here to talk you out of it. There is also not a chance in heaven or on earth that you will talk me into it, my friend.

So, do you expect (a) ALL the prophecies to be fulfilled BY the Messiah, and do you expect (b) ALL the prophecies will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah? What scriptures do you have that indicate (a) and (b) will happen?

What I expect is that all the prophecies will be fulfilled, that we will clearly be in the messianic age, and we will look up and see who sits on the throne in Israel, and THAT will be the messiah.

What I expect is that they will happen all at once, no one incarnation will do this one prophecy, and that other incarnation will do that other prophecy. Heck, if it were like that, I could claim *I* am the messiah, and that I will fulfill the rest of the prophecies next time I come. Do you see the problem?

Baha’is believe that the beginning of the fulfillment of this prophecy was in 1844.

It is interesting to note that the first major wave of Jews going to Israel was in 1882, which was during the lifetime of Baha’u’llah, who Baha’is believe was the Messiah. Baha’u’llah lived from 1817-1892.The question is: Why had Jewish communities there and smaller groups been making their way there before 1882? The answer to that question is the Edict of Toleration, which was signed in 1844.

I don't see why you are giving the Baha'u'llah credit for the Edict of Toleration of 1844. Clearly the biggest factor was the pressure from the British Empire on the crumbling Ottoman Empire. The initial objective was to release Christians from persecution. Jewish freedoms were merely a later biproduct.

The Edict of Toleration was signed in 1844, the exact year of the proclamation of the Baha’i Faith.

So the basis of your claim is merely the coincidental establishment of Bahai in the same year? Sorry, that's pretty poor logic.

I agree this was not Jesus, but I would need to see a verse or verses in order to understand why you believe the messiah will be a King who ruled from a throne in Jerusalem.[/quote ]
You have to understand how this works for us. The entire idea springs forth from the idea of an age to come (we call it the messianic age, but you can call it the wonderful age or the age of peace or whatever you wish). This era will be at the end of time. We have certain prophecies regarding it. I have already given verses for many of those prophecies, such as the return of Jews from Diaspora (which began in 1948 and has not yet reached completion). I have given verses regarding i.e. that it will be an age where there is no war between nations -- obviously that has NOT been true, not since Jesus, and not since the Baha'u'llah. There are many other prophecies, such as there being a temple and sacrifices in Jerusalem with people of all nations going there; Jews not having to learn the law the long way around but having it written on our hearts; and of course everyone automatically knowing God, no atheists, polytheists, etc. It is written that during this age 10 non-Jews will grasp onto the hem of the Jew and say, "Take us with you, for we have heard that God is with you." If those things have not happened, then it is not the Messianic age.

One of the promises of the Messianic age is that David will rule. Who is David? Is he a priest? No. Is he a prophet? No. David is a King. The Messiah will rule as David ruled, which means over Israel from Jerusalem. That is what it means to be David.
Isaiah 16:4-5
4...The oppressor will come to an end,
and destruction will cease;
the aggressor will vanish from the land.
5 In love a throne will be established;
in faithfulness a man will sit on it—
one from the house of David—
one who in judging seeks justice
and speeds the cause of righteousness.

Jeremiah 23:5
The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

Ezekiel 37:24
My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.

I could go on. There is no such thing as a Jewish Messiah who is not King David ruling over Israel.

[quoteBaha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has revealed a new Book of Laws and He is ruling on the throne of David.

Now this claim concerns me, because you are crossing over into the territory of Jewish birthright.

Is the Baha'u'llah a Jew? Is he a physical descendant of King David? Is he ruling over Israel? No? Then he is not our Messiah, since he does not fulfill the prophecies.

This is the same problem that I have with the Christians. Baha'i redefines Messiah, redefines what it means to be King, and then co-opts the idea of Messiah. Personally, if you guys want to have YOUR messiah, using YOUR ideas, I have no problem. But the minute you call him King David, and try to connect him to the prophecies in the Tanakh, I have to stand up and say, Not so fast, my friend! LOL

Nor can you claim to be connected with the Tanakh and claim to change the Law. First of all, the Law is the covenant for Israel, not the world. Baha'i steps out of bounds when it decides to take what our sacred texts tell us is an everlasting, EVERLASTING, covenant from us. Someday when the JEWISH messiah comes, he will make a new covenant, but as I have shown, that cannot have happened yet.

I know it is a Jewish belief that the Temple will be rebuilt, but I do not see anything about a Temple being rebuilt in those verses. Do you have any verses that say that the Temple will be rebuilt and the Messiah may be the one to do it?

I'm not sure why you don't see it in the verse I gave you. What is it about "my sanctuary will be with them forever" that is so hard to understand? Obviously that last Temple didn't fulfill that. Nor is there any Temple today. Thus it follows that another Temple will someday be rebuilt and it will last forever. This will either be done in preparation for the Messiah, or by the Messiah.

Here is another prophecy of the messianic era vision:
Isiah 56:7
"These I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

When has the Temple on the holy mountain ever been a house of prayer for all nations? This is clearly a prophecy of the Third Temple.

That is a good point that He will “usher in an era” of literal world peace. That in no way implies that world peace will be established immediately, or during the lifetime of the Messiah.

Of course, but it DOES mean that the messiah will reign DURING this era of peace between the nations. That eliminates the Baha'u'llah as the Jewish Messiah.

It appears that MOST of your argument is that Baha'u'llah will come again and fulfill these prophecies?? Do I have that right?

If so, you can claim him as the Messiah THEN. But not now. You can't say ANYTHING about him being the Jewish Messiah now, since he hasn't fulfilled the requirements.

Of course, I know that Jews believe that their religion will be restored,

Restored? Why would Judaism need to be restored? It has never been squelched. We are simply living it as our prophet Hosea directed us to do when there is no Temple: "The words of our lips (prayers) shall be as calves (sacrifices)." Psalm 40:7 "Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required."

Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

It depends. All will know God. All will know the truth. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9

But different peoples will worship him differently. It won't be goosestepping lock and key everyone is a clone kind of thing. Chinese will have their way of worshiping him. Scots will have their way. Nigerians will have their way. It's quite possible that the world religions will have a "makeover" to bring them completely inline but that many of their traditions will survive.

Certainly we won't be making the rest of the world into Jews. Non-Jews are fine just the way you guys were made by God.

This is my advice to you. Drop the part about the Baha'u'llah being the Jewish Messiah. Let him be a different sort of Messiah, one that fits your ideas better. There is nothing wrong with worshiping the One God with your own religion, even if, in our opinion, it has some mixed up ideas. Just don't trespass if you can help it.

And yeah, I make the same insistence to Christians, that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. I'm the friendliest of Jews, and I love you all dearly, but in situation where we all enjoy talking about this thing, I do consistently say the same thing across the board.

Be well, my friend.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I realize your religion teaches his. I am not here to talk you out of it. There is also not a chance in heaven or on earth that you will talk me into it, my friend.

Of course I know that, but I had no intention of talking you into anything.

I could no more convince you (or anyone) of my beliefs than they could convince me of theirs. Such is the case with believers. However, there might be a nonbeliever who is open-minded who could possibly come to see the Light of God.

What I expect is that all the prophecies will be fulfilled, that we will clearly be in the messianic age, and we will look up and see who sits on the throne in Israel, and THAT will be the messiah.

So, do you believe there will be an actual throne like a King now sits on, that the Messiah will sit upon?

What I expect is that they will happen all at once, no one incarnation will do this one prophecy, and that other incarnation will do that other prophecy. Heck, if it were like that, I could claim *I* am the messiah, and that I will fulfill the rest of the prophecies next time I come. Do you see the problem?

When you say “all at once” I am not sure exactly what you mean. If you mean that Jesus could not have fulfilled some of them and then return and fulfill the rest of them 2000 years later, I can agree. Jesus did not fulfill any of the “Messianic Age” prophecies.

But if by “all at once” you mean “instantly” I think that is also unrealistic, not unless the Messiah was God and could override human nature and chose to FIX EVERYTHING.

If that is what you believe, the problem I see is that (a) you have no scriptures that SAY it will happen instantly, and (b) it is unrealistic to even think that would be possible. It is just as unrealistic as what Christians believe when they say that when Jesus returns the world will suddenly be all fixed by Jesus, all at once, within an instant, and that a new creation like the Garden of Eden will suddenly appear. This is a fantasy as far as I am concerned because it contradicts what is scientifically possible. Baha'is believe that any religion that contradicts science is mere superstition.

If you mean within the lifetime of the Messiah, I also have a problem with that UNLESS you have specific scriptures that SAY it will happen within the lifetime of the Messiah. Otherwise, it is simply an expectation that you have, perhaps based upon what you have been told by your religious leaders, I don’t really know.

So the basis of your claim is merely the coincidental establishment of Bahai in the same year? Sorry, that's pretty poor logic.

Why is it poor logic? What reason do you have to think it is coincidental rather than indicative that the prophecy has been fulfilled? That would have to be a pretty big coincidence.

You have to understand how this works for us. The entire idea springs forth from the idea of an age to come (we call it the messianic age, but you can call it the wonderful age or the age of peace or whatever you wish). This era will be at the end of time.

Hold on... I want to stop you right there. What do you mean by “at the end of time?”

We have certain prophecies regarding it. I have already given verses for many of those prophecies, such as the return of Jews from Diaspora (which began in 1948 and has not yet reached completion). I have given verses regarding i.e. that it will be an age where there is no war between nations -- obviously that has NOT been true, not since Jesus, and not since the Baha'u'llah.

Do you realize that (a) there is more than one way that prophecies can be interpreted and (b) it is how you interpret the prophecies that determines your expectations? I have been saying the same thing to Christians for years.

Moreover, unless you have a prophecy in scripture that says that all Jews will return to their homeland as soon as the Messiah comes or during the lifetime of the Messiah, then it is simply an expectation that you have, perhaps based upon what you have been told by your religious leaders, I don’t really know.

Baha’is believe that during this age, which we call the Age of Fulfillment or the Messianic Age, there will be an end to war, and unless you have a prophecy that puts an exact time frame on that you cannot eliminate Baha’u’llah as the Messiah on that basis.

There are many other prophecies, such as there being a temple and sacrifices in Jerusalem with people of all nations going there; Jews not having to learn the law the long way around but having it written on our hearts; and of course everyone automatically knowing God, no atheists, polytheists, etc. It is written that during this age 10 non-Jews will grasp onto the hem of the Jew and say, "Take us with you, for we have heard that God is with you." If those things have not happened, then it is not the Messianic age.

I would have to see the exact prophecies and I would no doubt interpret them differently than you would, as would a Christian interpret them differently. So that leads to another important point; who is to say that the Jews have interpreted the prophecies correctly, what gives them that authority? Religious scriptures do not belong to anyone, just because they were addressing those people at the time.

Logically speaking, IF God has sent a new Messenger who has God’s knowledge, then He would know what all the previous scriptures were intended to mean. Baha’is believe that according to Daniel Chapter 12 the Book (scriptures) would be sealed up (not fully understood) until the time of the end, which is when the Messiah comes and unseals the Book by explaining what was not fully understood in the past religious dispensations.

One of the promises of the Messianic age is that David will rule. Who is David? Is he a priest? No. Is he a prophet? No. David is a King. The Messiah will rule as David ruled, which means over Israel from Jerusalem. That is what it means to be David.
Isaiah 16:4-5
4...The oppressor will come to an end,
and destruction will cease;
the aggressor will vanish from the land.
5 In love a throne will be established;
in faithfulness a man will sit on it—
one from the house of David—
one who in judging seeks justice
and speeds the cause of righteousness.

I do not see anything in those verses that says that David will be a King. That is simply an interpretation based upon who you have come to believe David is and it is based upon your other scriptures. You have an image in your mind of who the Messiah will be, and it is based upon your understanding of your scriptures. Those verses just as easily fit Baha’u’llah as your image. Baha’is believe that all of that is already beginning to happen and will continue to unfold during this age.

Jeremiah 23:5
The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.
Ezekiel 37:24
My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.

I could go on. There is no such thing as a Jewish Messiah who is not King David ruling over Israel.

Good luck waiting for that to happen, because it will never happen. Also, as I am sure you know, it does not work well to quote verses out of context because it leaves the meaning hanging out there.

Now this claim concerns me, because you are crossing over into the territory of Jewish birthright.

Is the Baha'u'llah a Jew? Is he a physical descendant of King David? Is he ruling over Israel? No? Then he is not our Messiah, since he does not fulfill the prophecies.

You mean he does not fulfill the prophecies as you interpret them.

This is the same problem that I have with the Christians. Baha'i redefines Messiah, redefines what it means to be King, and then co-opts the idea of Messiah. Personally, if you guys want to have YOUR messiah, using YOUR ideas, I have no problem. But the minute you call him King David, and try to connect him to the prophecies in the Tanakh, I have to stand up and say, Not so fast, my friend! LOL

There is no such thing as YOUR Messiah and MY Messiah. Logically speaking, and according to all the scriptures of all religions, there will be only ONE Messiah. There are different conceptions of who the Messiah will be, but there will be only ONE Messiah.

All the major religions have messianic prophecies, so unless Messiah is the fulfillment of ALL those prophecies He is not the Messiah. In other words, He has to be a universal Messiah, kind of like a universal remote that works on all TV sets, to grab a quick analogy.

The Messiah does not belong to the Jews. All the major religions have a Messianic figure that they are awaiting and even the Native Americans await a Messiah. This is the same mistake Christians make, believing that the Messiah is a fulfillment of ONLY their scriptures according to THEIR interpretation of those scriptures.

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both...”
Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage​

Moreover, the Messiah did not originate with Judaism.

“Below is a prophecy for the Coming of the Saoshyant or Zoroastrian Messiah. Or rather that the Messiah is the Jewish version of the Saoshyant as the Zoroastrians had the idea of the future chosen one first.

'He shall be the victorious Benefactor (Saoshyant) by name and World-renovator [Astavat-ereta] by name. He is Benefactor because he will benefit the entire physical world; he is World- renovator because he will establish the physical living existence indestructible. He will oppose the evil of the progeny of the biped and withstand the enmity produced by the faithful.' - Zoroastrianism- Avesta, FarvardinYast 13.129”
Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant​

The Messiah does not belong to the Baha’is either, He belongs to all the religions, since He is the fulfillment of the prophecies of all the religions of the past. Moreover, all religions are really one religion of God that are revealed in successive stages. It just so happens the Messiah was slated to appear in the 19th century and those who recognized Baha’u’llah as the Messiah came to be called Baha’is.

Baha’u’llah was the Messiah. That is provable to those who really want to know. Your interpretations of scripture cannot ever change that because it was the Will of God.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Nor can you claim to be connected with the Tanakh and claim to change the Law. First of all, the Law is the covenant for Israel, not the world. Baha'i steps out of bounds when it decides to take what our sacred texts tell us is an everlasting, EVERLASTING, covenant from us. Someday when the JEWISH messiah comes, he will make a new covenant, but as I have shown, that cannot have happened yet.

Baha’u’llah can change the Law of God because He was the Messiah and God sent Him to do just that. God has all power to do whatever He wants to do, since God is omnipotent.

Baha’is do not claim to change the Law of the Tanakh; that is the Law for the Jews. The Baha’i Laws only apply to the Baha’is and nobody else is subject to our Laws. However, Baha’is believe that these are the Laws that God wants everyone to follow in this new age, and that is why they were revealed.

Do you really think that Jewish Law is going to apply for all of time and eternity? That isn’t even logical since people change and the world we live in changes over time; thus God’s Law has to change in order to be pertinent to the age in which we live, since social conditions change drastically over time.

The Covenant between God and man is everlasting, in that there has always been and will always be a binding agreement between God and man. In the sense that it is continuous and every religion has had a Covenant with its followers. That is explained in this Wikipedia site: Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh

A new Covenant has come to mankind: Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

It is the Covenant between Baha’u’llah and His followers, and it does not apply to followers of other religions. Just as you have your own Covenant, we have our own Covenant.

I'm not sure why you don't see it in the verse I gave you. What is it about "my sanctuary will be with them forever" that is so hard to understand? Obviously that last Temple didn't fulfill that. Nor is there any Temple today. Thus it follows that another Temple will someday be rebuilt and it will last forever. This will either be done in preparation for the Messiah, or by the Messiah.

That is yet another interpretation of the verses, an overlay you put upon them. “My sanctuary will be with them forever” could mean any number of things and it depends upon the context. Sanctuary means an actual physical Temple to you because of what you believe but it does not mean that to Baha’is. Different religions have different ideas about what the Third Temple is going to be, and even within Judaism views differ. (See Third Temple)

In the Bahá'í view the prophecy of the Third Temple was fulfilled with the writing of the Súriy-i-Haykal by Bahá'u'lláh in pentacle form.[42] The Súriy-i-Haykal or Tablet of the Temple, is a composite work which consists of a tablet followed by five messages addressed to world leaders; shortly after its completion, Bahá'u'lláh instructed the tablet be written in the form of a pentacle, symbolizing the human temple and added to it the conclusion:[43]

Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.[44]

Shoghi Effendi, the head of the Bahá'í Faith in the first half of the 20th century, explained that this verse refers to the prophecy in the Hebrew Bible where Zechariah had promised the rebuilding of the Temple in the End Times as fulfilled in the return of the Manifestation of God, Bahá'u'lláh, in a human temple.[43][45] Throughout the tablet, Bahá'u'lláh addresses the Temple (himself) and explains the glory which is invested in it allowing all the nations of the world to find redemption.[42][46] In the tablet, Bahá'u'lláh states that the Manifestation of God is a pure mirror that reflects the sovereignty of God and manifests God's beauty and grandeur to mankind.[42] In essence, Bahá'u'lláh explains that the Manifestation of God is a "Living Temple" and Bahá'u'lláh addresses the organs and limbs of the human body and bids each to focus on God and not the earthly world.[42]
Third Temple - Wikipedia​

Here is another prophecy of the messianic era vision:
Isaiah 56:7
"These I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

When has the Temple on the holy mountain ever been a house of prayer for all nations? This is clearly a prophecy of the Third Temple.

All of that has already happened. The Temple, as delineated above, was/is Baha’u’llah and above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming that the Messiah (who is the Glory of the Lord referred to in Isaiah 35) has come. The Baha’i Faith is ruling on the holy mountain which is atop Mt. Carmel, a house of prayer for all nations.

“That is a good point that He will “usher in an era” of literal world peace. That in no way implies that world peace will be established immediately, or during the lifetime of the Messiah.”

Of course, but it DOES mean that the messiah will reign DURING this era of peace between the nations. That eliminates the Baha'u'llah as the Jewish Messiah.

Baha’u’llah is reigning right now, from the spiritual world, because we are living in His religious Dispensation.

It appears that MOST of your argument is that Baha'u'llah will come again and fulfill these prophecies?? Do I have that right?

No, my argument is that Baha’u’llah came and went (born in 1817 and died in 1892). Certain prophecies were fulfilled during His lifetime and the remainder of the prophecies will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age. They will be fulfilled by humans living in this age.

If so, you can claim him as the Messiah THEN. But not now. You can't say ANYTHING about him being the Jewish Messiah now, since he hasn't fulfilled the requirements.

As I noted above, there is no Jewish Messiah, there is simply the Jewish conception of who the Messiah will be.

“Of course, I know that Jews believe that their religion will be restored,”

Restored? Why would Judaism need to be restored? It has never been squelched. We are simply living it as our prophet Hosea directed us to do when there is no Temple: "The words of our lips (prayers) shall be as calves (sacrifices)." Psalm 40:7 "Sacrifice and meal-offering Thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast Thou opened; burnt-offering and sin-offering hast Thou not required."

I did not mean restored because the religion has been squelched. An Orthodox Jew on another forum some time ago told me that the Torah would be restored when the Messiah comes.

“Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.”

It depends. All will know God. All will know the truth. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9

But different peoples will worship him differently. It won't be goosestepping lock and key everyone is a clone kind of thing. Chinese will have their way of worshiping him. Scots will have their way. Nigerians will have their way. It's quite possible that the world religions will have a "makeover" to bring them completely inline but that many of their traditions will survive.

I do not believe that people will continue to worship God in different religions. I believe that eventually everyone from every religion will realize there is only one God and there will be one religion. I am not saying that will be the Baha’i Faith, it could be called something else, since it depends upon when that comes to pass. It might not come to pass during the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah in which case it will be a new religion.

Certainly we won't be making the rest of the world into Jews. Non-Jews are fine just the way you guys were made by God.

And we won’t be making the rest of the world into Baha’is either. Religion as well as belief in God has to be strictly voluntary, it will never be forced.

This is my advice to you. Drop the part about the Baha'u'llah being the Jewish Messiah. Let him be a different sort of Messiah, one that fits your ideas better. There is nothing wrong with worshiping the One God with your own religion, even if, in our opinion, it has some mixed up ideas. Just don't trespass if you can help it.

There is no Jewish Messiah; there is just “the Messiah.” Why do Jews and Christians want to take possession of the Messiah? I do not know any other religions that do this. Baha’is are not trespassing by declaring that the Messiah “of all the religions” has come.

And yeah, I make the same insistence to Christians, that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. I'm the friendliest of Jews, and I love you all dearly, but in situation where we all enjoy talking about this thing, I do consistently say the same thing across the board.

No, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah because there is no Jewish Messiah, just a Jewish conception of what the Messiah will be like.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So, do you believe there will be an actual throne like a King now sits on, that the Messiah will sit upon?

It could be a nice exectuve desk of a powerful President or Prime Minister.

When you say “all at once” I am not sure exactly what you mean. If you mean that Jesus could not have fulfilled some of them and then return and fulfill the rest of them 2000 years later, I can agree. Jesus did not fulfill any of the “Messianic Age” prophecies.

The same thing goes for the Baha'u'llah. One cannot say that he fulfilled some prophecies in the past, and will return to fulfill the rest in some future life when he returns. Again, it is an issue of the messianic age coming, when all of these prophecies are simultaneously being fulfilled, and you look and see who is "David," meaning who is ruling Israel, and THAT is the Messiah. It is not a matter of interpretation. There is no other way to read one who is of the house of David. The Baha'u'llah is not of the House of David, meaning he is not a direct physical descendant of David. He is not even a Jew.

But if by “all at once” you mean “instantly” I think that is also unrealistic, not unless the Messiah was God and could override human nature and chose to FIX EVERYTHING.

I did not use the word instantly. I said it was a matter of being in the messianic age, when all the prophesies are simultaneously fulfilled -- then look to see who rules Israel and that is the Messiah.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I am attempting to say things very carefully, so that there is no misunderstanding. There are many different theories about the coming of the Messiah by those Jews who believe he will come (and there are many Jews who don't believe in any messiah at all). I'm attempting to word things in such a way as to include all messianic beliefs of Jews (except the Christian ones of course).

Why is it poor logic? What reason do you have to think it is coincidental rather than indicative that the prophecy has been fulfilled? That would have to be a pretty big coincidence.

No, it really doesn't have to be a "big" coincidence. It's just a coincidence.

There is a rule of thumb in research -- correlation does not mean causation. What you have is a historical correlation. What you don't have is evidence of causation.

Hold on... I want to stop you right there. What do you mean by “at the end of time?”

There is simply part of these prophecies that speak to a change in human nature, and a replacement of current Jewish covenant with a New Covenant. That can only happen at the end of time since the Jewish covenant is "everlasting" and human nature is for this world.

For example, nation shall not lift of sword against nation. That's a change in human nature. Also, everyone shall know God. That's a change in human mentality -- right now, we have many atheists, people who simply don't sense God's existence.

Do you realize that (a) there is more than one way that prophecies can be interpreted...

I realize that many try to interpret our prophets differently. Christians make prophecies where none exist, and believe in mistranslations. I'm not really familiar enough with Baha'i beliefs to know exactly how you do it. I only know that the prophecies do not have multiple meanings. The prophets meant one thing, so we cannot all be right.

Moreover, unless you have a prophecy in scripture that says that all Jews will return to their homeland as soon as the Messiah comes or during the lifetime of the Messiah, then it is simply an expectation that you have, perhaps based upon what you have been told by your religious leaders, I don’t really know.

OMGosh it says so in the prophets! Even the Christians give us this. The fact that Jews began returning to the land and Israel became a state in 1948 was a watershed event even for Christians.

Baha’is believe that during this age, which we call the Age of Fulfillment or the Messianic Age, there will be an end to war, and unless you have a prophecy that puts an exact time frame on that you cannot eliminate Baha’u’llah as the Messiah on that basis.

Except that it hasn't come yet, and the Baha'u'llah is already dead. Honestly, this really should be a dead giveaway.

So that leads to another important point; who is to say that the Jews have interpreted the prophecies correctly, what gives them that authority? Religious scriptures do not belong to anyone, just because they were addressing those people at the time.

I disagree with this. While non-Jews are certainly welcome to study our writings and gain inspiration from them, they do not belong to the world. They were written by Jews, about Jews, for Jews, and thus should be interpreted by Jews. It is Jews who have, through Oral Torah, kept alive those traditions through which they are properly explained.

I do not see anything in those verses that says that David will be a King. That is simply an interpretation based upon who you have come to believe David is and it is based upon your other scriptures.

What else do you imagine David to be if not a ruler of Israel? Especially when another verse denotes someone "of the house of Israel."

There is no such thing as YOUR Messiah and MY Messiah. Logically speaking, and according to all the scriptures of all religions, there will be only ONE Messiah. There are different conceptions of who the Messiah will be, but there will be only ONE Messiah.

And he will be the Jewish Messiah. Again, the prophets are Jewish prophets. They wrote about Jews, for Jews, and it will be interpreted by Jews. The entire collection of writings belongs to Jews, although of course, you are welcome to read it and come closer to God.

Many religions may contain a notion of a messiah, but they are very different notions of a messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you really think that Jewish Law is going to apply for all of time and eternity?]/quote]Not eternity. But to the end times of this world. Either in the messianic age, or after the resurrection (depending on which messianic group you ask) God will establish a New Covenant WITH ISRAEL. In this covenant, all will not need instruction in right and wrong (because the law will be written on everyone's heart), and everyone will automatically know God (there will be no atheists). Until that time, Jewish Law is binding on Jews. The Torah calls it an "everlasting" covenant.

That isn’t even logical since people change and the world we live in changes over time; thus God’s Law has to change in order to be pertinent to the age in which we live, since social conditions change drastically over time.

This is why we have Rabbis to rule how we observe Torah in each new age. But you don't abrogate the Torah. Not in my opinion.

It is the Covenant between Baha’u’llah and His followers, and it does not apply to followers of other religions. Just as you have your own Covenant, we have our own Covenant.

I have no problems with you practicing your own religion. Any religion that worships the Divine and lives ethically is A-Okay. I only take issue with the absconding of the Jewish messiah. And really, even there, I'm only talking academically. I don't actually have an emotional stake in this.

All of that has already happened. The Temple, as delineated above, was/is Baha’u’llah

Not having a physical building to be the Temple makes it rather difficult to offer the sacrifices that are also part of the prophecy. I can't accept this EXTREME figurative reading. It just eliminates too much of what was said by the prophets.

Baha’u’llah is reigning right now, from the spiritual world, because we are living in His religious Dispensation.

Again, you are reading it in such an over figurative manner as to lose the meaning of the text. For me to exchange a throne for an executive desk, that kind of figurative reading makes sense. But David was a literal ruler and he was a ruler of Israel. You lose both of these in your figurative reign. You also lose all the rest of the prophecies, such as it being an era of peace.

I did not mean restored because the religion has been squelched. An Orthodox Jew on another forum some time ago told me that the Torah would be restored when the Messiah comes.

Oh I see. The prophets often refer to a faithful remnant of Israel. In the Messianic Age, all Jews will be brought back to obeying God. That is what this Orthodox Jew is referring to. I would agree with him.

As always, a pleasure talking to you!!!

 

[RESOLUTION]

Hello Indigo,

Many thanks for getting back to myself.

Hello my friend. Thank you for responding. I want you to know that I have nothing against Christianity or you being a Christian, or Bahai, or Buddhist, or whatever. A Gentile does not need to become a Jew in order to be a righteous person. The only time I push for someone to come into Judaism is when they are a Jew, because they have been born into a covenant, whether they will it or not, a responsibility to themselves, to the world, and to God.

YHWH, always keeps his promises and in his word there is much a person can find through study which will lead to himself as the only true God.
There is nothing to hold against other religions and I agree with you because faith is a personal matter and each individual is now responsible for their own paths.
Being a Jew is more than a covenant because it is about being a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The covenant with the Jews when God lead them out of Egypt he did for
the sake of his promises to Abraham. It was also to ensure the survival o the twelve tribes of Israel/Jacob because it was Gods intention from the beginning that the Messiah would be born from
among his people. It appears to often than they forget God is a LIVING God not just a set of tenets and beliefs. So a personal relationship is what all those who are part of covenants have with
God.

1.I've never heard of Israel being called "a way of Jacob," so no. I said, "the LAND of Israel, " so yes, that's the place. And I'm sorry, my friend, but Jesus was no where on earth when Israel became a nation in 1948, or since, as the return of Jews to our homeland continues. You can give credit to God, sure. But any messiah that gets credit has to actually be here on the planet.

Genesis 32:28 The man said, “But no longer. Your name is no longer Jacob. From now on it’s Israel (God-Wrestler); you’ve wrestled with God and you’ve come through.”

God names Jacob, Israel. It is through his descendants that God makes the way for the Messiah. It is Jacob who is Israel and why they are called the tribes of Israel not the place. It has never
really been about the place but about the people.

2. Did God ever rule on the throne in Jerusalem? Eh, no. ???? Does anyone ever answer that yes? Eh, no. Jesus may have had his own ideas as to whether he was the messiah and whether his kingdom was of this world or not. Don't care. The question is not what Jesus thought, but what God intended and revealed through the prophets. What the prophets spoke of is a Davidic King. This King rules the earth during the messianic era. There is no messianic era, and no King upon the throne. Thus, Jesus is not the messiah.

21 Adonai went ahead of them in a column of cloud during the daytime to lead them on their way, and at night in a column of fire to give them light; thus they could travel both by day and by night. 22 Neither the column of cloud by day nor the column of fire at night went away from in front of the people.

21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

In the KJV the jewish Scholars wrote it in capitals telling us that this was YHWH himself they were referring to.
The tribes of Israel was lead by the true King of heaven, God himself. It is not a place that makes God Holy or a people but God himself is Holy of himself and all where he is there will be found
the Glory of God. So my purpose to show not a place but the presence of God with his people is what counts.

3. Firstly, NO, I don't see a time of greater peace. WW1 and WW2????? Are you kidding me? The atom bomb used in Japan? You think there was anything similar to that used during Jesus' time? Secondly, it's not supposed to be a time or relatively greater peace, a lighter grey, it's supposed to be a time of PEACE, when nation doesn't lift sword against nation. For the last 2000 years that has simply not been true. Jesus was an utter failure.

12 “When that time comes, Mikha’el, the great prince who champions your people, will stand up; and there will be a time of distress unparalleled between the time they became a nation and that moment. At that time, your people will be delivered, everyone whose name is found written in the book.

If the Messiah was to bring peace then why does it say after the Messiah at the very end that will be a time of distress unparalleled between the time they became a nation and at that moment.
At that time the people will be delivered everyone whose name is in the book. You see the peace theory from the Messiah goes out of the window when Daniel clearly writes what given to him by God that at the very end is going to a time of unparalleled distress.
We know according to the writings of the book of Daniel Gods Messiah will have already come. A kingdom according to Gods way not mans.

The words in Hebrew are different. The word translated as LORD in all caps is the sacred name of God, which is out of respect for its holiness never put into print unless for worship and then only in Hebrew. Even when we worship, we substitute Adonai (Lord) for the yad hey and vav hey (how you spell the sacred name). There are other times in the Tanakh where Adonai is actually used, and you will see it written in regular case letters, rather than all caps. As I said, it could refer to God, to a King, to an overlord... There were other words that are translated as God.

What we have to do is remember that Baal was called Lord too. It is not one god but many gods all within the forces of Nature. Only Bel if related would mean a god unrelated to the others.
The Hebrews Scholars who translated the OT were very strong in their belief to ensure the word not changed. They used Capital letters for the Word LORD to denote it's use for God the Hebrew God. The Jewish Scholars were translating into another language and there was not always a word in the other language which would translate in the original Hebrew so they marked pages to denote where a word nearest to original meaning was used and put an explanation. But the Prophets like the believers such as Samiel, King David, Elisha, Elijah and Moses all had personal
relationships with God. How do you think that King David was able to reveal information about the Messiah or the Prophets? The Holy Spirit of God gave men the words to speak.
Whatever we learn from Gods word we learn that God is always active amongst those whom he has anointed.

Since Christ a great peace amongst nations have fell upon the world and we have come further in the last 2,000 years than any other time in our history.
Daniel tells us...
4 “But you, Dani’el, keep these words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rush here and there as knowledge increases.”

So does your Messiah bring everlasting peace to the world and is Daniel wrong about the time of unparralleled distress between the time they became a nation and that moment when the people wlll be delivered? You see even Daniel tells us the Kingdom of Gods chosen will have already been set up and then the end comes when the time of DISTRESS has happened.
The peace Christ brought shows that worship of God is not a place but mankind worshiping God in the true temple their hearts by the power of Gods Spirit of Truth within them.

 

[Trailblazer]

The same thing goes for the Baha'u'llah. One cannot say that he fulfilled some prophecies in the past, and will return to fulfill the rest in some future life when he returns. Again, it is an issue of the messianic age coming, when all of these prophecies are simultaneously being fulfilled,

And that is exactly where we are at, in the beginning of the Messianic Age, and the prophecies are starting to be fulfilled. Baha’u’llah came and went; He is not going to come back. This age will last no less than 500,000 years so there is no hurry for the prophecies to be fulfilled immediately.

An example of a prophecy that is already being fulfilled is Isaiah 9:6-7

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government). The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

and you look and see who is "David," meaning who is ruling Israel, and THAT is the Messiah. It is not a matter of interpretation. There is no other way to read one who is of the house of David. The Baha'u'llah is not of the House of David, meaning he is not a direct physical descendant of David. He is not even a Jew.

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

"The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH​

Genealogy of Bahaullah Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh​

There is a rule of thumb in research -- correlation does not mean causation. What you have is a historical correlation. What you don't have is evidence of causation.

That raises another point. Do you really think that if the Messiah came and prophecies were fulfilled, all the Jews would recognize Him as the causation? I can say for a fact that would never happen because all Jews are not going to KNOW it was the Messiah since they are not all looking for exactly the same things to happen. But would that mean He was not the Messiah? No, it wouldn’t mean that at all. So hypothetically speaking, Baha’u’llah could be that Messiah Jews are waiting for and not all Jews would recognize Him. Indeed, some Jews have become Baha’is, even back in the 19th century when Baha’u’llah was still alive, so we know some have recognized Him.

Jewish Conversion to the Bahá'í Faith
The network of Baha'is of Jewish Background​

There is simply part of these prophecies that speak to a change in human nature, and a replacement of current Jewish covenant with a New Covenant. That can only happen at the end of time since the Jewish covenant is "everlasting" and human nature is for this world.

According to this website, the Messiah will be the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.

“The covenant that God made with all flesh during the days of Noah was a general covenant (Gen. 9:16) that will eventually end in judgment (Is. 24:5). God also made a specific everlasting covenant with Abraham which would be a blessing to the world. The everlasting covenant with Abraham continued through Isaac and his seed (Gen. 17:7,19). King David played a part in the line of that seed until the Messiah came, who was the ultimate fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.” God’s Everlasting Covenant – Noach – Nov. 5 – Jewels of Judaism​

So that indicates that it would be in the end times that the everlasting covenant will be fulfilled when the Messiah comes. I believe we are living in the end times but it won’t be the end of time because it was prophesied in Isaiah 11:6-9 that the world would eventually see the Golden Age.

I realize that many try to interpret our prophets differently. Christians make prophecies where none exist, and believe in mistranslations. I'm not really familiar enough with Baha'i beliefs to know exactly how you do it. I only know that the prophecies do not have multiple meanings. The prophets meant one thing, so we cannot all be right.

If the prophets meant one thing, how do you think that the people interpreting those prophecies can know what that one thing was? It seems to me everyone thinks they know the true meaning but there are so many different meanings that can be attributed to a prophecy that I consider it impossible to know. Baha’is believe that prophecies have been fulfilled by Bahaullah and we know what He actually did, as well as what has actually happened as the result of His coming, so that is why we think we know what they were intended to mean by the prophets.

OMGosh it says so in the prophets! Even the Christians give us this. The fact that Jews began returning to the land and Israel became a state in 1948 was a watershed event even for Christians.

So if it is, that is indicative that the Messiah has come. I already know what Christians believe about that. They believe that the verse has not been completely fulfilled and won’t be until Jesus returns. The Latter Days | The Gospel Truth

The Christians missed the boat on this one, because David is not in reference to Jesus Christ and the same Jesus is never going to return to earth and establish God’s kingdom on earth. Jesus even said that Himself in John 17:4 and John 17:11 and John 18: 36. Yet they still wait.

Except that it hasn't come yet, and the Baha'u'llah is already dead. Honestly, this really should be a dead giveaway.

Do you have any scriptures that say that there would be an end to war within the lifetime of the Messiah or in any specified time-frame after that?

“The thing is, that if you read the entire Old Testament, you will not find any verse that says “when the Messiah comes, all wars will cease.” These conclusions are based on false interpretations of different passages. The question arises because when the rabbis try to describe the Messiah they are not consistent or decisive, but confusing and vague. This is why we find so many different and contradicting opinions about who the Messiah is, when he will come and what he will do.” Isn’t the Messiah Supposed to Bring World Peace?

I disagree with this. While non-Jews are certainly welcome to study our writings and gain inspiration from them, they do not belong to the world. They were written by Jews, about Jews, for Jews, and thus should be interpreted by Jews. It is Jews who have, through Oral Torah, kept alive those traditions through which they are properly explained.

That might be true, if the Messiah had not come. But if the Messiah has come from God, then He has the authority to explain what the scriptures mean. As Daniel 12 says, the book was sealed up until the time of the end, meaning it could not be fully understood until then.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. ​

The 2,300 years came in 1844. That is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

1844 was the date of the proclamation of the Bab, which signalized the beginning of the Baha’i Era, the beginning of the Messianic Age. The book was unsealed because Baha’u’llah and His appointed interpreter Abdu’l-Baha explained what it means.

And he will be the Jewish Messiah. Again, the prophets are Jewish prophets. They wrote about Jews, for Jews, and it will be interpreted by Jews. The entire collection of writings belongs to Jews, although of course, you are welcome to read it and come closer to God.

Many religions may contain a notion of a messiah, but they are very different notions of a messiah.

So what proof do you have that your notion of the Messiah is the one correct notion? Moreover, and this is the most salient point, why would a Messiah who was prophesied in ALL the religions of the past be a Messiah who came just for the Jews? This makes no logical sense and the Christians have to answer the same question. Will the Jewish or Christian Messiah have plans to save the whole world, or just the adherents to their religions? If not, what will happen to everyone else in the world?

So what about all the other religions of the world who have a different idea of what the Messiah will be like? Why do Jews and Christians believe they are so special, that there would be a Messiah just for them, that God has chosen them above all other people in the world? What kind of God would leave everyone else out in the cold? It certainly would not be a loving and just God. And that is why I cannot be any religion other than a Baha’i, because we believe all religions were divinely revealed and all came from the one true God. The Baha’i Faith is not special, it s just newer.

 

[Trailblazer]

“That isn’t even logical since people change and the world we live in changes over time; thus God’s Law has to change in order to be pertinent to the age in which we live, since social conditions change drastically over time.”

This is why we have Rabbis to rule how we observe Torah in each new age. But you don't abrogate the Torah. Not in my opinion.

Baha’is do not believe that any of the older religions have been abrogated, only that their religious dispensations have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, explains that in this chapter: Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth

I have no problems with you practicing your own religion. Any religion that worships the Divine and lives ethically is A-Okay. I only take issue with the absconding of the Jewish messiah. And really, even there, I'm only talking academically. I don't actually have an emotional stake in this.

And what I take issue with is this idea that there is a Jewish Messiah. There is a messiah depicted in the Jewish scriptures, but there is also a Messiah depicted in all other scriptures of all the major religions. But there can only be one Messiah, so how would it worek if one religion claimed Him to belong to them?

Not having a physical building to be the Temple makes it rather difficult to offer the sacrifices that are also part of the prophecy. I can't accept this EXTREME figurative reading. It just eliminates too much of what was said by the prophets.

That’s your choice. I cannot discount what all the prophets said that has come to pass either. That is all explained in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears. Most of the prophecies referred to are from the Old Testament, and they are numerous.

I am of course at a disadvantage since I do not know all the Jewish prophecies or what they mean to Jews. For example, I do not know about the sacrifices being made at Temples. Do you mean animal sacrifices and if so what is the purpose of those sacrifices, to remove sin?

Again, you are reading it in such an over figurative manner as to lose the meaning of the text. For me to exchange a throne for an executive desk, that kind of figurative reading makes sense. But David was a literal ruler and he was a ruler of Israel. You lose both of these in your figurative reign. You also lose all the rest of the prophecies, such as it being an era of peace.

As I have been telling Christians for over five years, this is ALL about interpretation. Everyone thinks that their interpretation if correct which (if they disagree) has to mean that all the others are incorrect. The difference between the Baha’i Faith and Judaism and Christianity is that their Messiah figure has not come so all they can really do is guess what those prophecies mean. By contrast, Baha’u’llah has come so we can now look at the prophecies and see how they were fulfilled by His coming. But if one is “attached” to their own interpretations they will never see anything else and they will just continue to wait.

I did not mean restored because the religion has been squelched. An Orthodox Jew on another forum some time ago told me that the Torah would be restored when the Messiah comes.

Oh I see. The prophets often refer to a faithful remnant of Israel. In the Messianic Age, all Jews will be brought back to obeying God. That is what this Orthodox Jew is referring to. I would agree with him.

And now I do recall what he said, he said that all Jews will be brought back to obeying the Torah.

I guess there are many secular Jews. Do you think that is because of the Holocaust? I know a very liberal Jewish woman from another forum quite well and she considers herself an agnostic. I believe that in the future everyone will believe in God, so that would include the Jews.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154​

As always, a pleasure talking to you!!!

Likewise. Unfortunately, I do not know that much about Judaism, mostly what I have learned from various Jewish posters on forums and from looking things up on the internet. I know more about Christianity simply because there are more Christians in my country and there are more on forums.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

there is also a Messiah depicted in all other scriptures of all the major religions

What are you referring to as the major religions here?

 

[Trailblazer]

What are you referring to as the major religions here?

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the Zoroastrian religion.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the Zoroastrian religion.

What's your definition of a major religion?

 

[Trailblazer]

What's your definition of a major religion?

A religion that was revealed by a Universal Manifestation of God.
The Three Kinds of Prophets

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And that is exactly where we are at, in the beginning of the Messianic Age, and the prophecies are starting to be fulfilled.

1948 can be one of two things. It can be preparation for the Messianic Age, which would mean that the Messianic Age is not here yet. Or it could mean the beginning of the Messianic Age. Since none of the PM's of Israel have been the Messiah, the first has been true,that it has been preparation for the Messianic age in my opinion.

Baha’u’llah came and went; He is not going to come back. This age will last no less than 500,000 years so there is no hurry for the prophecies to be fulfilled immediately.

500,000 years? That's not an "age." 500,000 years ago, we were not even modern human beings yet. In another 500,000 years we will undoubtedly no longer be human. In ancient history an age was more like 800 years for the iron age. Time has sped up enormously since then. The age of industry in Europe lasted less than 200 years.

An example of a prophecy that is already being fulfilled is Isaiah 9:6-7

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.​

​

One of the things they don't tell you if you're not Jewish is that this is a mistranslation. Those who want to make this into a Messianic prophecy have CHANGED the text from past tense into future tense. The truth is that it is about King Hezekiah, who was already born. Isaiah talks about him a lot. Remember: Past tense.

This is why Christians and Baha'is need to learn Hebrew. Translations are just not good enough. If you know Hebrew, no one will ever snooker you, you can always go straight to the source.

That raises another point. Do you really think that if the Messiah came and prophecies were fulfilled, all the Jews would recognize Him as the causation?

I don't know what you mean by "causation," but I know that the entire world will recognize him. It will not be an event that people will dispute, it will be the most obvious thing in the world. Same with the messianic era. You won't be having people saying, "Jiminy cricket, how can you say this is the messianic era?" The difference will be so incredible that no one will have any doubt.

So that indicates that it would be in the end times that the everlasting covenant will be fulfilled when the Messiah comes. I believe we are living in the end times but it won’t be the end of time because it was prophesied in Isaiah 11:6-9 that the world would eventually see the Golden Age.]/quote]

Well, yes. All this is the end times. And the Baha'u'llah was not at the end of times.

If the prophets meant one thing, how do you think that the people interpreting those prophecies can know what that one thing was?

Ask the people to whom the prophecies were given and who by our oral traditions have kept the original understanding of those prophecies alive.

Do you have any scriptures that say that there would be an end to war within the lifetime of the Messiah or in any specified time-frame after that?

You don't seem to understand the basics. Things like "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation" are descriptions of the messianic age (another reason we know that we are not in the messianic age). When these prophecies are all fulfilled, and we are in the messianic age, you look around and see who is ruling Israel. That person is the Messiah. These things will be very obvious. No one will dispute them. In fact, the other religions of the world will suddenly realize that while they had some things right, that Judaism carried the flame of truth. It says in the prophets that 10 non-Jews will grasp the hem of a Jew and say Let us go with you, for we know that God is with you.

I'm not saying this to proselytize you, not by far. I'm simply saying that while you have a lovely God-serving religion, it doesn't have *everything* quite right.

“The thing is, that if you read the entire Old Testament, you will not find any verse that says “when the Messiah comes, all wars will cease.”

It's called the Messianic Era because it's when the Messiah will rule.

Most Christians are unaware, but before Israel chose to have a King, it was called the End of Days. The QUESTION of whether there would be a messiah or not was undecided UNTIL the people chose Saul as their King. That determined Israel's course. This is why the Torah (earlier Tanakh) does not mention the messiah, but the prophets (who came later) do.

This is why we find so many different and contradicting opinions about who the Messiah is, when he will come and what he will do.” Isn’t the Messiah Supposed to Bring World Peace?

All I've said is that he will usher in an era of world peace. How much he will be directly responsible for it I have no idea. But you can't have a messiah and there be no world peace -- THAT is impossible. Why? Because world peace is part of the messianic era.

That might be true, if the Messiah had not come. But if the Messiah has come from God, then He has the authority to explain what the scriptures mean. As Daniel 12 says, the book was sealed up until the time of the end, meaning it could not be fully understood until then.

OR one way of knowing the Messiah is that he is not going to contradict the meaning of the prophets.

It is the book of Daniel that is sealed up, not the other prophets. And if it is sealed up, it's not a good idea to try to figure out Daniel 12:12, especially since you don't know what year Daniel was written.

So what proof do you have that your notion of the Messiah is the one correct notion? Moreover, and this is the most salient point, why would a Messiah who was prophesied in ALL the religions of the past be a Messiah who came just for the Jews? This makes no logical sense and the Christians have to answer the same question. Will the Jewish or Christian Messiah have plans to save the whole world, or just the adherents to their religions? If not, what will happen to everyone else in the world?

I'm not interested in the various messiah of other religions. I'm only interested in the Jewish Messiah. The Jewish Messiah rules during the Messianic Era. He does not suffer and die as a sacrifice. He does not save people from their sins. He is not simply a wonderful messenger from God. Or anything of that nature.


It's like Noah's flood. It was a local flood. There are legends of floods all over the world. They are legends of local floods all over the world. They do not indicate a worldwide flood.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And what I take issue with is this idea that there is a Jewish Messiah. There is a messiah depicted in the Jewish scriptures, but there is also a Messiah depicted in all other scriptures of all the major religions. But there can only be one Messiah, so how would it worek if one religion claimed Him to belong to them?

It's a matter of only one religion being right about him. You are no different. You claim your religion actually has the Messiah even.

In Judaism, the Messiah will rule over Israel, but (I think this is in the Talmud) it is said that he will be accepted by the whole world. I don't really know how it will all work. I only know that he will be a political leader. Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause a shoot of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.

I am of course at a disadvantage since I do not know all the Jewish prophecies or what they mean to Jews. For example, I do not know about the sacrifices being made at Temples. Do you mean animal sacrifices and if so what is the purpose of those sacrifices, to remove sin?

Some sacrifices remove unintentional sin. Some were merely to worship, some of these every day. Not all sacrifices were animals.

I should mention that some Jews are horrified at the idea of a third Temple being built and sacrifices resuming. These tend to be Jews that do not believe in a literal messiah as well.

By contrast, Baha’u’llah has come so we can now look at the prophecies and see how they were fulfilled by His coming.

I just have to take issue with that. I just don't see how you can say it. Let's take just one prophecy. Just the one about "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." Do you realize how many wars their have been since the birth of the Baha'u'llah? And not just wars, but cataclysmic wars. Indeed, we had the atom bomb fall on Japan. How can you say this prophecy has been fulfilled with a straight face?


[quote[I guess there are many secular Jews. Do you think that is because of the Holocaust? [/quote]Forgive me my friend, but I don't think I can discuss this without becoming terribly upset. Not with you of course, but just with the topic. In my mind, there is nothing Jews could ever have done to deserve the Holocaust. It was simply the evil of the world, and they will pay.

I believe that in the future everyone will believe in God, so that would include the Jews.

Yes, this is one of the items of the New Covenant, that everyone will believe in God. In fact, we will know that we have the New Covenant when everyone DOES believe in God.

I bless Hashem that we can have such a loving discussion over these things. It seems like these past months it has been bombing after shooting after church being burned down by haters of one faith or another. It frightens me, as I feel we are entering an another age of fanaticism. Just two days ago, a synogogue only an hour away from me was attacked by a shooter, and the only reason it wasn't a bloodbath was because the gun jammed. Today the news was about a terrorist plot by a muslim extremist to kill people at a rally. I take comfort in knowing there are people like you and I who can coexist so peacefully, who can even care about each other when we discuss our differences.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hello Indigo,

12 “When that time comes, Mikha’el, the great prince who champions your people, will stand up; and there will be a time of distress unparalleled between the time they became a nation and that moment. At that time, your people will be delivered, everyone whose name is found written in the book.

If the Messiah was to bring peace then why does it say after the Messiah at the very end that will be a time of distress unparalleled between the time they became a nation and at that moment.

Micha'el is an archangel, he is NOT the messiah. The time of turmoil precedes the messianic age. The messianic era is clearly a time of unparalleled peace.

Since Christ a great peace amongst nations have fell upon the world

I can't believe you can say this with a straight face. No only has there still be international warfare, but it's gotten bigger and uglier. Think of the Atom Bomb.

I'm sorry, but Jesus simply didn't fulfill the prophecies, thus, he is not the messiah.

Is there a particular messianic prophecy you would like to discuss?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

A religion that was revealed by a Universal Manifestation of God.
The Three Kinds of Prophets

Ah, I see. So you're excluding religions that might have the numbers but that don't fit this criterion...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A religion that was revealed by a Universal Manifestation of God.
The Three Kinds of Prophets

This basically excludes virtually all of the world religions. I think your criteria is too self serving.